I'm so confused! Overtired or Undertired???

[lhanson7251]

So my LO is 12 weeks old and is a chronic 30 min napper!  About 90% of her naps are 30 min on the dot.  She is BF, and has started STTN for the past week (10-11 hrs).  But if she gets OT during the day we have very fitfull night sleep.  We have room darkening shades, sound machine, and swaddled.  She also puts herself to sleep for naps and nighttime in her crib.  There were two days last week that she slept for 2 hrs for her first nap after STTN so I know she can do it.  Both days her A time was 1 h 10 min, she was asleep 2 min after laying her down.  I just can't figure her A times out bc she shows no sleep cues!  Sometimes I'll catch a yawn and try to put her down right away and still a 30 min nap.  SHe's generally a happy girl when she's awake until she finally gets so OT in the late afternoon then she fights all sleep!!! Here is a rough example of our day.

wake/feed 7:20
nap 8:30-9:12 woke fussing fell back to sleep 9:40-10:20
feed 10:30
nap 11:39 (caught a yawn) sleep by 11:45-12:06 woke slept on and off till 1:35
feed 1:45
nap 2:45-3:36
feed 4:00
nap 4:50-5:20
feed 6:00
Top off 6:45 and in bed at 7:10

I'm seriously so confused at what the heck to do.  I have a feeling she needs more A time but she starts to get cranky after being awake longer than an hour in the morning.  HELP!!!!!

[lhanson7251]

Ughhhh I'm so frustrated!  Today I increased her first "A" time to 1.15 min she was asleep by 1.20 still got a 30 min nap!!!!  What on Earth?  She wakes completely at the 30 min mark no matter what I do.  Even in the stroller or if I try to slip her paci right as she stirs she always wakes.  Sometimes she'll fuss around for 30 min then put herself back to sleep for another 30 min. but not lately.  She just tosses and turns her head trying to resettle but only sleeps for 5 mins then does it again over and over.  That can't be restorative can it?   HELP!!!!

[lily_layne]

(((hugs))) Short naps can be frustrating and exhausting. I will see if someone can pop on and take a look at your routine.

[Kellyjs]

Hugs hun, I totally feel your pain, I had a chronic short napper too. It is so frustrating.

How does she wake after these 30mins naps? From the looks of your routine it looks like she's generally waking after a sleep cycle of 40mims? Is that right? I can see the first nap she went back to sleep after a little while so I'm thinking actually she may be just a little UT.

Do you know if anything was different that time she slept for 2hrs first thing? Was she awake slightly longer or shorter that particular morning? This morning when it was slightly longer Awas she wakimg happy? Sorry for all the questions! Xx

[lhanson7251]

Hugs hun, I totally feel your pain, I had a chronic short napper too. It is so frustrating.

How does she wake after these 30mins naps? From the looks of your routine it looks like she's generally waking after a sleep cycle of 40mims? Is that right? I can see the first nap she went back to sleep after a little while so I'm thinking actually she may be just a little UT.

Do you know if anything was different that time she slept for 2hrs first thing? Was she awake slightly longer or shorter that particular morning? This morning when it was slightly longer Awas she wakimg happy? Sorry for all the questions! Xx

The "A" time both days I got her to sleep 2 hrs was 1 hr 10 min but it only worked those two days (I was putting her down closer to 1 hr before).  She actually sleeps 30 mins it takes her about 5 min to fall off to sleep on her own typically.  I'm not in the room so I can't tell for sure.  She usually wakes happy for about 10 min then starts fussing from the first nap but all the others she's fussing/crying.  I've gotten a couple 45-1.15 naps the past couple weeks too are those UT?

This morning she woke and was just quiet and moving around.  She's a pretty happy girl even when she's OT but that makes it hard to read her cues. 

[lhanson7251]

Well today was actually worse.

Wake/feed 7:45
nap 9:08 cried when I laid her down which she never does!  asleep at 9:15 woke at 9:49 fussing/crying, ended up rocking her back to sleep at 10:30, woke up at 11:15.  

