Help!!!

[MamaCooke]

Hello, I am new to this site. I am not computer savvy nor have I read the book but a good friend of mine referred me to this forum so here I am and I hope I'm doing this right! Anyhow, I have an 8 month old that up until recently took his naps on my bed as I nursed him to sleep. As he is crawling now this will no longer work because when he awakens he can fall off the bed. For his age what method do you recommend I try? My friend said something about a pick up put down method which will not work as I have a bumb wrist from doing that enough already and have developed tendonitis. Thanks in advance!

[Emami]

Are you looking to break the feeding to sleep, or just the practicalities of him sleeping on your bed since he's mobile now? Feeding to sleep isn't a BW method, but if it works for you and you don't want to change it could you try feeding him in a comfy chair in his room and laying him down asleep in the crib instead of your bed? If you want to change everything then we can come up with a plan for you too

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

A few questions:
Where do you plan for LO to nap now since he cannot nap on your bed?
Do you have a cot set up?
Have you already started to put him to nap in the cot or something/where else?
Where does he sleep at night and are you also ready to change this?

I totally understand the tendinitis, I had it myself (not from PUPD which I did not use but from carrying/holding) and know a few parents IRL who have been in such pain from holding their LOs.

Can you tell us what you hope for?  What is your goal? For example do you wish to remove the feed-to-sleep habit and have him self settle in his own cot for naps and night sleep or did you have another idea in mind?

I think the gentle removal plan might be suitable for you. There's some info here ('the no cry sleep' solution by Pantley fits wonderfully with the BW EASY routine and ethos) for you to have a look through and familiarise yourself with the general idea.
Gentle Removal Plan
You might even feel ready to go ahead and start once you've read it - but we are happy to support you through the process and help find ideas to adapt to your personal circumstances too.  I tend to feel that with biggish changes like this it's good to get to grips with the idea and feel 'ready' before setting out so that you have an idea what to expect.
Let us know if this method sounds right for you and your baby.

Meanwhile, do also feel free to have a browse around the site too. There is lots of BW information here in the various FAQ sections so you can acquaint yourself with the general ethos here.  you might also be interested in joining the Birth Clubs to chat with other mums
Birth Clubs 0-18mths

[MamaCooke]

Hello ladies! Thanks so much for your responses. Yes, I would like to change things. Currently he nurses to sleep in bedroom then I lay him in crib. He might wake a little with transition but is sleepy enough I suppose to go to sleep. Then in the middle of the night whenever he wakes I take him out of crib and we cosleep in the bed in his room and he nurses to sleep. I'm not necessarily against the idea of this since I can pretty much go straight away to sleep too but I understand that it might confuse him if then for nap time he has to learn to self sooth to go to sleep (which is what I'd like to do-very gently) since I can't nap with him during the day as it's the only time I have to get anything done. And just to correct the misunderstanding I got tendonitis not from the pick up put down method (just from from the usually physical motions of having a baby) but I feel that method is out considering it would further aggravate it. So I guess my goal is for us to have him learn to learn to self settle slowly and gently for all accounts in his crib. Right now since naps in my bed are out of the question he's been napping either in stroller (this is the other way he's always napped) or nurse to sleep in my lap and then to crib but this has been pretty unsuccessful even though that's what works for bedtime-idk? Thank you!

[MamaCooke]

Also, as much as pantlys gentle removal plan sounds nice and gentle I'm not sure if it will work because hubby puts babe down 3 nights of the week while I'm working. He says the baby doesn't slow sucking motion down with bottle as he would like while at the breast but gobbles up the milk very fast and cries out (not because of hunger) wide awake where hubby then picks baby out of crib and lays down with him in big bed in babys room until 5 mins later when baby is asleep he puts back in crib. Obviously we would like to move away from this current method too. What method do you suggest for dad? Also would it be confusing to use one method for dad and gentle removal plan for mom?? Probably I would think. If we feed him be it bottle or breast close to bedtime in dim room and wait for babe to look tired then what?

