Author Topic: Afternoon nap silliness (Read 3352 times)

lily_layne · « **on:** October 13, 2015, 02:49:00 am »

Over the last few weeks DS (10.5 months) has decided that his pm nap time is the perfect time to play. At first he would just stand up for a bit and then cry (little turkey can't get himself down) so I would settle him and PD and he'd be asleep in 15-20 minutes. Now it's turned into a 30-60 minute drawn out affair of me going in and laying him down repeatedly. He rarely cries - just chats and chews the crib rail. I am sure we've hit the early stages of the 2-1 and he's UT. His morning nap has been shortening a bit on it's own lately too.

This is what we were doing a few weeks ago:
WU: 645/7
S: 9:30-11
S: 1:30/1:45-3/3:15
BT: 7

Now it's more like:
WU: 645/7
S: 9:30-10:45 (goes down easily and some days is ready to sleep at 9:15)
S: 2/2:15-3:30-3:45 (in bed at 1:45)
BT: 7

I know the day is actually pretty good but I'm invested in his pm nap being around the same time as DD's (so 1/1:30) so that I get a break and we have time to get out in the afternoon. I'm sure capping the am nap is the way to go (correct me if I'm wrong) but I just need someone to hold me accountable for waking him as I'm rubbish at waking babies. How long should I let him nap in the morning and how much A time after?

Also, how can I teach him to get down on his own? He's tried a few times but ends up banging his chin or head on the rail on the way down.

lauradj · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2015, 04:07:32 am »

Honestly hon, I think he's just not tired for his second nap and that's why he's playing in his crib. He should be able to stay up a solid 3-4hrs at this age. I know it makes the afternoons messy, my kids naps currently overlap in the afternoon but it's temporary. I make it a point to get us out and about early in the morning or I have DS2 nap on the go in the morning so DS1 is tired for his nap mid-day. It all works out.

Kellyjs · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2015, 06:52:32 am »

I'd go straight in and cap that first nap to 45mins hun. So wake at 10.15 and he should be ready for a nap,at 1pm or even 1.15/30 hopefully (this will need playing around with I'm sure). Saying that my DD never did well with this way round as she could do a full A time on one sleep cycle, but we can always try and see? Here to hold your hand xx

Eta wrt helping him get down... We used to play ring a ring a roses during A time (without going round), just holding her hands and allowing her to bounce to the song. When it came to the bit where they all fall down, I just eased her down whilst holding her hands. Think she had it on her own after a week. It is a tough time when they're in bed, but hopefully with the new routine he'll be more tired and less likely to stand in the first place xx

lily_layne · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2015, 20:01:15 pm »

Quote from: Kellyjs on October 13, 2015, 06:52:32 am

I'd go straight in and cap that first nap to 45mins hun. So wake at 10.15 and he should be ready for a nap,at 1pm or even 1.15/30 hopefully

That sounds like a great plan. I will dive in and wake him tomorrow.

He woke at 5 this am and didn't settle until 6 so then he slept in a bit and ended up with only an hr am nap (although a bit later than usual). He did this once last week and then went right to sleep for his pm nap and I was hoping for the same today but it doesn't look like it's going to happen as I hear him chatting as I type.

Thanks for the tip on teaching sitting. That's a great idea. Certainly better than DD's way of "helping" him which is to just pull his hands off of the crib bars so he falls!

Kellyjs · « **Reply #4 on:** October 14, 2015, 06:16:48 am »

Ha ha well that might work?! At least he's helping

. Good luck hun, keep us posted xx

lily_layne · « **Reply #5 on:** October 15, 2015, 16:28:49 pm »

I went to wake him yesterday morning and lost my nerve and was about to close his door when DD barged in yelling and woke him - at least someone in this house has the guts to wake a baby! DS still monkeyed around for 45 minutes before he settled for the pm nap. I will keep at for a few more days to see if it improves and work on not getting frustrated when he plays around at nap time.