I'm assuming she was OT since she cried going down and when she woke.  Thoughts???  She was so happy during her wake time and never yawned or showed she was sleepy.  I just wish she had some cues!

[Kellyjs]

I know you're finding it really tough atm hun, hugs it really does get better. I know that it doesn't feel like it but it really will. Mine only ever showed sleepy cues when she needed a change of scenery 

Sometimes at this age short naps can be developmental and there's not too much we can do, but I think if we try a couple of things we can rule it out ok?

I'm thinking yes, let's rule out any OT. It could well be that she prefers a slightly shorter A first thing compared to the rest of the day. We'll just have to try and see.

How about we go back to the 1hr 10mins. A time for he next couple of days. Then I would actually try a bit of w2s at around 25mins after you think she's fallen asleep. To do this takes a bit of trial and error but I got really good results with it. I think because yours is an independent sleeper you might have to. That being said, if the A time isn't right it won't work, but at least we'll know.

So I would go into her room at the 25mins mark (might even need to move this up to 20mins, but let's try 25 first). I would stroke her cheek or put a hand on her shoulder until you hear her breathing pattern change or she rouses ever so slightly (you don't want to wake her fully), then I'd back out of the room quietly. Do this for the first nap of the day for the next 2 days and see if there's any difference in the nap length. Does all that make sense? Xx

How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

[lhanson7251]

Wel we had a breakthrough this morning.  I put her down at 1.10 min and got a 1.50 min nap!!!!  Then we crashed and burned for nap #2, I was planning on letting her have a slightly longer A time but she suddenly got very cranky at 1.05 so I went ahead and put her down, she went to sleep very quickly and woke fussing after 30 min.  

Back to the drawing board I suppose.  But I will celebrate the 1st nap for sure!!!

[Kellyjs]

Excellent news hun, well done you.

Ok let's stick with that first A time for a while and see what happens. It may be that we have to keep that one slightly shorter and lengthen the next one a little after such a great nap? Xx

[lhanson7251]

OK so I've kept the 1 hr 10 min first A time for several days and it has helped although the naps were closer to 2 hrs and the past couple days they've been more like 1 hr 15-20 min.  So I'm wondering if I should stretch her to 1.15-20?  We still can't seem to get any of her other naps to lengthen though.  She acts sleepy at 45-50 min after waking from that 1st nap which makes no sense to me.  I've tried putting her down at 1 hr, 1 hr 10 min and even stretching to 1 hr 15-20 min.  Always get the same result....30 min nap.  Wakes fussing, I can usually go in and rock her back to sleep after fighting it for about 10 min then she'll sleep for another 45 mins or so.  Then all our naps after that are also 30 min.   She can't stay awake past an hour bc she's so OT by then.  I spend all day nursing then putting her back to sleep.

Should I just shoot for the higher A time and help her finish the nap till she gets past this weird nap issue?  At least that way it would be a schedule and not all over the place.  She's 3 months today!    She's also been sucking on her hands a lot during waketime so I'm wondering if it's time to ditch the swaddle and let her find some self soothing techniques?  (My husband says I never stop thinking about her sleep issues, I must be exhausted) lol. 

One more question...We try not to get her out of her bed in the morning till 7 (30 min either direction).  So today she woke at 6:15 and I left her till 6:30.  Do I count that 15 min she's in bed as A time and put her down after an hour or go ahead and wait till 1 hr 10 min?

[Kellyjs]

Ha ha my DH still says that now!! Hence why I'm always on here as he's bored of listening to me lol 

That's amazing the nap lengthened. Brilliant. I'd hold onto that nap for dear life so yep, I'd try adding on maybe 5 mins the first day, see how it goes then maybe another 5 the next day and hold for another few days.

Right, so we do know she's capable of longer naps don't we, we just need to sort this out for you. I think you're right, she'll be getting OT by the end of the day hence the short A times.

Did you try the w2s hun? The A times must be about right before the second nap so I think w2s could really help.

We never used a swaddle as DD was born during a crazy heat wave here, but there's loads of old posts on the props board where people have asked how to wean the swaddle. You could well try leaving an arm out and seeing if that helps her find her thumb or fingers?

