Author Topic: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap  (Read 2002 times)

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Offline drakosha12

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5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« on: October 13, 2015, 19:06:16 pm »
Hello!
I'm a first time mom to 5 and half old baby girl. She's a text book a little active baby, I'm a "by the book" parent, so she's on 4 hours EASY schedule (from 07:00 to 19:00).
She's been doing great for last two weeks, early awakening fixed, sleep training finished-I just put her to bed after a short lullaby, white noise, calm words and some shooshing and she would fall asleep.
Overall 10 min tops.
Last couple of days, she has a hard time to calm down: as soon as she hears the lullaby she starts burying head in my shoulder, pushes me with her knees: usual signs to "let me fall asleep on my own". When I put her down, she becomes very active: waving her arms, raising legs, making sounds, starts playing with her pacifier and refuses to lay on her side: her usual sleep position. At the same time, she's desperate to fall asleep: pulling her ears, rubbing her eyes but simply can't calm down.  Picking her up never really worked: she starts fighting me as soon as she's in  my arms. She's doesn't like to cuddle, can't stay still when held in my arms and I really don't want to start rocking her. Tried to calm her down half an hour before nap, calm music, dark room, soft talk, stroking head, caressing her skin. She doesn't cry a lot or gets hysterical, it's just the putting down for a nap that takes 40-60 min that bothers me.
Any suggestions on how to calm my baby down will be much appreciated!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 19:31:24 pm by drakosha12 »

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2015, 09:37:58 am »
Hi and welcome  :)

Could you post a typical day for me in easy format so I can see what's happening?

So wu time
E
A
S and for how long

It does sound like she's a little UT for the nap, A times increase pretty rapidly from 4mo until they're ready to go to one nap at around 10-12-18mo. This is a good link to keep handy in the meantime, but look forward to hearing from you x

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!



Offline drakosha12

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2015, 10:41:16 am »
Hello Kelly!
Thank you so much for your reply!
The schedule is the one from the book:
E:07:00
A: 07:30-08:45
S: (starting to prepare at 08:45) 09:00-11:00
E:11:00
A:11:30-12:45
S:13:00-15:00
E:15:00
A:15:30-16:45
S:17:00-17:30
A:17:30 Bath:18:10
E:18:30
S:19:00
E:  dream-feed 23:00
Sorry for the military time, I'm not from the states, so the PM/AM really confuses me. :)

In terms of wu, do you mean walk out time, right?
In the beginning of the sleep training (more than a month ago), I would stay holding my hand on LO for 20 min, until she's in deep sleep. Now, I can leave even if her eyes are still open (almost right after putting her down) and she falls asleep (usually). Even if she wakes up, I just come in, put her on her side, place back the pacifier and walk out. It feels like if she knows that I'm there and she'd like to engage and talk to me. For last couple of days, I do stay longer with my hand on her (patting  on her back seems to wake her up), I wait about 7-10 min, until she's calm and asleep and then leave the room. After that, she wakes up after 10-15 min. Yesterday I started calming her down at 16:30, hoping that by 17:00 she'll fall asleep. I gave up at 17:20, she slept maybe for 10 min all together between PU/PD's.
I know that it  seems like I have a prefect child, but that's only because we both (me and LO) worked so hard on it, that's why I freak out if it doesn't work as well any more.
My concern right now is the cat nap at 17:00 that I can't manage to calm her down for, on other naps she's falling asleep much faster. I can't say that she doesn't need the nap, because she shows all the sleepy cues and if she doesn't take that nap, she's very cranky afterwards and I have to put her to bed earlier.
What I was hoping for is some winning down technique that will fit the BW method as appose to what I found online: like feed before nap or rock the baby to sleep. 
I'm also worried that the "can't calm down to sleep" habit will catch on to the other naps.

Thank you so much in advance, even knowing that that I can share this with someone really helps.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2015, 16:47:52 pm »
Military time works just fine for me hun!

Ok, your by the book routine is actually suitable for around a 4mo hun. That's perfect for that age but then we need to start increasing the A times slowly in line with their age and what our LO's tell us in terms of their temperament. For yours, the fact she's waking after 10-15mins for me, says she's just not ready to go down just yet. We do need to watch for their cues, but also have one eye on the clock too at this age as sleepy cues can happen for a variety of reasons including if they're hungry or bored.