[Emami]

I do think it's important to be consistent whatever method you and your husband choose. I know PUPD is potentially an issue with tendonitis, but looking at the age adaptations there is minimal picking up for 8 months+, it is mostly using your voice and comforting in the crib.
How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

So after his BT routine and feed just give him a kiss, say goodnight, out him down and leave. You never know, he might surprise you, but most likely he will cry.  Make sure you give him a minute so you know he really needs you rather than interrupting him he's mantra crying and trying to settle.  But given that he's never been an independent sleeper he will probably get upset, so you go back in and start PUPD as described in the link.  How do you feel about that as a plan?

[creations]

I'd add to the above - you can either go straight for it (quicker but likely harder work) or you could begin by using Pantly's gentle removal plan to break the feed to sleep habit over a period of days first (the steps such as taking him off the breast drowsy rather than fully asleep even if he still falls to sleep in arms or by you on the bed and you move him to the cot asleep for a while) and then take on the move to the cot as a second stage (begin to put him in the cot drowsy instead of asleep, keep hands on him initially until he falls to sleep).  Going in two stages like this will take longer but may be more comfortable for you overall. It depends how you feel about it.
Dad is actually a bit further along the process due to LO not feeding to sleep for him.  He can move right on with the next step.
For both you and dad I'd suggest introducing a key phrase such as "it's OK, I'm here, it's sleepy time".  Dad can do this right now when LO is falling to sleep on the bed with him then when he makes the move to putting down in the cot instead of laying on the bed with him he continues to use this phrase whilst laying LO down and keeping hands on him. I would also think Dad can begin to be a little less snuggly when laying on the bed, so keeping a hand on LO but not all cuddled up tight, this will get LO used to feeling less contact in readiness for the move to the cot (whilst awake instead of asleep).

Whilst it may be confusing to read one method and then another it is fine to combine methods if it works for you and LO.

[MamaCooke]

Thank you thank you! I think the best plan for us considering babe falls asleep to both breast and bottle is to stick to one plan and with my bad tendonitis skipping the whole PU/PD method (unfortunately). We were going to try feeding babe a little earlier (like half hour) before bed out in living room, instead of bedroom, with dim lighting (just xmas lights) after bath. Then lay him in bed afterwards when he seems sleepy with rubbing eyes or fuses. Maybe incorporate a few other key bedtime rituals to that like ?? Idk please help. Then close black out curtains and turn on sound machine (rain, babbling brooke, etc) like he always goes to sleep to, turn on video monitor and then say night night with a kiss like he always gets, turn off lights and sit with hand on him comforting with words also transitioning to just sitting in chair to doorway then just going out after kiss and key phrase. Does this sound like a good plan? How often and when do you go in to check on them? What if he refuses to go to sleep? Maybe at that point dad takes him in bed no snuggle just hand touching?

[MamaCooke]

Maybe also in dim lighting in living room before bed we don't allow crawling as to stimulate him but read a little to him.

[MamaCooke]

And with naps I won't have the dim lighting out in living room like in the evening how do I keep it consistent? Read to him too? The naps are what we are struggling with the most right now. Even though at night he doesn't self settle he at least goes to sleep fairly quick (5 min) after finishing breast or bottle where as nap time I was lying with him for half hour to hour after he BFed in big bed with me and that wasn't even putting him down lately (the last 2 weeks). Only stroller or car rides and he's out! Been waking lots to in middle of the night. He's a really really bad teether too. Worst one I know of.

[Emami]

I think your wind down routine sounds fine, I don't think you need to add anything else.  It doesn't need to be long and involved, just something consistent so he gets ready for sleep and knows what's expected.  So for bedtime - bath, feed, bed, blackouts, white noise, kiss, sleepy phrase and goodnight.  Personally I would lay him down when everything is ready, so curtains and white noise first, then lie him down so that you can just give him a kiss, say sleepy phrase and leave rather than still moving around in his room.  For naps same thing without the bath.  I don't think it will matter if you don't have dim lighting for naps as it is more the sequence of events and consistency that lets him know it's time for sleep.