Now wrt the getting out of bed. Tracy believed time awake as A time. I'm not ever going to go against her but I used to count that as downtime and they're not really getting much stimulation are they? I used to go from when she got out of bed but she was around 6mo then. What are you doing atm? If you're counting it from when she's getting out of bed she might be having a slightly longer A time than we think and might help us work out the rest of the day for you?

What did you do that morning if I may ask and how long was the nap? Xx

[lhanson7251]

Ha ha my DH still says that now!! Hence why I'm always on here as he's bored of listening to me lol 

That's amazing the nap lengthened. Brilliant. I'd hold onto that nap for dear life so yep, I'd try adding on maybe 5 mins the first day, see how it goes then maybe another 5 the next day and hold for another few days.

Right, so we do know she's capable of longer naps don't we, we just need to sort this out for you. I think you're right, she'll be getting OT by the end of the day hence the short A times.

Did you try the w2s hun? The A times must be about right before the second nap so I think w2s could really help.

We never used a swaddle as DD was born during a crazy heat wave here, but there's loads of old posts on the props board where people have asked how to wean the swaddle. You could well try leaving an arm out and seeing if that helps her find her thumb or fingers?

Now wrt the getting out of bed. Tracy believed time awake as A time. I'm not ever going to go against her but I used to count that as downtime and they're not really getting much stimulation are they? I used to go from when she got out of bed but she was around 6mo then. What are you doing atm? If you're counting it from when she's getting out of bed she might be having a slightly longer A time than we think and might help us work out the rest of the day for you?

What did you do that morning if I may ask and how long was the nap? Xx

I have tried a couple times to do w2s and failed both times.  At 30 min her eyes pop wide open.  I've even tried to hold her legs during transition since they usually go flying in the air during transition.  She always wakes fully.  I also tried just brushing her cheek and then leaving but she still wakes.  

As far as A time goes if she wakes and I leave her...I usually split the difference so if she wakes after 30 min but puts herself back to sleep for 30 after fussing/playing for 30 I will take about 15 min off her next A time.  Or if she wakes 15 min early and is happy I leave her and put her down an hour later.

We usually have 10-15 min in the swing after eating while I drink my coffee. then some tummy time and cuddles and read a book before our WD time.

[Kellyjs]

How did it go today hun? I'm wondering if we should push the A by another 10 mins wdyt? Xx

[lhanson7251]

How did it go today hun? I'm wondering if we should push the A by another 10 mins wdyt? Xx

Yesterday her first nap was 1 hr, I put her in the crib after 1 hr 10 min thinking it would take her 5 min to fall asleep but her eyes shut almost instantly!  Woke content but started to fuss about 15 min later.  I tried for 1 hr 15 min for the second A time and she fussed when I laid her down for almost 15 min so her wake time was 1 hr 30 min and she woke at the 30 min mark crying.  I rocked her back to sleep for another hour. 3 rd nap was only 25 min  after 1 hr 10 min A time (yawned), majorly OT by now.  Then I put her down an hour later and she went straight to sleep, woke 30 min later.  We also had 2 NF's which she hasn't done in over a month!  So maybe we are in the midst of the 3 month growth spurt? 

Today's first nap was 30 min after 1 hr 15 min A time.  I held her and got her to sleep another 45 min.  Now she's napping again after 1 hr 15 min A time (she was doing the sleepy stare so I put her down, she was asleep w/in 5 min).

We just can't seem to get a nap longer than 30 min for anything but the 1st nap.  I'm beginning to think this is just who is is right now and she will grow out of it once she's more active???

[lhanson7251]

Ok so this morning I pushed her first A time to 1 hr 20 min.  She did wake at 30 min mark but quietly put herself back to sleep within 10 mins!!!  This is huge!

Wake/feed 7:30
Nap 8:50 (put in crib at 8:43, sleep by 8:50)-10:25
Feed 10:30
Nap 11:50 (put in crib at 11:47, sleep by 11:50) *NO CRYING AT ALL!!!!

Fingers crossed she can get through the 30 min transition at this nap, this is our trouble spot.  I'm hoping the problem was that she was UT and the extra wake time will help her get back to sleep.

