5 Month Old Nap Issues!

[jhs4ess]

Hi Everyone,

I've had nap issues with my LB since he was about 2 months old and I'm guilty of doing anything and everything to get him to have a decent amount of sleep during the day. I ended up having to walk around with him in his carrier to get him to sleep and then hold him in my arms and even then he wouldn't sleep longer than 45mins!

Last week I decided enough is enough so I have started doing PUPD with him in his cot, today was Day 2 and there wasn't any improvement from yesterday. I'm struggling with the EASY routine because firstly he isnt hungry first thing in the morning because he still has a NF between 3 and 5am, and then goes back to sleep until 7ish. He won't even entertain the idea of eating until at least 8am. Then it is taking a long time to get him to sleep using PUPD and then he is waking up after 20/30mins and no amount of PUPD will get him back to sleep. He looks as though he's about to settle back down and then he just starts chatting and playing as though he has gone passed the tiredness.

Because of this he is often ready for another nap when he is supposed to be having his next feed! Today I was trying to keep him up for the recommended length of activity time despite his short naps but he ended up so overtired!

Lastly and the thing that confuses me no end! At bedtime, I put him into his cot awake and he just goes to sleep! He does use a dummy but if he loses it he can settle himself. Last night I put him down at 18:15 and he was asleep by 18:30. He then slept until 04:45 when he woke for a feed. I don't understand if he can put himself to sleep and resettle himself when he wakes at night why he is struggling during the day?

Any advice anybody can offer would be greatly appreciated!

[lily_layne]

That's actually quite normal for an LO to be able to self-settle at night but not at naps - day and night sleep are controlled by different parts of their brains.

Can you post a typical day for me? It's possible you need a routine change as well as doing PU/PD.

[jhs4ess]

Oh really? I didn't know that, that explains that!

TBH we don't really have a typical day as we've been completely baby led. He tends to get up around 7pm and we start bedtime routine any time between 17:30 and 18:15. We've been trying to make it later but because of his nap issues he's ready for bed by then. He feeds every 3.5 to 4 hours and i've just been getting him to nap in his carrier whenever I thought he needed it.

The last 3 days i've been trying to use the 4 hour routine in the books but this is where I am having difficulty because of his napping. Today has been a funny day anyway because he woke up at 5:30 and I couldn't get him back to sleep but this is where we are so far:

05:30 wake up, left him in his cot to see if he would settle, gave him his dummy after about 20 mins. Still didn't settle, left him again and he just chatted and played until 06:50 when he began to fuss so I got him up.

06:50 Get up and nappy change.

07:00 Eat

07:45 Because he'd woken so early and was getting cranky I took him upstairs to start wind down.

08:00 Put him in his cot, after a few mins of chatting he started crying so went in and started PUPD. It took 15mins to get him to sleep.

08:15 - 08:35 Sleep - He looked as though he was trying to go back to sleep (video monitor) so I left him for 15mins until he started to fuss, went and tried to shush him but he wasn't having any of it so I got him up at 9am.

09:00-09:45 Activity - By this time he was showing tired signs and getting cranky so I decided to try for another nap before his feed. Took him upstairs and put him down at 10am. It only took 10 mins of PUPD to get him to sleep.

10:10-10:40 Sleep - Again he looked like he might go back to sleep so I left him but after 10 mins he was just playing.

11am Eat.

11:20 - 12:45 Activity

12:40 Wind Down - 20 mins of PUPD

13:10 - 13:30 Sleep. Again looked as though he wanted to go back to sleep so left him to it. He started crying after 10 mins.

13:40 - 14:10 PUPD He started to settle at 14:00 so I stayed in the room, looked as though he was dropping off but then all of a sudden he was wide awake again and chatting so I got him up.

He's now had activity until I feed him at 15:00 and I don't know when to try him again! He's having short activity periods because of the short naps but I don't know if I'm making it worse. I'm not sure why he keeps waking up after 20-30mins, do you think he is undertired or overtired?!

Thank you for your help!

[jhs4ess]

OK so he was very drowsy on his bottle and had been up for nearly 2 hours after a 20min nap so I tried him for a nap again at 15:20 and he's just cried for half an hour, worse than the first time I tried PUPD. He got himself in such a state he couldn't stop coughing so I had to stop. Feeling like a failure :-(

[lily_layne]

I don't have time for a detailed post right now but just needed to give you hugs and say you are NOT a failure! Remember that it's just sleep and a baby that isn't napping the way you want is not a judgment on your competency as a mother. You are doing the best that you can and that's all any of us can do.