Kellyjs · « **Reply #6 on:** October 15, 2015, 17:33:27 pm »

Sorry that did make me laugh! Argh to the faffing around though. What time did you try for the nap hun? And how long was it in the end? As you said, I might try the same time for another day and see if he settles quicker xx

lily_layne · « **Reply #7 on:** October 16, 2015, 01:53:04 am »

Yesterday was:
WU: 645
S: 9:30-10:30 (I couldn't bring myself to wake him at 45 minutes)
S: 2-3:40 (PD at 115)
BT: 715 (PD at 650 and lots of crying and repeat visits to settle

)
STTN

WU and first nap were the same today and he took ages to settle for his pm nap despite showing major tired signs at 12:30 but there were workers pulling siding off of our house which was insanely loud so I think that was the problem more than anything. We had BT drama tonight too. I know that his will pass but I am feeling quite frustrated and low on patience with all of this playing and crying.

It does seem no matter when I PD and no matter the am nap, he doesn't settle until 2/2:15 so maybe this is just our new normal. I am hesitant to keep him awake until 2 in case he still takes ages to settle which would push the nap very late.

Kellyjs · « **Reply #8 on:** October 16, 2015, 06:23:59 am »

Hmmm, you have got room in the day to make it a bit longer if you wanted hun? If you did want to keep that first nap at an hour, then actually pd for nap at say 2pm. You could just try it the once and see? BT could be closer to 7.15pm then.

The other option is to cap the nap closer to 30mins and then I would expect he'd be ready for a nap around 1pm, but as I said before I found it much easier during the transition with a long first nap. And I know you don't like waking him, so could always try the first option first

I wouldn't expect he'd be ready for a nap after only 2hrs A after an hour nap at this age. Maybe with a 20 mins nap I would think so.

I wonder if he's just not ready for bed after 3hrs A before BT? Do you think he's HSN? Then again, my DD always liked a shorter A to BT but we were on 3hrs A after a short nap at 8mo, so it's hard to judge comparing yours to mine

xx

lily_layne · « **Reply #9 on:** October 17, 2015, 20:29:09 pm »

Yesterday was not what I expected at all:
WU: 6:10
S: 9:15-9:45 - up crying. I tried resettling but no go
PD: 1:00 - playing, chatting, etc (probably a bit later than it should have been)
S: 1:30-3:30 - cry out and self settle at 2
BT: 7:15
Unsettled sleep from 5-6:15 when he woke.

It's been ages since he's had a 30 minute wake up so I think he's getting OT. He also has 2 teeth about to cut so that doesn't help.

Quote from: Kellyjs on October 16, 2015, 06:23:59 am

Hmmm, you have got room in the day to make it a bit longer if you wanted hun? If you did want to keep that first nap at an hour, then actually pd for nap at say 2pm. You could just try it the once and see? BT could be closer to 7.15pm then.

After what happened yesterday I didn't have the guts to cap the am nap so this is what we're trying today. Usually the best bet with him is to just follow cues for a day or 2 so he can get caught up on sleep and then try the routine again. He resisted the am nap a bit but then slept from 9:45-11:15. I just nursed him and PD at 2:15. He was very drowsy on the breast and yawned when I PD but he just popped right up and was chatting - grrrrrrrrrrrr. I laid him down and gave him a stuffed animal to see if he'll stay laying and settle down with that. I also moved his crib away from the window as he was standing and playing with the curtains. It doesn't seem to have stopped the standing but it do feel it's safer as the curtains are quite long.

I don't know if he's HSN but he definitely sleeps more than DD did. He does best with 14.5 hours. Since we dropped the CN, he's done a long A to bed so it could be that he just needs more A time there. As much as I want to have him down earlier in the afternoon, I don't know if I can commit to capping. I did when we transitioned to set naps, but capping at 1.5 is different than 45 min, yk? What routine was your DD on at this age?

Could this also just be developmental silliness? It seems he plays no matter when I put him down, even when he's clearly tired.

lily_layne · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2015, 03:32:01 am »

Just since that last post wasn't long enough, here's an update

Complete pm nap refusal despite being obviously tired. I even tried to APOP a nap in the stroller which was a no go. Now I'm unsure what approach to take tomorrow.

