Appropriate method for a Spirited 10 month old?

[Jmpratt]

I have been trying to use pu/pd method since my DS was 7 months with much success sttn but little success with going to sleep on her own. 

I'm concerned it's not the right method after reading some other posts about spirited or touchy babies as well as older babies. 

Thanks! 

Julie

[becj86]

IME, no, PUPD is not a good method for a spirited LO.

Often spirited LOs have very narrow sleep windows and routine is really important to get right. What's your routine at the moment and how are her naps?

Also, spirited LOs do better with gradual withdrawal - hand on LO's back/chest while you sing/say your sleepy phrase then gradually remove yourself from the falling asleep process over time.

[Jmpratt]

Wow thank you so much for responding so quickly and clearly.

My LO definitely has a narrow sleep window!  The times that pu/pd has worked, it's most likely been bc it was the right time.

I have a 3 year old and do routine on my own 4 nights a week so things are not as consistent as they could be.  I've also been trying to go from 3-2 naps this week so things are kind of in flux.  In addition to that, I work outside of the home so I bedtime is rushed when I get home with the girls, 3 nights a week.

Bedtime routine or daily routine? I'm assuming bedtime but if you want our easy let me know.

BT
6pm  nurse, but trying to give solids and wait to nurse before bedtime bc LO starts falling asleep
Dim lights, music in family room, read with toddler, walk around with  LO
615-630 bath
630-645 nurse, trying to move this up bc she fell asleep 2 nights in a row bc she was so tired and I didn't wake her bc she would have been very angry/spirited.
7-715 to sleep

Naps most days are 1030-1145 and 230-330.  Today's: 1030-1210 and 340-410
I did pu/pu tonight and LO took very long to settle after giving up after 20 min and rocking for almost 40 min.   

I really appreciate your help, I don't want to put my LO through more than she needs to. 

BT is so hard bc I am still figuring out her last A time.

Thanks!

[Jmpratt]

One more thing, I have considered the gradual withdrawal method but have no idea how to start if bc I think LO would have just as hard time withy that since she's used to rocking and or nursing on these rare occasions.

Any other posts you can refer me to for this method?  Thanks

[becj86]

No wonder you're having trouble getting her to go to sleep! She's on a great routine for a 6 month old. Can you write out your whole EASY and tell me what things you have to work around - dropoff, pickup, work, etc. and we'll see if we can't come up with a routine in which she may be more inclined to sleep.

I don't think you necessarily have a sleep training issue - has she ever gone to sleep independently? I'd say with this routine it'd be a small miracle so if she has in the last few months, she's got the skill, just not tired enough to use it, perhaps. Either way, it will definitely be an easier job when you've an age-appropriate routine.

[Jmpratt]

Wow!  Too much sleep?  I'm so appreciative of your help!  Yes LO has put herself to sleep over past 3 months but the sickness and teething and evidently developmental changes and it's been about a month,  but yes she can.

Daycare easy
E 7 ish WU and nurse
A drop off at 830
E 930 solids
S 1030-1130 (nap between 45-70 min)
E 1140 solids
A play
E 2 bottle
S 230-315
A play
E 4 bottle
530 pick up
6 get home
615 used to nurse , now trying a fee bites of solids
Wind down
630 bath
645 nurse
7 bed

At home
E 7 WU and nurse
E 8 solids
A play
E 945 nurse top off, just started doing this to help nap longer?
S 1030-12
E 12 nurse
E 1 solids
A play
S 230-315
E 320 nurse
A play
E 5 nurse
E 530 solids
S 6 start winding down
Same BT routine as above

Please tell me what parts are not age appropriate!  Some days she takes 2 45 min naps.  Most days, 1 70 min nap and 1 40 min.

Thank youuuuuu

[becj86]

Some days she takes 2 45 min naps.  Most days, 1 70 min nap and 1 40 min

^ These nap lengths are the main clue - with a sleep cycle of ~40-45min which is typical and clearly what you have here, she's undertired when she's going for her nap. Given how she's going with two shorter naps, she'll probably only take one long nap and a catnap to get her through to bedtime. Feeding her will not make her sleep longer if she's not tired, though I can see that she's going a long time without eating, so it might be worth shifting solids a bit later or adding a quick nurse.

Since A times vary a lot at this age, its probably best to increase little by little if day-care will work with you. I'd try that first nap at 10:45 for a week, then 11 for a week if her naps haven't extended. 4hr should be reasonable at this age. You're looking really for a nap length approaching 1.5hr if not a little more than that. She'll move to one nap eventually and you don't want to be teaching a toddler how to take a long nap again (trust me, BTDT), so its important to keep her body in the habit of taking a long nap so she's not going to get as overtired when she goes to one nap.