[Kellyjs]

Amazing, how did the rest of the day go? I think I'd hold that A time for around 3 or so days, see if it stabilises and she stops waking at the 30mins mark. If not, I'd actually increase again a. Little bit xx

[lhanson7251]

Amazing, how did the rest of the day go? I think I'd hold that A time for around 3 or so days, see if it stabilises and she stops waking at the 30mins mark. If not, I'd actually increase again a. Little bit xx

Well she woke at the 30 min mark on the second nap.  She wasn't crying though, playing and cooing for about 15 min.  then I went in gave her her paci and told her it was still sleepy time and rubbed her head for a minute then walked out, she fussed off and on for about 15 min so I went back in and did the same thing, she seemed like she could drop off at any moment but started crying again so I went in one last time tried to soothe her in her crib but she was done being in there so we got up and fed about 15 min early.  I only kept her up 40 mins bc she was super tired since she had been awake since 12:20 and we have to go pick up her brother at 3 and I wanted to give her the chance to at least nap for an hour in her crib.  Do you think she needs a slightly longer A time for the second nap after she takes a good morning nap since she woke happy?

[lhanson7251]

Here is today's EASY so far...

wake/feed 7:30
Nap 8:55-10:25 (she was in her crib at 8:47)
feed 10:30
Nap sleep by 12:00-12:28 (in crib at 11:50) *she woke content but never resettled so I got her up at 1:15
feed 1:20
Nap 2:05-2:35
feed 3:20
Nap 4:05-still sleeping but I can almost guarantee it will be a 30 min nap (if I'm lucky)

I'm just at a complete loss about every nap after the first one?  She seems tired and goes down quickly but just won't get through those transitions at all.  We are having to put her down for bed so early bc she's to OT for a 5th nap.  Bedtime has been 6:30-6:45 the past 2 weeks so she's not getting a full 6 feeds in during the day which has made her start waking at night to eat again.  

[Kellyjs]

Ok, on the plus side it is looking a little better isn't it hun? The CN at the end can be 30mins, that's no.problem at all, we just need to sort that second nap out and those feeds!

I would aim to pd for that second nap after 1hr 30mins A today wdyt? Xx

[lhanson7251]

Ok, on the plus side it is looking a little better isn't it hun? The CN at the end can be 30mins, that's no.problem at all, we just need to sort that second nap out and those feeds!

I would aim to pd for that second nap after 1hr 30mins A today wdyt? Xx

So have her asleep by 1 hr 30 min or start WD then? 

Also she has had crazy night wakeups at random times the past few nights, growth spurt???  Last night she ate 5 oz at 6:30 then bed, and woke at 10:30 crying and ate another 3-4 oz.  Then woke at 5:00 am crying, usually she'll resettle herself till 7:30 but wouldn't, so I tried to feed her and she was very fussy on the breast so I just changed her wet diaper and put her back to bed and she slept till 7:30.

[Kellyjs]

Could well be a GS hun. I would aim to have her in bed not quite asleep by 1hr 30mins so if she takes 5 mins to ss that's fine. WD perhaps 10mins before at 1hr 20mins? Xx

[lhanson7251]

Could well be a GS hun. I would aim to have her in bed not quite asleep by 1hr 30mins so if she takes 5 mins to ss that's fine. WD perhaps 10mins before at 1hr 20mins? Xx

Grrrr. same results, 30 mins on the dot!  She goes down within 5 mins almost always even when she's OT (usually).  But she's starting to get really cranky in the late afternoon/evenings from the terrible naps.

Also this mornings first nap was only 1 hr. 15 min after the 1 hr 30 min A time.  Here is a crazy question, you don't think she can handle longer A time than 1 hr 30 min for the second nap do you?  She refuses a 5th nap which makes her wake time before bed almost 2 hrs!!! 

[lhanson7251]

OK we have had a little improvement the last couple days.  I've stuck with the 1 hr 30 min A time for the first 2 naps her first nap has been 1 hr 20-30 min and the second has been 40-45 min which is better than 30 min!   So I'm thinking she's still UT if she takes a good first nap.  Maybe I'll stretch her to 1 hr. 40 min for her second A time and see what happens?