You really do have an angel baby there it seems, I wish I had that routine even at 4mo! At 5.5mo mine would be early waking in the morning with that short of an A time. You've done so well, believe me  :)

Ok, did you see the link I posted earlier? At 5.5mo we really need to be heading towards around 2.5hrs A time. Also around this time is when they start looking to drop the cat nap. As you mentioned, it gets more difficult to put them down for it and they resist it, so we need to make the other. A times longer to compensate. I'll post a link at the end again for you to have a read through as it really does explain it better than I can.

Ok, so a plan. How about we look at extending both those first two A times by 15mins? It may be tricky as she might show you sleepy cues at her usual time, but please just try and do something low-key (I see you already have a wind-down, that should be perfect). We will then need to shave off some of the CN time. As you've effectively added 30mins to your day in total, we need to take that off somewhere else to keep your day to the same length. I would cap that CN at 15mins for now and that would mean she'll need slightly less A time before BT as they can't handle as long on a short nap.

I really think extending the A time will help you hun. It may be that we need to extend again, but creating props like feeding to sleep and rocking will probably only cause you issues and back track the hard work you've done so far. Just frankly, she's growing up and needs the extra time awake rather than being forced to sleep.

You've done so well, please don't beat yourself up about her not calming down. This is just her way of telling you she needs more A time ok? I'm here too to hold your hand xx

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months



Offline drakosha12

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2015, 05:35:05 am »
Hello Kelly,
I hope it's ok that I call you Kelly.
Thank you so much for your help, I didn't pay attention to your suggestion to change the schedule at first,  since I got my LO on 4 hours routine for 4 month baby just 2 weeks ago! Couple of days later I was so sorry that I didn't follow your advice, putting the LO to sleep for 40 min so she'll have cat nap for 30 min was fun! :'(
The good thing about my delay in reading about the transition that I got see all of the signs and to be sure that's now it's time.
Still struggling with short naps early waking, trying to prolong A times, still no definite routine: it goes back and forth 15 min. But it's ok, I'm sure will get there.
The PU/PD has got "broken" this morning.It seems that LO desperately wanted to be picked up at 6 AM, otherwise she started  crying. Usually I  had success with calming her down using just my voice (feeling like an hypnosis and takes 30 min at times), but not today. When I picked her up, she was fighting me and crying if put down. (Sweep memories of early days of sleep training). Eventually she fell asleep on my shoulder and only while being asleep  "agreed" to be laid in bed. For whole 8 min to sleep. ;D
I read the "How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)" topic, but can't really figure out how to pick up or put down in  a cradle position. Any suggestions?
Thank you again,
Have a nice day.

 

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2015, 07:59:30 am »
Of course that's ok, that's my name  :)

Don't worry sweetie, I've doubted suggestions on here before. We can only advise, you're the one there with her.

It's hard when they're EW, but a nice gradual approach in extending the A time does work. I've been there. Do check for teething too as this is a prime age for it.

I'm here to hold your hand through it, it does help that someone is removed from the situation and can spot the patterns of EW and short naps. Just keep a log for me ok? We will make it better. Fwiw by DD was on 3x 45mins naps at this age. It was only through help on here I got her napping longer. I went by the book, and it turned out she was capable of longer A times than the average. I forgot to listen to her and the signs she was showing me (Tracy's main ethos) and thought I was doing the right thing xx



Offline drakosha12

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2015, 18:37:07 pm »
Hello Kelly!
Sorry for taking my time with an update, it's just so much was changing every day, that I didn't know what to report: every day was different.
So, I noticed that my DD can't stay awake longer than 2.5 hours during A time, and I had 3 wonderful days when she took two 2 hours long naps without waking up. To compensate and to keep it interesting, she continued waking up for an hour each night, but at different times: at 02:00/03:00/04:00 and so on. I'm not worried about the NW because I trust that she has a reason: her bowel movements are not set yet. She's still getting used to the formula+ just started solids. I do believe that she's trying to help me and does it once a day now rather than 5 times a day like before. I think she'll move that activity to mornings soon.
In the meanwhile, she drooped dream feed all by herself, out of the blue. Caught me by surprise until I realized that the formula intake during the day has increased and overall the amount of food stayed the same.
For last two days, the naps became worse: divided in 2 parts ~45 min+~45 min with 15-20 min to calm down in between. Seems that I need to prolong the A time again, maybe that'll help, although she goes to sleep crying a bit because she's soooo tired  ;).
Thank you so much for your support, wishing you happy Halloween,
Daria.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2015, 19:42:06 pm »
Hi daria,