Your routine may look more like this:
7 - WU, milk
9:30 - snack
11 - nap
12:30 - wake, milk
2:30 - snack
3:45 nap (aiming for an UT nap so she's easier to wake but may have to move later if she starts to refuse the nap)
4:30 - wake (easiest to just go in at 40min and wake her as she stirs - less crying for you as its less horrible to be worked in light sleep than in the middle of a sleep cycle)
BT - still asleep by 7-7:30
Once she's getting a restorative nap in the day somewhere, she should be able to stay up that bit later and not fall asleep nursing at 6:30.

[Jmpratt]

Ok so here's today's easy and then how BT went.

7 WU milk
10 food
1120 nap
1240 wake and food
240 milk
310 nap
345 wake and milk
645 milk
7  pu/pd for 8 min but became very upset, rocked for 8 min, fell asleep at 716

So if her naps were longer you're saying she might have been able to do it herself?  I also nursed her even later so I'll try at 630 tomorrow. 

Daycare is flexible so I'll have her switch some of he milk and solids as well as pushing back naps. 

Let me know any thoughts about today's schedule and I'll keep you posted. 

Thanks so much!

[becj86]

Ok, so that first nap is looking better, maybe give it a few days and if its not any longer, you could make it 11:30 and see how she goes there. That PM nap was a good length, really - just want to increase that first nap by 10-20min and you'll probably make it to a BT of 7pm without her getting OT. With that shorter nap, she probably would've been a bit OT at bed, so reasonable to help her get to sleep.

[Jmpratt]

Thanks.  New schedule went well this weekend at home.  First naps were both about 1.5hrs!  2nd naps were 40 min.  Not nearly as much crying but still had to help her all the way to sleep.  I'm gonna. Keep it up like you said and hopefully she gets the hang of it.  Thanks again for setting us straight and I'll be in touch if necessary! 

[becj86]

Sounds great! Once she's a bit more used to the routine and a bit better rested, the sleep training will be much easier with gradual withdrawal.

[Jmpratt]

We're getting into a routine except for bedtime.  I've been adjusting it between 7-8 depending on how long her first nap is and how late her last nap ends.  Anytime I try, she can't seem to get past the 2nd and or 3rd jolt.  She has not put herself to sleep since we started the new schedule.  Tonight she was definite too tired but other nights she wasn't.

Can you give me some direction to gradual withdrawal?   

[Jmpratt]

A schedule update:

Today
A 7-11
S 11-1245
A 1245-4
S 4-5
A 5-8
BT started at 715
Bath song nurse book music
Playing bed for 10 min some self soothing ( I'm staying in the room which I'm thinking is the issue)
Starts crying, I start pu/pd
Crying gets worse, I end up holding for 5 min or so until she falls the rest of the way to sleep.

I've read a few posts about separation anxiety, wi/wo and gradual withdrawal.  I'm thinking of walking out after putting her in bed initially tomorrow.  Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[becj86]

Sorry, on my phone so can't post links properly. Gradual withdrawal is just that - gradual. I think a 3hr a time is pretty reasonable at this age after a 1hr nap. What tine were you aiming for for sleep?

If you feel your being there is distracting, by all means, leave so long as you go back if she cries for you.

[Martini~]

Ha! I just checked that you have your own thread Honey! Great, I see Bec advice is exactly what I thought - firstly check a routine as no method will work with a wrong routine:).

[Jmpratt]

Thank you both for posting here and on other threads. 

Bec has definitely helped me out so that our routine is where it needs to be. So now I'm thinking its sleep training related.  The gradual withdrawal makes sense as long as I can stay strong and not pick her up. She is 10 months old, we have done white noise machine since birth, lovie since 5 months, music since 7 months baths but I think it might stimulate her too.

Thanks Martini and Bec. I really appreciate your time.

[Martini~]

If she is 10mo honey really even couple moments in your arm is can be too much and become a prop. No to mention that she is probably a big baby and it's not easy to rock her to sleep, isn't it:)? If you decide to try, keep us posted!

[Jmpratt]

Bec-I'm aiming for BT 3 hrs after WU from last nap.  Is it better to just make it the same time every night to get her into a rhythm or to base it on 3 hr a time?

Bec and Martini-

How do you suggest starting to decrease my involvement from picking her up to soothe her?  I read a post on GW that said to do it gradually so they barely notice.  She definitely noticed when I didn't pick her up and tried to soothe her in the crib.   She became very distressed, finally I let her lean on my arm, rubbed her back, and repeated our phrase.  Night 2 she became more distressed, might have been OT but I still want to figure out how to do it gently to build her confidence.  Not sure how to start without it turning back into pu/pd. 