I will try to pop back on tonight and look over your routine and help make a plan.

[jhs4ess]

Thank you so much!

[lily_layne]

The short naps sound like OT to me. Do you feel that you have the stamina for PU/PD or do you want to try something gentler? Have you tried sh/pat at all? Has he ever napped longer than 45 minutes? It is possible he may just be a short napper but we'll have to try getting him on a good routine before we know for sure.

If you're feeling that you can handle it (and if you have some help) I would try something like this:
WU: around 7
S: 9 (or 8:45 if he seems tired) - start PU/PD aiming for sleep around 9:15
If he wakes sooner than 10:15/10:30 try PU/PD for 30 minutes
S: 12:30/12:45 - start PU/PD aiming for sleep at 1. Try to get at least to 12:30 regardless of first nap. If he wakes sooner than 2:30, do PU/PD
CN: 4:30 - This meant to be a short nap of 30/45 minutes. Here I would give yourself a break and use the stroller or carrier. It's a good nap to get out for a bit of fresh air.
BT: It seems like you've done a good job adjusting BT based on how naps went and I would continue to do the same but aiming for no later than 7.

What do you think?

I also recommend reading over the links here: Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

[jhs4ess]

I think I can do PUPD. I've tried sh/pat but it doesn't calm him down from crying. Once he is calm enough lying in his cot I put a hand on his chest and do the shushes. He has mostly napped for 45mins since he was about 2 months old but he wakes up happyish the first time but not the 2nd. I have managed to get him to nap for 1.5-2hours in the afternoon while holding him and rocking him through the transitions.

I don't know if you'll able to respond in time, not sure of the time difference but he has woken up at 6am this morning and I couldn't get him back to sleep so I've got him up when he started to fuss at 6:40 . Would you bring the nap times forward an hour to account for this? If I keep him going to 08:45 he'll just be OT again?

Thanks again.

[lily_layne]

I would put him down half an hour earlier at most. You are trying to set his body clock on teach him when to sleep so shifting times too much will interfere with that.

[jhs4ess]

That's what I did thank you. Both naps yesterday he woke up after 20mins and I couldn't get him back to sleep. This morning I think we've hit regression because it took me about 35mins to get him down and then he woke up after 20mins again. He looked like he was trying to resettle so I left him for 10mins but he started to look like he was getting frustrated so I went in and put my hand on his chest and started shushing but after a couple of minutes he just started playing! Didn't even get the opportunity to do PUPD because he wasn't upset.

I'm really struggling to get him through the day and to stick to the routine because I can't get a decent length sleep out of him. I feel like he's just getting more and more overtired. His nightimes have been more disturbed the last two nights too. 

Any idea where I'm going wrong? Or is it just a case of keeping going?

[jhs4ess]

Just thought I would post our day today in case it is helpful:

WU & E: 07:30
S: PUPD from 09:25 - 09:55 Slept until 10:15 unable to get him back to sleep.
E: 11:30
S: PUPD from 12:30-12:40 Slept until 13:00 unable to get him back to sleep.
S: Took him for a walk for a change of scene to get him to next feed and he fell asleep in pram at 14:30-15:10
E: 15:30
S: 16:30-17:10 in carrier.
Bath: 17:30
E: 18:00
Bedtime: 18:15

[lily_layne]

It is normal for there to be a regression after a few days. How many days have you been doing it now?

I'm not sure if the best course it to keep going as is or try something different. I will ask a few others to come take a look and see what they think.

[jhs4ess]

Today was Day 4. He actually went down OK for the 2nd nap but again woke up early. Although we put him down for bed at 6:15 he didn't manage to get to sleep until 7pm which is unusual. Thank you, I'll await your advice :-)

[jhs4ess]

Just thought i'd post our day today in case it helps. I just carried on with trying to do the routine you suggested, this is what we managed:

Woke up: 06:30
Got him up at: 07:00
E: 07:00
S: 08:30 - 09:00 Went to sleep completely independently within 5 minutes! Unfortunately still woke up 30mins later and couldn't get back to sleep.
E:11:00
S: 12:20-12:40 Again went to sleep completely independently but woke after 20 mins. He tried for 15 mins to get back to sleep. At 12:55 I thought he had actually managed it but at 13:00 he was awake again.
S:14:00-14:40 In pram on a walk.
E 15:00
CN: 16:30-17:00 in carrier.