Emami · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2015, 07:14:25 am »

I know you have a hard time waking him (trust me, I understand that one), but I think capping the am nap is the way to go. His messing around for the pm nap has been going on a while now, and I know he seems tired but he could just be showing those signs out of habit. Everything he's doing says UT to me. Also since he mrsses around for a while but then has been doing a decent nap once he falls asleep, I think he's trying to get that extra bit of A time to be tired enough.

As Kelly said, you've got a bit of wiggle room in the day to stretch him out, but you'll end up with a later BT and longer day. I would just bite the bullet and cut the morning nap to 30mins. The time he did that naturally he did 2hrs in the afternoon. If you feel he's getting OT you could try 45mins instead, but I've found with both my two that isn't capped enough and they could both manage a full A afterwards. I would push through and let him get used to it. If he does well with 14.5hrs sleep he would still be getting that with 2.5hrs in naps and a 12hr night (he was doing 12hrs right?)

I know Annabel isn't a shining example of how you want 11mo sleep to look, but this has been working for her for a while now and her days are pretty good. She doesn't sleep as much as Reid, so it's with a 30min, 1.5hr nap and 11hr night but she's pretty happy on it. I don't feel that her day routine has anything to do with her issues at night

lily_layne · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2015, 13:52:52 pm »

Thanks, Emma. My gut tells me you're right. Can you post the times of Annabel's naps?

Should I cap this morning or let him catch up? He did get 12 hrs last night so 13.5 overall which is decent. He looks tired this morning.

Looks like I should have followed your first advice, Kelly!

*Liz* · « **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2015, 14:09:37 pm »

Just cap it else you will start a UT/OT loop up again won't you?

Thomas doesn't have such a fixed routine (because of my 2 kids being big and out a lot), but I have managed to keep his am nap relatively stuck at 9am. It can be as short as 30 mins now, and then I do the pm nap 3hrs later and get a decent one. He often falls asleep on the school run, which is what it is so early, but that sets his body clock and means I can still get the early nap at home as well.

My boy is prone to long NWings if UT rather than nap refusal. He'd sleep all day if I let him

.

lily_layne · « **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2015, 15:31:34 pm »

Quote from: *Liz* on October 18, 2015, 14:09:37 pm

Just cap it else you will start a UT/OT loop up again won't you?

I need to print this out and keep rereading it. When I'm tired and anxious I let the fear of OT rule the day and you are right, that will cause problems. DH is home today so I will put him in charge of waking Reidy.

Thanks for sharing your routine. It helps to see what other LOs are doing. Do you wake him in the am if he's taking a longer nap?
Nap refusal is new here. He was more like T with long NWs from UT and then great naps.

*Liz* · « **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2015, 19:06:47 pm »

I don't wake him often TBH - but because we live in chaos he usually does self regulate really. I wake him if it looks like I will end up struggling to get a pm nap in, and I sometimes wake him in the pm to preserve bedtime.

He's dead easy to wake though. Turn off the white noise and he just sits up chatting

.

Emami · « **Reply #16 on:** October 18, 2015, 19:50:20 pm »

Annabel's days are pretty much like this:
WU 5:30/6
Nap 9-9:30
Nap 12:30-2
BT 6:30
I would prefer the whole thing shifted about an hour later, but we've fallen into this pattern as it fits in with school runs. The first nap is in the car on the way home, and I like it as she only ever does half an hour in the car so I don't actually have to wake her. Then I have to leave at 3 for pick up, so the pm nap has to be early enough in the day. So same as Liz really

lily_layne · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2015, 22:53:28 pm »

Thanks, Emma. I would love it if I could get a CN in while we are out and about in the stroller but it's been ages since he's taking a stroller nap so I don't even know if he would anymore. I am just going to keep rereading these posts so I don't chicken out on waking him.