[shira1206]

Hi there,
I have been following your post since i had the same issue with second nap and 30 min. This is for a 6.5 mo which did have long naps before.
After reading this post i jumped from 2 hours to 2.15 which didnt help and then strait to 2.45 almost 3 even and we are back to around 2h naps.
Just wanted you to know this worked for us and i hope it does also for you

[Kellyjs]

Yes, I would think UT too hun. You could well add on an extra 10mins and see what happens. Especially now things have settled into a predictable pattern for you atm, it will be good to see if that little stretch helps, keep me posted xx

Thanks for popping in shira, it's always really helpful for people to have others in the same boat, and well done on the longer naps!  xx

[lhanson7251]

Well shoot, so the past two days our first nap has been 50 min-1 hr, so I'm assuming that's also UT.  So  need to push A time again!  She's only 3 months, can she handle 1 hr 40-45 min A time?  Should I go ahead and try 1 hr and 40 min for her second nap even though she only napped for 1 hr?

We've also had several NW which is new for her?  Sometimes she resettles and sleeps till morning but she'll eat if I go in there.

[Kellyjs]

She could well do hun, remember the guide is just the average. I would try again and see. But then I would hold that. A time. We don't want to increase too much too quickly as developmentally short naps do happen around now.

When are the NW's hun? Are they the early part of the night or later on? There is a GS around now which sometimes needs an extra feed reintroduced for a little while until they can catch up during the day time xx

[lhanson7251]

She could well do hun, remember the guide is just the average. I would try again and see. But then I would hold that. A time. We don't want to increase too much too quickly as developmentally short naps do happen around now.

When are the NW's hun? Are they the early part of the night or later on? There is a GS around now which sometimes needs an extra feed reintroduced for a little while until they can catch up during the day time xx

Well I've stuck with the 1 hr 30 min bc our morning nap has gone back to 30 min and she's waking fussy and OT so not sure what's happening now.

The NW are never the same.  She woke last night at 11:30 (BT was 7:00) and again at 3:30 (put herself back to sleep after talking to herself for about 30 min). Then woke at 7:30 am.

[Kellyjs]

Oh dear, is she coming up to 4mo now hun? This could be the dreaded 4mo sleep regression rearing it's ugly head xx

[lhanson7251]

She'll be 4 months on Nov 9th.  She's acting like she wants to be out of her swaddle, she fights it, arching her back trying to roll onto her side.  I guess we could try a nap without it and see how she does?  I have a Zipadee zip swaddle transition I could try?  Her first wake up last night was gas (about 45 min after she was put down) then she woke at 10:00 bc she got her hands up to her mouth and was sucking on them so I reswaddled her before I went to bed, then she was up crying at 11:30 I tried to resettle her but she wanted to eat.  Then she was up again at 3:30 just talking and happy so I left her and she fell back to sleep till 7:30. 

I was hoping to wean the swaddle next month, trying to let that startle reflex calm as much as possible.  But maybe it's hurting more than it's helping at this point.  She can roll both ways but doesn't hardly ever.  She tends to get stuck still hence why I'm not looking forward to unswaddling her.

[Kellyjs]

Sorry hun, I haven't much experience wrt the swaddle, but there's loads of posts on the props board where people have had advice from others about ditching it.

I do think part of this is the start of the 4mo SR, which unfortunately we just have to ride out. Just be as consistent as you can and remember it is just a phase, it will pass xx

[lhanson7251]

Well I'm back and we are still struggling with naps and now she's waking at night too and having early WU's.  Grrrrrr.  I've pushed her morning A time to 1 hr 45 min the past couple days and she's taking a better morning nap.  Here is yesterday's EASY.