How often and when do you go in to check on them? What if he refuses to go to sleep?

Don't think about it in terms of how often because if you're clock watching and timing you're basically doing controlled crying.  It's a case of listening to him and trying to hold back from intervening if he's mantra crying, but going in if he needs you. So you have to judge whether he's really upset or he's trying to settle himself.  Go in as much as he needs you, reassure, sleepy phrase, rinse and repeat.  For nights you keep going until he's asleep. For naps I think Tracy recommends 45mins and if he's still awake and protesting you take a break, have some low key A time and try again after half an hour or so.

Hugs for the NWs, I have a bad teether too and they have a lot to answer for!

[MamaCooke]

That really helps thanks!

[creations]

You might also want to look at his overall routine if it has been taking a long time for him to go to sleep. Sleep training is very hard if LO is not on a suitable A time or sleep routine for age.
I'll also add WRT wind down. mine actually liked his A time to go *right* up to nap so could not be having a long drawn out WD routine it drove him crazy.  I used to have the room prepared before we went in, so already curtains shut, lights off.  Do the length of WD you feel your LO is best on (which might take a bit of experimentation).

Do you want to post your EAS times so we can do a quick check before you go ahead? It's super hard to get a LO to sleep if they are UT for example.  You would begin with WU (wake up) and just note the times down like this:
WU 7.00
E 7.00
E 8.00 breakfast
A 3hr 45
S 10.45 - 11.30 (put down at 10 but didn't sleep until 10.45)
...and so on right through the day.  With a brief note of important info such as I have above.

[MamaCooke]

Success success success! So, Friday I was battling LO's nap again. My plan was just to nurse him to sleep in lap in bedroom then place him in crib just so he was at least safe and sleeping! But he wasn't falling asleep so I just tried laying him down in crib, using key words, and just sitting in dark room with him. He cried and fussed (nothing ear piercing of alarming sounding) but fell asleep after 5 mins!!!! Whaaaaa?!!!! Then later that night for dad he gave him bottle in living room, let him get sleepy looking for 15 mins then laid him in crib with a little more milk and he went straight to sleep no fuss! Then, Saturday he went down for nap after 10 seconds of crying. 10 seconds!!! Saturday night I was worried because we had a wedding to attend a bit of a drive away so we had to lay him down to sleep in car seat for drive home at his usual bedtime then transfer to crib once home. He woke up when we got home and fell asleep in crib after 5 mins of crying. Today for nap was a little harder took 15 mins but that's a cake walk compared to what I thought I was going to have to go through in the first place. Seems like the trick for him, for now, is for me to nurse him before he gets too tired, then sit with him with little touch or words. The only thing we have to work on next is the middle of the night wakes which is harder for me because I'm tired or scared if I try anything I'll wake myself up and have trouble going back to sleep (which has been the case before). I did try last night. He woke up at 130. I let him cry fuss for 10 minutes first before heading down (nothing crazy sounding). Then tried for an hour to put him back down in his crib after I nursed him. He was soooo wide awake though, which isn't his typical thing at that time. Crawling around in crib, talking to stuffed animals, fussing. I gave up. That was long enough for me. I'll give it another go tonight. Any helping advice for those times?

[Emami]

Great update! Glad naps are going so well 

For NWs, when you say an hour was long enough and you gave up, what do you mean?  What did you do then and how did he go back to sleep?  Tbh, if he's not crying I'd leave him to it.  You know he wasn't hungry, and if he wasn't upset then theres nothing to settle iykwim.  I know it's hard, I can't sleep when my baby is awake either, but the less you intervene the better in terms of him learning to out himself (back) to sleep.  Crawling, talking, fussing, and seeming wide awake sounds like UT.  Do you want to post your routine as creations suggested, maybe there's something that'll stand out?