Today was much better. I woke him at 40m and then he fell asleep nursing 3 hrs later and slept 2h45. An OT crash I'm sure, but I'm glad he caught up on some missed sleep.

lily_layne · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2015, 19:33:51 pm »

So I've got some good news and some bad news. Good news: capping the nap is working wonderfully and he's back to self-settling for naps (he was falling asleep nursing for a bit there). Bad news: long NWs.

This is how the last 3 days have gone:
Sun:
WU: 630 or 7 (I can't remember)
S: 9:15-10:05
S: 1-3:45
BT: 7
NW: 10:30-12:30 - woke up crying and then played for ages

Mon:
WU: 6:10
S: 910-1015
S: 140-330
BT: 7
STTN

Tues:
WU: 6:10
S: 9:15-10:05
S: 1:20-3:40
BT: 7 (very tired at BT)
NW: 10:30-12:30 - up crying and then played for a long time

Anything stand out as the cause of the NWs? Is it accumulated OT or UT from the long pm naps? He does have 2 front teeth close to coming through and I gave him advil right when he woke but then he just played for ages after.

lily_layne · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2015, 01:40:21 am »

Ugh. Another long NW (although shorter than the others at least) and he fought the nap for 2 hrs this afternoon

I am one tired (and crabby) mama. Any insight on the NWs?

lily_layne · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2015, 20:15:10 pm »

Sorry to keep posting. I am just at a bit of a loss and I think so much about it that I can't see the forest for the trees.

After fighting the nap for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaages, last night was better but he fought his pm nap again today (but I was able to settle him in a reasonable amount of time). He does seem OT (he certainly has puffy circles under his eyes) but I'm not sure what to do. Today was:
WU: 610
S: 910-1005 (I woke)
PD at 1 (he just started to yawn and was clearly tired) but didn't get him to sleep until 1:45

Is it possible that fighting that nap is habit? I think he went to sleep so easily for a few days because he was so tired he just crashed (was pretty much asleep or fully asleep during WD). If he's not nearly asleep when I PD, he just grabs the bars and pops up like a jack-in-the-box and then plays for quite a while. He eventually cries when he wants to get down because he still can't get himself down. I go in when he's no longer just frustrated and if I lay him down he goes berserk so I usually pick him up and nurse him (the screaming really gets to me otherwise) and then he dozes on the breast and goes back to sleep. Does it sound like this is the time for PU/PD (or just PD I guess given his age)? He does self-settle for the am nap and BT (and used to for the pm nap also).

*Liz* · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2015, 20:23:53 pm »

Its partly just transition silliness I think. I do think that he doesn't need 2 long naps anymore, and I also think its perfectly possible that the nap ending as late as 4pm might still be an issue as well.

Funnily enough we have started with a string of long NWings this week as well

. Thomas seems to like his sleep

, and has been having 2 x 1.5hr naps a day for a long time, but this week we have had more NWings than usual and some of them have been really long

. We went out for the day yesterday so he had short naps only, and then slept from 7-4, then 4.45-7, which was a ton better. The EW may have been OT or genuine hunger as he hadn't eaten well (out and about, and OT, with a dairy allergy, is pretty hard going

).

I think you need to cut that am nap to 30 min and try and get that pm nap earlier. Still needs capping at 2ish hrs until 1 nap really

.

lily_layne · « **Reply #22 on:** October 24, 2015, 02:17:32 am »

Quote from: *Liz* on October 23, 2015, 20:23:53 pm

Its partly just transition silliness I think.

You're probably right. He just looks so tired and I do tend to let the fear OT rule and that can really get in the way at transition times.

I wonder if the long NWings are just developmental then? I am hoping they go away soon although last night and the night before were better.

*Liz* · « **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2015, 21:32:43 pm »

After last night I am wondering the same

. Thomas was awake from 12 until about 1.30am, not doing much, just awake and not settling

. Every 10 mins he would cry and I would give him a cuddle and pop him back. Eventually he went back off.

Its the flipping' clock change here tonight as well

.

lily_layne · « **Reply #24 on:** October 25, 2015, 01:26:43 am »

That sounds exactly like Reidy's NWs earlier this week. I have a close friend with a DS who is only one day younger than DD. It is amazing how often their sleep troubles happened at the same time - goes to show how much of it is really developmental, I think.