Woke 6:20 (playing/talking/happy, left till 7:00)
Feed 7:30
Nap 8:03-9:30
Feed 9:30
Nap 11:15-11:45 (woke fussy)
Feed 12:30
Nap 1:45-2:20 (in ergo)
Feed 3:15
Nap 5:15-5:45 (tried to lay down at 4:30 but she wouldn't settle, ended up rocking her to sleep)
Feed 6:15 and in bed at 6:30
Woke fussing at 1:30-2:30 offered paci and resettled twice, then woke talking/playing at 5:45 I fed her once she started to fuss (one side only) and she went back to sleep for another 1 hr 15 min.

Our WU time used to alway be 7:30 and it's slowly gotten earlier and earlier bc of her early BT bc of short naps all day.

I have a few questions:

-Can I keep her A time 1 hr 45 min after a 30-45 min nap if she seems content?
-Should I push her second A time longer after a 1 hr 30 min nap? Break the UT/OT cycle?
-She has been sucking on her hands alot during her A time, should we drop the swaddle and let her try to self soothe with her hands?

[Kellyjs]

How old is she now hun?

Yes I'd keep that firts A for a few days considering she's now napping longer. Actually yes, I'd consider pushing that second. A by another 10mins too and see what that brings.

She's getting near on 12hrs ONS. It would be unrealistic to expect 13hrs to bring you back to a 7.30am wu. It may be that you have to push the whole routine on like we do with daylight savings. I'll post a link for you to have a read through xx

How to Adjust to Daylight Savings

[lhanson7251]

Well when she was napping better she could make it to 7:00 or 7:30.  But now she's fighting the fourth nap HARD so we often have to do an early BT. 

She is actually 4 months old today.  We've been doing 1 he 30 A time for several weeks now and gradually pushed the first one to 1 hr 45 min.

[lhanson7251]

All hell is breaking loose!  Naps are all 30 min long now (4 of them) and we are having erratic night wakings, early morning wake up (talking and babbling).  I need help ASAP! 

We stopped swaddling this week so I'm sure that is some of the issue but she was actually fighting naps harder with the swaddle but now her morning nap has shortened because she won't sleep through the transition without her swaddle.  She's sooooo OT by the end of the day and won't let us extend her naps anymore, she arches her back and fights us.  Here is our easy from the past two days.

Woke/eat 7:00
Nap 8:45-9:30
Feed 10:15
Nap 11:00-11:45 (took a bit to settle closer to a 30 min nap)
Feed 1:00
Nap 1:27-2:15 (took a bit to settle closer to a 30 min nap)
Feed 3:30
Nap 3:50 (slept 4:15-4:45)
Feed 6:15, in bed 6:30 sleeping at 6:45
Night wake up 12:30 and 2 (gave paci/shhh) NF 4:00

Woke 7:00
Nap 8:40-9:10
Feed 10:00
Nap 11:04-11:35
Feed 12:45
Nap 1:15-1:50
Feed 3:15
Nap 3:45-4:15
Feed 6:15 Bed 6:45 sleep by 7:00
Woke fussing 10:30, wouldn't resettle till 11:30 (I think gas maybe was the culprit)  EW 5:15 talking and playing, I fed at 5:50 and laid her back down she slept 6:45-7:55

[lhanson7251]

So today's first nap was better

woke 7:55
nap in crib at 9:35 sleep 9:40-10:48 (woke happy)

Now here is the difficult part, how long should I keep her up before nap #2?

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply hun. This definitely does sound like 4mo SR shenanigans. Just be consistent ok and it will get better.

Great news the first nap went better. I would now stick to your 1hr 45mins A. In future, perhaps when she short naps you could aim to reduce the next A a little by 10mins or so and see if that helps?

This regression really does suck hun. If it makes you feel any better the next really bad one isn't until they're 18mo. Those 2 for us were the worst. Also my DD went on nap strike at 4mo for a week with absolutely no naps but an odd 10mins here and there so you are actually doing really well ok? Much better than I did. Just try and be as consistent as can be, if she does short nap reduce the next A a bit but not by much and try again. Above all repeat the phrase 'it is just a phase, we will get through this' xx

[lhanson7251]