Lovely to hear from you again! It is crazy how much changes around now isn't it? Sounds like you're doing great though, well done!

Yes, A time can increase pretty rapidly around now. If you wanted to post what the last two days looked like I can mull them over with you? Including the NW's. Has that last CN completely gone now?

Wrt solids, when are you feeding them to her hun? It is recommended you start off slowly so the milk intake doesn't reduce. Milk remains their primary source of nutrition until they're one. I would also not feed solids at dinner time either as that can really mess which their bowel movements at night. Many prefer to start with breakfast or a little but of lunch? I don't think I introduced dinner to DD until she was 7mo I think? Xx



Offline drakosha12

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2015, 20:17:29 pm »
Hello Kelly,
Thank you for your fast reply, I'm flattered by your care and interest.
The "solids" are just apples pure, started a week ago. At second E, just before the formula, LO started with eating 2 tea spoons. It goes very well, today I tested her limit: she ate 12 ts and than drank much less than usual formula at that feed. Next feed at 16:00, she compensated for that: so all in total intake of formula for the day was only 15 ml less than usual. Tomorrow I'm planning to introduce another fruit pure at 11:00 and move apple to 16:00.
Last two days:
Wake up/E: 06:45-07:03
A: 07:30
S:9:40-11:34 (yesterday) 9:41-10:23+ 10:42-11.26 (today)
E: 11:30
A:12:00
S:14:08-14:48 + 15:02-15:50 (yes.) 13:47-14:16, and then it was a struggle, she would go back to sleep only for 10/5/7 min each time. I cave in at 15:30.
E: 16:00
A: 16:30
E: 18:30 (yes.) 18:05 today.
S: yesterday: 19:25-00:02+02:15-07:03. Today: still asleep from 18:49 (it's 22:00 for us now).
Any advice or suggestion will be great, but I think she's preparing to grow out of NW soon: although it takes her an 1-1:30 to go back to sleep, in between that time, she falls asleep with Pu/Pd and stays asleep for 10-20 min. If she's not asleep, she's quite, plays with her feet or pacifier. I'll take it, as long as there no crying! :-)
Thank you for your support and interest,
Daria

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2015, 07:37:45 am »
What we suggest here is to offer milk first then have solids around an hour later. This allows for them to take the full amount of milk and just have tastes of the solids. Milk is much more calorie and nutrition dense and will sustain them longer than solids can whatever it may be.

I know it's fun, seeing them enjoy their food. But I've seen it many times in that, solids tend to take over a bit, milk has reduced and hey presto they start waking at night again for a feed. Doing the way round I suggested limits that. Could you try that for me please? Maybe bottle at 11.30 as usual then solids at 12.30?

She'll be coming up to 6mo around now shouldn't she? I think that last A is too long tbh hun. Maybe we can compensate by shifting the second A a little so it reduces the third. Wdyt?so keep the first A as is for now, or just add on 5mins so you get to 3hrs A, then add on 15mins to the second A so that is also 3hrs A. I can see that one is a bit shorter usually and perhaps why you got an UT nap. Then that should take us 3hrs to BT (asleep by). That will be a constant 3hrs A across all the Aa's however it is around now they starts showing a preference for different A times throughout the day so we may need to tweak a little more soon, but I think if we hold this for a few days we can see if things settle down xx
 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 07:39:41 am by Kellyjs »