Our province doesn't change clocks. I do wish we did except when I think about my LOs sleep - then I'm happy to leave them the same year round. I hope your LOs adjust easily.

I think I need to face the fact that some sleep training may be necessary here. I know a big part of this is 2-1 silliness which makes it tough to get timings right but it seems that if he's the least bit UT, he can't settle. (Maybe my expectations are off since, at this age, I could put DD down a bit UT and she would just roll and play for a while and then sleep.) The other piece is that he still can't get himself down when he stands - I do practice with him but he is terrified when we try. Most pm naps (and BT tonight) he stands as soon as I put him in the crib. He chews the rail (I'm sure it feels good on his sore gums) and chats for about 20 minutes and then cries. I leave him when he's just doing some frustrated fussing but he then gets beside himself and I go in (and letting my anxiety about OT get the better of me) and nurse him again and he usually falls asleep on me. I am sure that if he could get himself down he would self-settle but that may be a while yet. Also, I do need to drop the day feeds soon before I go back to work (he feeds right before he naps) so should I just drop them now if I'm going to do a bit of sleep training? How would you go about this?

*Liz* · « **Reply #25 on:** October 26, 2015, 22:11:58 pm »

I agree the getting down again thing will likely pass in a few days/ weeks. He will work it out soon

.

What is your plan re feeds? Are you replacing with a snack or cup of milk? My DD used to feed before she slept, and I found that by dropping naps I could then get rid of the feeds easily enough. I did have to switch to bottles at 8 months though. DO you feel you have a prop element?

lily_layne · « **Reply #26 on:** October 27, 2015, 02:00:07 am »

I've been procrastinating on making a plan on what to replace the feeds with. Thanks for sharing what you did with DD. I will likely replace it with a snack and a cup of milk, I just need to wrap my head around a WD w/o nursing.

I was feeling it was a prop but I've changed my mind again. Before every sleep time he nurses, yawns, rests his head on me a bit and then in bed. If it's morning or BT, he sleeps. There's only silliness in the afternoon so I think it is transition. I capped the nap even further and he's still playing up (today for 1h+ despite being tired). Today I tried settling without nursing when cried (calmed hjm then laid him down) but he just kept playing after, I think the needing to nurse after he plays is the only way to get him to settle for a pm nap so I may just roll with it a bit (I think it's like needing to apop the cn before they drop it???)

When I cut the am nap to 30, I didn't move the pm nap much earlier figuring he maybe wasn't tired enough after 3h A from a 45 min nap so in need of more A time. Is it worth bringing it earlier?
The past few days were:
WU: 615/630
S: 930-10
PD 1/115 S 130/145 (today 230)
BT 7

*Liz* · « **Reply #27 on:** October 27, 2015, 06:25:15 am »

You could always try. I prob would keep the feed before the pm nap since you need him to not wake early with hunger. Megan had a bottle before her lunchtime nap until she was about 2 years old.

How many days with a 30 min nap? I'd be tempted to just wait and see if it settles I think.

lily_layne · « **Reply #28 on:** October 27, 2015, 23:20:06 pm »

Reidy was spoiling me for my birthday today! He did a 12h night and then settled easily (and on his own) for the pm nap.

He yawned during lunch at just over 2h A time so we finished up and I had him in bed at 2.5h and he drifted right off for 2.5 hrs. I didn't wake him as he's got a tooth cutting today and seemed to need it so we'll see what tonight brings.

Thanks for the reminder to wait and see. Sometimes I expect change too soon.

*Liz* · « **Reply #29 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:09:23 am »

I think when they have a strong body clock they can really mislead you - and thats why you need a week or so before deciding.

Has be kept behaving

?

lily_layne · « **Reply #30 on:** October 30, 2015, 01:05:58 am »

He has. He finally figured out how to get down from standing and now no longer stands and plays when I put him down.

Good point about the body clock. He is a clock-oriented boy.

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Author Topic: Afternoon nap silliness (Read 3352 times)