Back again...we've been trying to ride out the 4 mo SR business and it is better but we are still struggling with naps.  I've tried to stretch her A time to 2 hrs which is fine but she still needs 4 naps a day since they are still 30 mins long.  I think she may need another extend on her first A time but she seems to fight going down and wakes crying which leads me to believe she's OT then.  But the fact that she was doing 1.45 min with no problems tells me she's just giving me false signals.   Today I laid her down at 2 hrs and she fell asleep about 8-10 mins later so we'll see what this nap holds. (fingers X)  Here is the last two days EASY.

woke-7:45
nap 1-9:45-10:15 rocked back to sleep 10:40-11:10
feed-11:30
nap 2-1:00-1:30 (was headed home from store to put her down and she fell asleep, she was yawning at store after only 1 hr 30 min A time)
feed-2:30
nap 3-3:45-4:15 (she was trying to fall asleep while eating so I laid her down at 3:20 took her a while to settle)
feed- 5:00
nap 4- 5:30-6 (wasn't planing on giving her another nap but she was sooo crabby and OT so I rocked her for this nap)
feed 7:00 in bed 7:30
NF 4:30

woke 7:20
nap 1-9:15-9:45 rocked 10:20-10:50
feed- 11:30
nap 2- 12:45-1:15 tried to resettle but she wasn't having it!
feed- 2:30
nap 3- 3:05-3:50 (woke happy and seemed rested, so we skipped the last nap)
feed 4:30 (just a couple oz. to hold her till BT)
feed 6:15 in bed by 6:40
NF 11:45 (she hasn't woke this early to feed in a while)

woke-6:15 (left in crib till 6:30)
nap 1-8:25-9:00 rocked 9:20-10:05
feed-10:30
nap 2-12:15-12:45 woke happy but would not resettle!
feed-1:45
nap 3-laid down at 2:30 to prevent OT evening and she's in there babbling/fussing. 

She is generally happy when she's awake even on such little sleep.  Problem is she gets so sleepy and tries to fall asleep while eating or in her carseat.  I can't just stay home all day I have a toddler but if I go anywhere she crashes, I try to talk to her and jiggle the seat but she's just to tired from not napping well.  As far as NF's go, she was STTN before the 4 mo SR....grrrrr.  Now she's wide awake at 4 am talking and playing then by 5 am she starts fussing/crying and wants to eat to go back to sleep.  She could easily go 4 hours between feeds but due to naps being so short it doesn't work so great.  Also, we just got some baby cereal to start this week.  Hoping that helps her too.  She will be 5 months on Dec. 9th.  Do you think we need to push again to 2 hr 15-20 min?  The more I push the harder it is for her to fall asleep it seems.  I'm so lost!!!!

[Kellyjs]

Sorry I think I missed your post  . Please accept my apologies.

I do think she might need a little more A time. Last time she had 30mims naps and we extended it was better wasn't it? It's around now they like to extend by 15mims every few weeks and it's hard to keep up! Most of the time it seems she's waking happy? And you're managing to get her back off eventually which leads me to think an extension is in order.

The fact she's trying to wu early in the morning as well makes me think that first A needs extending too. How do you fancy trying the extension by 15mins then trying a bit of w2s around 20mins after she falls asleep wdyt? I know you've tried it before but another round won't hurt. I think if we get a good first nap in it might help you later on in the day.

Do remember solids aren't for helping them sleep through. Actually they do the opposite as they fill up on them and don't take as much milk which is nutritionally better and more calorie dense. I've seen it so many times where mummas rush to start solids thinking it'll help them sleep through and it actually gets worse! Just something to bear in mind ok? I know you're just planning on cereal, but try it an hour after a milk feed and preferably in the morning and not at night or evening as it might cause disturbed nights due to wind xx

How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

[lhanson7251]

Here is todays EASY, since pushing her she def is acting like she wants even more but I'm trying not to push to fast.  The W2S don't work but I think I may have luck with just holding down her legs at the 30 min mark. 

woke 6:50
nap1 9:05-9:46 rocked back to sleep and back to bed from 10:15-11:15!!!
feed 11:30
nap 2 1:33-2:03 (took 10 min to fall asleep, played/talked) woke happy, wouldn't resettle
feed 2:45
nap 3 4:15 (took 15 min to fall asleep, no crying)

Is it crazy for her to be able to handle close to 2 hrs 30 min of A time at this age?  She wasn't interested at all in the oatmeal so we will be waiting a bit for that.  Next month we will start letting her play with some table food as we do BLW mostly.  She very interested in OUR food but I want to wait just a tad longer.

