Appropriate method for a Spirited 10 month old?

[Jmpratt]

I have been trying to use pu/pd method since my DS was 7 months with much success sttn but little success with going to sleep on her own. 

I'm concerned it's not the right method after reading some other posts about spirited or touchy babies as well as older babies. 

Thanks! 

Julie

[becj86]

IME, no, PUPD is not a good method for a spirited LO.

Often spirited LOs have very narrow sleep windows and routine is really important to get right. What's your routine at the moment and how are her naps?

Also, spirited LOs do better with gradual withdrawal - hand on LO's back/chest while you sing/say your sleepy phrase then gradually remove yourself from the falling asleep process over time.

[Jmpratt]

Wow thank you so much for responding so quickly and clearly.

My LO definitely has a narrow sleep window!  The times that pu/pd has worked, it's most likely been bc it was the right time.

I have a 3 year old and do routine on my own 4 nights a week so things are not as consistent as they could be.  I've also been trying to go from 3-2 naps this week so things are kind of in flux.  In addition to that, I work outside of the home so I bedtime is rushed when I get home with the girls, 3 nights a week.

Bedtime routine or daily routine? I'm assuming bedtime but if you want our easy let me know.

BT
6pm  nurse, but trying to give solids and wait to nurse before bedtime bc LO starts falling asleep
Dim lights, music in family room, read with toddler, walk around with  LO
615-630 bath
630-645 nurse, trying to move this up bc she fell asleep 2 nights in a row bc she was so tired and I didn't wake her bc she would have been very angry/spirited.
7-715 to sleep

Naps most days are 1030-1145 and 230-330.  Today's: 1030-1210 and 340-410
I did pu/pu tonight and LO took very long to settle after giving up after 20 min and rocking for almost 40 min.   

I really appreciate your help, I don't want to put my LO through more than she needs to. 

BT is so hard bc I am still figuring out her last A time.

Thanks!

[Jmpratt]

One more thing, I have considered the gradual withdrawal method but have no idea how to start if bc I think LO would have just as hard time withy that since she's used to rocking and or nursing on these rare occasions.

Any other posts you can refer me to for this method?  Thanks

[becj86]

No wonder you're having trouble getting her to go to sleep! She's on a great routine for a 6 month old. Can you write out your whole EASY and tell me what things you have to work around - dropoff, pickup, work, etc. and we'll see if we can't come up with a routine in which she may be more inclined to sleep.

I don't think you necessarily have a sleep training issue - has she ever gone to sleep independently? I'd say with this routine it'd be a small miracle so if she has in the last few months, she's got the skill, just not tired enough to use it, perhaps. Either way, it will definitely be an easier job when you've an age-appropriate routine.

[Jmpratt]

Wow!  Too much sleep?  I'm so appreciative of your help!  Yes LO has put herself to sleep over past 3 months but the sickness and teething and evidently developmental changes and it's been about a month,  but yes she can.

Daycare easy
E 7 ish WU and nurse
A drop off at 830
E 930 solids
S 1030-1130 (nap between 45-70 min)
E 1140 solids
A play
E 2 bottle
S 230-315
A play
E 4 bottle
530 pick up
6 get home
615 used to nurse , now trying a fee bites of solids
Wind down
630 bath
645 nurse
7 bed

At home
E 7 WU and nurse
E 8 solids
A play
E 945 nurse top off, just started doing this to help nap longer?
S 1030-12
E 12 nurse
E 1 solids
A play
S 230-315
E 320 nurse
A play
E 5 nurse
E 530 solids
S 6 start winding down
Same BT routine as above

Please tell me what parts are not age appropriate!  Some days she takes 2 45 min naps.  Most days, 1 70 min nap and 1 40 min.

Thank youuuuuu

[becj86]

Some days she takes 2 45 min naps.  Most days, 1 70 min nap and 1 40 min

^ These nap lengths are the main clue - with a sleep cycle of ~40-45min which is typical and clearly what you have here, she's undertired when she's going for her nap. Given how she's going with two shorter naps, she'll probably only take one long nap and a catnap to get her through to bedtime. Feeding her will not make her sleep longer if she's not tired, though I can see that she's going a long time without eating, so it might be worth shifting solids a bit later or adding a quick nurse.