Offline drakosha12

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2015, 08:32:15 am »
Hello Kelly,
Thank you for your reply and advice!
DD is  6 month old exactly today. :-)
I just put her down for the first nap, after she was awake for 3 hours. She was cranky since 9:30 and fell asleep right after landing in bed.
About the pure, that's exactly what I intended to do, but I figured since it's just tasting of 2-3 ts, I can give her formula right after. Yesterday I just tried it once, to see how much she'll eat of the pure, if I won't limit her. Today I want to give her 2 ts of a new pear pure and then the formula at 11:30, or should I separate even this small tasting? Later on, I can't decide when to give her a bigger portion of apple pure, that was tested for the last week. Should I give the Apple pure at 12:30 or an hour later after the next feed at 17:00? If so, wouldn't it ruin her appetite before the last feed (at 18:30)?
In turms of the last A time before NT, that's a great suggestion! She's always been cranky from 17:00-30 and I really needed to keep her distracted for a whole hour. Question: is there a certain hour that I'm not supposed to let DD sleep after at noon? I remember reading that if a baby sleeps pass 16:30-17:00, he dosen't sleep well at night.
Thank you so much for the great advice,
Daria.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2015, 12:41:27 pm »
I would always do the milk first hun, just because we want her to be full up on milk rather than solids for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I would also keep it to one meal a day to start with. Either breakfast or lunch. Problem is with dinner time we want to make sure she has her BT milk to keep her full up for longer as you said, and if she does feel uncomfortable after having solids we don't want that to happen at BT either. I don't think I introduced solids at dinner time for this very reason until around 7mo. I wanted her to take her BT milk and not be windy or anything going down for the night.

No,there's not a certain hour they can sleep in the afternoon at all. Some run an 8-8 routine and that usually means cap finish around 5pm and that's fine for them. There's some silly theories out there to make LO's stay up stupidly long before BT to make them tired and this is just crazy and will definitely result in OT NW's xx



Offline drakosha12

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Re: 6 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2015, 09:00:52 am »
Hello Kelly!
How are you?
I've been meaning to report to you about how we're doing, but again, no day was the same as the previous one, so I couldn't find a pattern!  Finally, yesterday and the day before that were almost the same and I was hoping to get your advice.

I'll start with the good news: Baby girl sleeps through the night well, about 11-12 hours, although most nights she still wakes up once, each time in a different hour. She doesn't stay awake long, one pu\pd usually does the trick, there's no crying and even if she stays awake for 20-30 min, she falls asleep quietly on her own. I'm so proud of her!
She's eating well, loves her spoon and purees, has 3 puree meals a day, about 2.7-4 oz per a meal.
She dropped df, has formula 4 times a day, about 24-30 oz a day.

What I'm not happy about is her naps, she keeps waking up after random duration of the nap, but all together she manages to sleep about 3 hours a day.
Here's how the last two days went:
Wake up: 06:40/07:10
E (Formula) 07:00
A 07:30
E (Puree) 08:30
S 09:49-10:49/10:20-11:30
E (F) 11:30
A 12:00
E (P) 14:00
S 14:17-14:50+15:09-16:46/14:38-15:09+15:15-16:54
E (F) 16:45
A 17:15
E (P) 18:25
E (F) 20:00
S 20:20

I tried all variations of prolonging the A times from 3 to 3.5 hours, nothing seemed to help my baby to go on and sleep for 1.5 hour without waking up after 20-30-40 min (each time was different!). Finally, she's holding on for about 3 hours and 20 min of A time during a day, last A time lasts 2:45 or 3 hours. First nap she sleeps only for an hour. Second nap, she sleeps for 30 min, then wakes up for a little bit and then sleeps for 1:45 min.
In terms of the food, she eats formula every 4.5 hours and purees 1.5 hours after formula (I didn't write the exact E times above).

I'm sure that there are schedule changes that need to be done, but I can't figure out exactly which ones.
Also, after the second nap, it seems that I keep feeding the baby 3 times in a matter of 2.5-3 hours, is it too much? She does eat less on those feeds but still good amounts.
And of course, I don't really enjoy prolonging my "shift" with her for 13 hours, from 07:00 to 20:00, rather than 12 hour shifts that I used to have.
I'll be grateful for any  advice,

Thank you in advance,
Daria.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 5 and 1/2 month old can't calm down for a nap
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2015, 20:23:20 pm »
Hi daria, lovely to hear from you. Great news about the nights, well done you!