Bath: 17:30
E:18:00
BT: 18:15 but he didn't manage to get to sleep until 19:30 :-(

I'm hoping he'll actually sleep in until 7am tomorrow morning as its the weekend and my husband won't be getting up early for work and disturbing him.

[lily_layne]

That's great that he went down for his first nap independently. That's good progress!

Have you ever tried wake to sleep? You would go in about 20/25 minutes after he's gone to sleep and wake him a bit. This "resets" the sleep cycle. You can also just try to be there and hold him through any jolts or sh/pat as soon as he starts to wake to try to get him to sleep before he wakes fully.

How dark is his room?

[lily_layne]

Here's a good link on w2s:
How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

[becj86]

Hi, just popping on to be another set of eyes.

I'm wondering if you've got a discomfort issue - 20min naps are classically overstimulation (not unlikely considering PUPD to get to sleep) or discomfort. Does your LO have any medical issues like reflux?

How old is he now? What's your day looking like routine-wise? Can you include night sleep and any night wakings? Just wondering if your A times are out - hard to know for sure when naps are so short.

[Shiv52]

From your previous EAS you seem to be doing 2 hour A time?  That is likely too short at 5 months and you may need to push things forward x

[jhs4ess]

Hi, Thanks for your replies. We've had a couple of horrendous days and nights to be honest. I feel like by trying to improve things I've made them worse!

He usually goes to bed ok but he's been a complete nightmare taking 60-90mins to get to sleep. He usually has a night feed between 2 and 3am sometimes later but he's been waking earlier between 12 and 2am and then waking at 5:30 not wanting to go back to sleep, I realised this morning it was because he was hungry. I think because I moved him to 4 hourly feeds he wasn't taking enough during the day so today I moved him back to 3.5hourly feeds so he would get an extra bottle in.

Yesterday he went down ok for two naps but woke after 20mins again. Today when I tried to put him in his cot I had to PUPD and it was even worse than the first day, he seemed to be settling but whenever I went to put him down he just screamed even when he was practically falling asleep on my shoulder when I picked him up. In the end it was nearly his feed time so I had to give up. It was awful, I felt like i'd made him cry for no reason.

After he'd fed his dad took him for a walk in the carrier and he slept for 40mins which got him to bed time and thankfully he went to sleep straight away at 6pm. I'm hoping with the extra milk he's had we'll be back to our normal 1 night feed and 7am wake up. Then I can try again tomorrow!

Don't know if it makes a difference but he has only just turned 5 months and he does seem to get tired before 2 hours A time first thing, and then because he has a rubbish nap he can't make 2 hours for subsequent A times.

I really don't know what to do for the best. If I stick rigidly to the times he just gets more and more tired but I don't want to confuse him by resorting to the carrier all the time 

[jhs4ess]

Sorry forgot to say he doesn't have any health issues, he's been a really healthy baby since birth.

We have a black out blind in his room but it's not the greatest so it isn't properly dark in his room during the day although we don't have any toys etc in or around his cot he'll pretty much nosy at anything!

[becj86]

At 5 months, the A times should be 2:15 to 2:30, not less than 2hr. Does he sleep well in the carrier? As in a long nap? Seeming to get tired before 2hr in the AM at this age is generally either habitual (used to sleeping then) or boredom (if you change activity, LO may perk back up again and play for a while longer). If he does sleep extended naps in the carrier, I'd suggest you look at doing something like this with naps in the carrier then sleep training once the routine is solid and his body is used to sleeping at those times:
7 - wake
9:30 - nap
11 - wake
1:30 - nap
3 - wake
5:30 - CN (30 min)
6 - wake
7:30 - asleep for the night
(shift as needed to accommodate ideal WU/BT and/or actual WU)

If you're bottle feeding, as you move feeds apart, you make them a bit bigger so they're not losing out on calories and have enough time in between to get hungry for the next feed.

Waking after 20min - something's not right. If you're sure he's not in any pain, think about the possibility of overstimulation... what is he doing during A time? Is a TV on (had to turn that off in our house as DS just was so wired)? What sort of wind down are you doing? How does he behave when you do it?

[jhs4ess]

He doesn't sleep well anywhere at any time during the day. He used to sleep longer if I transferred him into my arms from the carrier but even that doesn't work well any more.

He's already on 7-8oz per feed, when I've moved him to every 4 hours this week he wasn't finishing every bottle so how can I get him to take more?