Since A times vary a lot at this age, its probably best to increase little by little if day-care will work with you. I'd try that first nap at 10:45 for a week, then 11 for a week if her naps haven't extended. 4hr should be reasonable at this age. You're looking really for a nap length approaching 1.5hr if not a little more than that. She'll move to one nap eventually and you don't want to be teaching a toddler how to take a long nap again (trust me, BTDT), so its important to keep her body in the habit of taking a long nap so she's not going to get as overtired when she goes to one nap.

Your routine may look more like this:
7 - WU, milk
9:30 - snack
11 - nap
12:30 - wake, milk
2:30 - snack
3:45 nap (aiming for an UT nap so she's easier to wake but may have to move later if she starts to refuse the nap)
4:30 - wake (easiest to just go in at 40min and wake her as she stirs - less crying for you as its less horrible to be worked in light sleep than in the middle of a sleep cycle)
BT - still asleep by 7-7:30
Once she's getting a restorative nap in the day somewhere, she should be able to stay up that bit later and not fall asleep nursing at 6:30.

[Jmpratt]

Ok so here's today's easy and then how BT went.

7 WU milk
10 food
1120 nap
1240 wake and food
240 milk
310 nap
345 wake and milk
645 milk
7  pu/pd for 8 min but became very upset, rocked for 8 min, fell asleep at 716

So if her naps were longer you're saying she might have been able to do it herself?  I also nursed her even later so I'll try at 630 tomorrow. 

Daycare is flexible so I'll have her switch some of he milk and solids as well as pushing back naps. 

Let me know any thoughts about today's schedule and I'll keep you posted. 

Thanks so much!

[becj86]

Ok, so that first nap is looking better, maybe give it a few days and if its not any longer, you could make it 11:30 and see how she goes there. That PM nap was a good length, really - just want to increase that first nap by 10-20min and you'll probably make it to a BT of 7pm without her getting OT. With that shorter nap, she probably would've been a bit OT at bed, so reasonable to help her get to sleep.

[Jmpratt]

Thanks.  New schedule went well this weekend at home.  First naps were both about 1.5hrs!  2nd naps were 40 min.  Not nearly as much crying but still had to help her all the way to sleep.  I'm gonna. Keep it up like you said and hopefully she gets the hang of it.  Thanks again for setting us straight and I'll be in touch if necessary! 

[becj86]

Sounds great! Once she's a bit more used to the routine and a bit better rested, the sleep training will be much easier with gradual withdrawal.

[Jmpratt]

We're getting into a routine except for bedtime.  I've been adjusting it between 7-8 depending on how long her first nap is and how late her last nap ends.  Anytime I try, she can't seem to get past the 2nd and or 3rd jolt.  She has not put herself to sleep since we started the new schedule.  Tonight she was definite too tired but other nights she wasn't.

Can you give me some direction to gradual withdrawal?   

[Jmpratt]

A schedule update:

Today
A 7-11
S 11-1245
A 1245-4
S 4-5
A 5-8
BT started at 715
Bath song nurse book music
Playing bed for 10 min some self soothing ( I'm staying in the room which I'm thinking is the issue)
Starts crying, I start pu/pd
Crying gets worse, I end up holding for 5 min or so until she falls the rest of the way to sleep.

I've read a few posts about separation anxiety, wi/wo and gradual withdrawal.  I'm thinking of walking out after putting her in bed initially tomorrow.  Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[becj86]

Sorry, on my phone so can't post links properly. Gradual withdrawal is just that - gradual. I think a 3hr a time is pretty reasonable at this age after a 1hr nap. What tine were you aiming for for sleep?

If you feel your being there is distracting, by all means, leave so long as you go back if she cries for you.

[Martini~]

Ha! I just checked that you have your own thread Honey! Great, I see Bec advice is exactly what I thought - firstly check a routine as no method will work with a wrong routine:).