[creations]

Great update!!
So, remember all this good stuff when you have a tricky day because this really does show that you can make great steps towards self settling. I truly believe it is a gift to give a child the ability to go to sleep independently, that they are so confident in themselves and in you that they are happy to drift off to dream land

[MamaCooke]

So here is an example of our EASY sched. It's not to a T because the time we wake up varies somewhere between 630-830 am. But the timing between naps always stays about the same ranging between 2-3 hours for about 45 mins-90 mins.

730 wake up, change diaper, nurse
8-1030 activity
1030-1130 change diaper, nurse and nap (naps vary 45-90 min)
1130-12 lunch, change diaper
12-330 activity
330-430 change diaper, nurse and nap
5-530 dinner
530-630 hangs out in high chair while we eat a little and activity
630 bath
7-730 change diaper, nurse and bedtime

What does NW, TBH and UT 😣 lol

So the first middle of the night attempt it was an hour long of me nursing first then laying him down in his crib first sitting there and out of room. He was wide awake and fussing and crying or playing that whole hour and then I gave up and co slept with him he went straight to sleep. Second middle of the night attempt he woke at 1230 so I didn't think he was hungry since he had just nursed at 730 so I tried letting him self settle without me going in the room at all. He fussed a little. Mostly babbling. After 45 mins then I tried talking to him through the baby monitor with key words for 15 mins. Again, an hour was long enough for me. Went in nursed him and co slept and he went straight to sleep. He nurses 1-2xs a night. Wakes at 1230 and 430 or just 430. Usually both xs as of late. What can I do?

[MamaCooke]

Also forgot to mention that now when I lay him down for naps or bed I don't have to sit with him in there anymore. Just kiss and "night night" and I'm out the door. He either cries for 5 mins or no crying at all! Even more progress!!!!

[creations]

But the timing between naps always stays about the same ranging between 2-3 hours for about 45 mins-90 mins.

AT 8 months the guidance time is 3-4 hrs so you're on the low end or possibly too low on the A times.  If you're getting 45 min naps this is also a sign of UT (under tired) which means LO is not tired enough to transition into the next sleep cycle.  Extending the A time can really help to extend the nap. During sleep training it is often useful to also go in to LO just before the transition time and help him through the transition using your soothing method (eg, firm hand or key phrase).
It's quite hard to tell from your EASY what your exact times are simply because the nap varies. So the first A time looks like 3hrs but the second looks like 4 hrs (4hrs is unlikely to be too short but could be for some).

He nurses 1-2xs a night. Wakes at 1230 and 430 or just 430. Usually both xs as of late. What can I do?

It's quite normal for a BF baby to feed twice in the night.  I would just go ahead and feed him then work on the gradual withdrawal and self settling directly after feeding.  Thing is if he is hungry he's not going to settle.  If he thinks you will eventually co-sleep he'll hold out for that.  If you are going to co-sleep you might as well go ahead and do that right away rather than an hour later when you're exhausted.  I would feed and then use your energy to encourage him to go back to sleep in his own bed without you in it (but with you helping him sleep if needed).
With night feeds check the time, if it's been a reasonable time between feeds (say 4-5hrs) then feed.  If he wakes before this time then re-settle without feeding.  12.30 and 4.30 look like reasonable times for a feed to me.

Just kiss and "night night" and I'm out the door. He either cries for 5 mins or no crying at all! Even more progress!!!!

Lovely   I'm assuming when you say crying for 5 mins you mean a mantra cry which he is using to self settle.

You've had so much progress! Great!!

[creations]

Sorry also meant to post this link for you
Site Acronyms/Abbreviations - What they are, and what they mean.
I know all the abbreviations can be annoying but it saves us so much time when responding to many threads, you'll get used to it very quickly I'm sure