[Kellyjs]

No not crazy at all 

I do wonder as it's been extended so far that perhaps a little OT has crept in? It's either that or she's trying to extend close enough to hit the 3-2? All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[lhanson7251]

Well overall I'd say it's going better.  She still isn't taking a proper nap by herself but I'm at least able to extend the first one and she's dropped the 4th nap since we've been able to push the A time! YAY!!!!!  She's also stopped waking to eat at the 2:00-5:00 hours (it was always random).  Now she wakes at 5:30-6 but is not crying out but putting herself back to sleep.  Last night she actually STTN 7:30-7:15!!!!!!!  We are still getting 30-45 min naps for the second nap and she won't resettle.  So I need to work on that still.  I think she may need more A time but I'm trying to extend slowly bc she easily gets OT.  Here is the EASY from the last two days.

woke 7:15
nap 1-9:30 sleep 9:45-10:30 extended 10:45-11:30
feed 11:45
nap 2- 1:25 sleep 1:30-2:15
feed 2:45
nap 3- 3:55 sleep 4:30-5 (I had to end up rocking her to sleep bc she was OT from the short 2nd nap)
feed 5:30 just a snack to get her to bedtime
feed 7:15 bed 7:45 nf 5:30

woke 7:10 wouldn't take a full feed since she ate at 5:30
feed 9:15 4 oz
nap 1- 9:30-10:00 extended 10:30-11:30
feed 11:45
nap 2-1:25 sleep 1:40-2:18
feed 3:00
nap 3- 4:15 sleep 4:30-5:00
feed 5:30
feed 7:00 bed 7:30
STTN!

I think she may be alot like her brother when it comes to sleep.  They both were chronic 30 min nappers, and my son dropped naps very early.  He did the 2-1 transition right after his 1st bday and when he did two naps the morning nap was usually the only sure thing the pm nap was typically around 45 mins.  She doesn't show tired signs at all, only OT signs which aren't helpful at all. HA  I think our best bet is to keep going forward slowly to get to the 3-2 around 6 months.  I figure I can add A time every week this month to get her to 3 hours by 6 months. WDYT???

[Kellyjs]

Wow, yay! Bet that sleep felt great for you both 

I think you've got a good plan there. Yes, I do think that second nap needs pushing out by the looks of it. They do like to keep us on their toes don't they?! Xx

[lhanson7251]

Well we were doing beautifully for about 2 weeks on a 2 hr A time.  She was having 2 1.5 hr naps and a 30 min evening nap.  But now she's waking 30-45 mins into the nap, talking/playing for 15-30 min then sleeping for another 30-45 min.  Which in turn gets her OT for the next nap.  So I assume we need to push the first A time again?  She will be 6 months on 1/9.

[Kellyjs]

Yes definitely try and push the A time. I'd add 15mins onto the first two A times, hold for a few days then we can reassess. Remember they like their A time pushing quite a bit now, by 6/6.5mo the average is 3hrs A! Not saying you jump to this yet, but see the difference?

You might need to cap the last nap further too and they usually need that last A reducing if it's a shorter nap. It's all in that 3/2 transition link I posted before xx

[lhanson7251]

Oh man these naps are soooo tricky!  One day she naps great then the next 30 min!  I've tried to get her as close to 2 hr 30 min A time as possible but some days she's rubbing her eyes and arching her back wanting to go to sleep so bad!  We are also having early morning WU's again!  She's going to sleep at 7-7:30 and waking anywhere bt 5:30-6 talking/whining.  She use to put herself back to sleep but the past week I have to go in feed her then she'll go back to sleep for another 30-60 min.  I know she needs to be awake longer but man she fights it hard!

[Kellyjs]

It is tough, it really is, you have my upmost sympathy there.

I'd check for teething too as this is a prime age for it! Xx