Surely if he was in pain he'd be waking frequently at night too and crying? So I think it must be over stimulation but I'm not sure how to keep him entertained for 2.5 hours and avoid this.  He will usually play on the floor by himself with some toys, we'll sing or read for a while, he sits in his bouncy chair while I get a shower or do chores. He has a jumperoo but he only uses that for 10mins once or twice a day max. I try and take him out everyday even if it's just for a walk.

For wind down about 20mins before nap time he'll sit quietly on my knee. Although he's started trying to wriggle away to explore! Then we go upstairs to my room which has the curtains drawn and I change him quietly. I then give him his dummy and blanket. I tried sitting with him then but he's not keen so I've just been putting him down about 5mins before he's meant to be asleep.

[Shiv52]

Waking at 20 mins could also just be him settling into the nap and rousing and not knowing how to get himself back over or not being tired enough.  Have you tried putting his dummy in at about 15 mins and resettling to see if that will get him over the 20 minute mark.

I do Think the key is to up those A times. Teaching independent sleep and resettling naps always works better when a baby has enough A time or a little OT. If mine were UT at all I'd no chance. Even a 10 minute nap revived the wee monkeys.

[becj86]

Yes, I'd agree with Shiv - doesn't appear there's anything particular causing OS in that lot. Perhaps try replugging the dummy and/or just holding your hand on him around that 15-20min mark to help him get through rather than waiting for him to get worked up.

[jhs4ess]

Thank you both. Got another 20min nap this morning and he's just gone down for his 2nd nap. I took him up after he'd been awake about 2hrs 20min and he was asleep with 10-15mins. I'll see what happens with this one and then tomorrow I'll start staying in there to see if I can resettle. I have tried before but I thought I was more of a distraction than a help but I'll give it another go.

He doesn't tend to lose his dummy in the 20mins he's asleep and he's very good at resettling himself with or without the dummy during the night. Do you think it would help to try and make his room pitch black or as near as I can?

[Shiv52]

Some find pitch black helps. I never did it with either of mine. Just did a darkish room and it was always fine.

Just so you know 5 months was the WORST time for naps with both my girls. Truly I shudder thinking of it especially my first. I thought I was going to go insane. When she used to wake early sometimes I just wanted to scream or cry!!!!

[jhs4ess]

Good to know! Did you just keep going and eventually they got the hang of it?

[Shiv52]

Yeah after a few weeks naps lengthened and it was amazing!!!

[jhs4ess]

Oh I hope so!! I won't know what to do with myself when he actually sleeps 

[Shiv52]

If you're like me you'll drink lots of tea and watch mindless telly!!! 

How'd today go?

[jhs4ess]

Hi, Sorry for not replying sooner. He had his 3rd lot of jabs and we had a really bad night which just threw everything out for a couple a days.

He's still going down okish - I have to stay with him and shush but haven't had to do PUPD for a while. But he is still waking up after 20 mins :-( I've tried leaving him completely alone, letting him try to resettle for a while and then going in and starting to shush and being there when he wakes up to start immediately but nothing works. He just tries to go back to sleep for a while and then gives up.

There's no way he can make it through the day on such little sleep so I'm having to use the carrier to do extra naps but even then he doesnt sleep for that long.

He seems to be going through a growth spurt too because i've had to give him an extra feed the last two nights. Last night he polished off 8oz at 11pm and then another 6oz at 3:30. He wasn't that interested in his 7am bottle then though!!

[lily_layne]

Is he getting close to 6 months now? He may be ready for solids. I have 2 hungry LOs who were on solids before 6 months. Is it possible he's waking from naps hungry? When are you feeding him? Have you ever tried a top-up feed with him? DS has always preferred to eat right before a nap rather than when he wakes.

[jhs4ess]

No he's only just turned 5 months but funnily enough we have decided to start weaning him this weekend. He is a big boy, in 9-12month clothes already and he seems ready so we're going to give it a go.

I doubt he's hungry, he fed at 7am, woke from his nap around 9am this morning and didn't feed until 10:30 and he wasn't asking for it then. What do you think?

[jhs4ess]

I should say I put him down early for his nap because he woke up at 6:15 so although he didn't feed until 7am, he did have a 2hr 15 min A time.

[lily_layne]

It doesn't sound like hunger but it may be worth a shot feeding him right when he wakes to see if he goes back to sleep. When DS started solids is when he ended up nursing before naps. I would offer after a nap before solids but he just wasn't interested.