The feeds look good to me. We have to be a bit creative with the E times so 4.5hrs here, then 3.5hrs there won't matter too much and as you said she's taking a good amount. Glad to see you and her are enjoying the weaning process too.

Remind me how old she is now hun? They are some pretty epic A times. Much better than where we started eh? I can see how this is a lot different for you than a apple of months ago. Your 'on duty' time must feel so much longer now.

That last A to BT looks so much better now, well done you for spacing the day better. Honestly, amazing work. Now, last time she had those broken naps, we increased the. A time yet again and it helped for a little while didn't it? I'm really trying to test my mummy brain here so correct me if I'm wrong  ::) :P

We've extended so much, but she was under where she needed to be when we started and they do like to continually extend their. A time for these few months.

I wonder if just adding on an extra 10mins on before nap 1 might help? I'm still thinking a tad UT for the first nap. And that second one could well be slightly OT but resettling well to continue her nap.

Wrt the length of the day. I'm afraid 13hrs is around average hun. 12hrs ONS might happen for some, especially during times of transitions, but they tend to revert back to 13hr days and 11hrs nights again soon after. I have a feeling yours is like mine in that she can cope with high A times to get a decent nap in, but will max out at 11hrs ONS with a v rare occasion doing 11.5.

If it helps, the next transition is the 2-1 that can start as early as 8mo, but for many deal with it around 11-13mo, then the day might get shorter again. I have a feeling you'll go through it on the earlier side.l perhaps in a few months though.

Another option is to cap the naps in the hope it'll lengthen the night if you want to try that way? It can be really tricky to get it right and some bubbas just can't manage 12hrs ONS consistently, but it's up to you hun xx



Offline drakosha12

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Re: 7 month 10 days old wakes up often during naps
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2015, 13:00:49 pm »
Hello Kelly!
How are you?
I'm desperate for advice! It's been 2 month, since I had a dissent day nap :'(
DD is 7 month and 10 days old now.
The morning awake time is different every day: 06:30/06:50/07:00/7:15/07:30
For last two month I was following our great advice and increased A time. Around 6 month when we lost the cat nap and increased the A times to 3 hours, I had a perfect week with 2 naps, 1.5 hours each.
Then it all got broken again. I tried to increase A times some more, reached a point of A time of 3:40, but that didn't help. I figured that's too long of an A time anyway, so I went backwards, to try to find the right A time.
Now I'm at 2:40 A time in the morning (before first nap) and 2:10/2:20 before second nap, depends how long DD sleeps on her first nap.
I had a miracle day 3 days ago when those A times worked, but not before and not since.
What happens is that DD falls asleep pretty easy (of course no cues in advance, that I can see) and then sleeps for 20-30-40 minutes. Wakes up, sometimes doesn't want to go back to sleep and I quit after 40 min. Lately, it takes about 10-15 min for her to go back to sleep. She sleeps for 20-30-40 min yet again. Sometimes it's 2-3-4 sets like that before the end of the nap time.
I know from other posts that a 30 min nap is OT and 45 min nap is UT but in my case, it seems that same A times cause different awake time on different days, without me making a significant changes in the activity itself- no new experiences were  introduced.
At night DD sleeps relatively well, at times she wakes up crying 2-3 times between 20:00-23:00, gets pacifier and immediately falls asleep. My guess is that it happens only on especially horrible naps days. Also she wakes up for 30-45 min sometimes during the night, bur after a few PU\PD falls back to sleep. That happens on random times, so I'm not worried about that.
In terms of the routine,  I stopped following exact times, it all depends on awaking in the morning, so this is the log: first A time 2:40, second A time 2:10/2:20, third A time 2:30 (depends on DD's mood) and sometimes, if she's awake long enough before BT (18:30-19:30, again depends on awakening in the morning), I put her down for cat nap that lasts no longer than 35 min.
For last week I stopped playing with A times, in hope that she'll get used to them but I don't think I'm very successful.
Regarding the food, DD has formula every 4.5-4 hours followed by purred foods, an hour/1.5 hours after the formula. She eats well, so at least I'm not concerned about that.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated,
Thank you in advance,
Daria.