Do you suggest putting her down each time she sits/stands up?

Lastly, does the method instruct to do GW with NWs too?

Thanks so much, I am still learning obviously and appreciate the guidance.

Julie

[becj86]

For us, we had to go on A time to bed because DS' sleep window was very small. By now, you could probably try a set BT if you, particularly if you felt ok to cap the second nap according to how the day has been.

when is she sitting/standing? I just sat by DS' cot and didn't interact at all so he knew I was there bug wasn't being distracted by me. That was part of him learning to lie down and go to sleep. No point dropping the doing what they're driven to do developmentally IMO. Sleep needs often decrease when they are practising new skills so the behaviour abates once mastery is achieved.

What do you currently do to get her to sleep? Basically you would either move that towards the cot and/or put her into bed slightly earlier in the falling asleep process, so PD drowsy, then slightly more awake and so on.

[Jmpratt]

Started the GW tonight.  I have been putting her down before she is drowsy, she plays in her bed, then starts to cry when she gets tired, I do pd/pd and/or end up pu and rocking her the rest of the way. 

A time tonight was 2 hours 30 min but she does her long a time in the am and then medium a time between naps so the last is her shortest? I'll do some trial and error but I just paid attention to her signals tonight instead of 3 hr mark and it helped. 

I also rocked her for only 5 min then put her in crib as soon as she closed her eyes.  She cried for a second but fell right to sleep when I rubbed her back.  Now I just keep putting her down earlier and earlier gradually right?

She is getting close to walking so the thought about achieving mastery making things easier could definitely be true!


Thanks for the help!!!  So grateful!  I might be in touch again.

Julie

[becj86]

Yes, you may find that instead of picking her up when she starts to cry, you can sort of risk her side to side with your hand or rub her back? I don't know, she may be larger than DS was at 10 months...

Yep, just putting her down as her eyes are starting to close rather than closed and then earlier again as she gets better at it.

[Jmpratt]

So LO is definitely too heavy to pick up and rock.  She normally has 1 nw.  She has had 3 so far and it's 345am here (I'm in Maryland, US).  Because the pu/pd and struggle she had with that helped her to put herself back to sleep the rest of the night, most nights.  Except for the 12 wake up. 

I didn't do any pu last night but held her until she fell asleep, no rocking really but she shifts back and forth in my arms, also hard on my back).  She then has wanted me to put her back to sleep his way every WU.  I've tried soothing her in the crib first for a few minutes rubbing her belly (she won't turn over) or her back while sitting up and she would lay down but get back up when I started rubbing her back.  So I end up poaching her up when she is getting more distressed. 

So the less I intervene and the more she protests at bedtime, the more she knows what she needs to do to sleep through the night.  Does this make sense?  So my choice has seemed to get through he hard BT so she can sleep well all night.  However it's been hard for awhile and I don't think it's helping her learn to self soothe at BT. 

Does it have to get worse before it gets better?  Or do you think there is a way of helping her do what she already knows how to do? 

Thanks for all the hand holding.  I feeling pretty desperate right now.   

[Martini~]

Honey it will be just my opinion but it will get worse for a bit. you may go for extremly gentle methods of weaning rocking/holding like Elisabeth Pantley's one but being honest for some LO it just doesn't work and for some it will take months to get to the final point as you are very slow and gentle with a change. Sometimes going cold turkey really is a better way forward - but it's your decision.

I would just STOP putting her up at all, and holding her at all. When she is in the crib, she IS in the crib. You may put her down, rub her, pat her, reassure with soft words but no sleeping or almost asleep in mummy arms. But that's me, I would go cold turkey as I believe it's ok for LO (yes there will be some crying but you are with her) and it will improve her sleep the quick.

[becj86]

So the less I intervene and the more she protests at bedtime, the more she knows what she needs to do to sleep through the night.  Does this make sense

This totally makes sense - after the developmental leap at 6 months and for quite a while thereafter, LO's need to know their environment hasn't changed from how it was when they went to sleep so they can resettle or they call out for that environment. If that was sitting on your lap, that's where she wants to be, if that's lying in the cot with your hand on her back, that's a lot quicker and easier for a resettle at night. Eventually just you sitting there will be enough and then she should be more able to resettle herself.

It does get worse in the first little while - works great for the first few days, then a regression in which LO tests to see if you're serious that the change is staying so then once you're through that, it gets better. This testing can last longer the older the child, sorry to say. I promise this does get better eventually. xx