Need advice with nap and BT for 15 month old

[NinNic]

Hi,

We had a long period of broken naps and taking ages to fall asleep at BT, due to learning to walk. Things started to get better, then she was sick for 2 weeks. She is ok now, but again starting to take long to fall asleep at both nap time and BT. Normally it takes her max 10 mins to fall asleep for nap and around 30 mins at BT. She will turn 16 months on Monday. I just can't figure it out. I think she already has long A times and she has just started to sleep better for her nap, but usually around 1.5 hrs and now around 11 hr-11.5 hr nights as her days are longer than 12 hrs now as she won't fall asleep earlier. Before she would do 12 hr days and nights when I got her to sleep 1.5 hrs (would wake up a lot so had to get her back to sleep). I´m worried she will get OT with sleep less than 13 hrs as it seems she needed at least 13.5 hrs in total for a long time now.

We started going to open day care as it is called here on Tuesday this week in the mornings for 1-2 hrs. It is for both parents and babies so we go together. She enjoys it. Could this new activity affect her sleep?

Is there a phase at this age or what am I doing wrong here?

When I put her down for nap she seems tired and also at BT. It's hard to read her specially before BT if she is tired or not as she is busy running around and wanting to play during wind down. She is rubbing her eyes a bit in am and pm, her mood is ok.

I have posted last 4 days of EASY:

Mon:
WU 6:14
S 11:32-13:11 (took 15 mins to fall asleep)
BT 18:32 (took 14 mins to fall asleep (very rare falls asleep this quick)

Tues :
Woke 5:30 fell asleep 5:45
WU 6:43
S 12:07 (took 19 mins to fall asleep), woke 13:29 got her back to sleep 13:33-14:06
BT 19:25 (took 27 mins to fall asleep

Wed:
WU 6:40
S 11:47-13:19 (took 14 mins to fall asleep)
BT 19:00 (took 40 mins too fall asleep)

Thu:
WU 6:33
S 11:51-13:33 (took 16 mins to fall asleep
BT 19:33 (took 52 mins to fall asleep)

[NinNic]

Can someone pls have a look at my post, thanks!

[creations]

Hi NicNic
Just letting you know your thread has been noticed and highlighted.  Some support will be your way soon - sorry it was missed x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hi there! Sorry your post was missed.

I am thinking she might be ot/os from the new open daycare and with the earlier wake up and shorter naps that maybe she needs a bit earlier bedtime. I know with my ot only shows up in crazy silliness not tired signs as one would expect! So when she is running around at bedtime I wonder has she got her second wind and perhaps miht have gone down more easily if bt had been sooner?

[NinNic]

Thanks for your reply!

Maybe you are right that she needs sooner BT. How much sooner do you think I should try with? Do I put her down earlier for nap also and how early?

I´m trying to push so that once day light saving time comes it won´t be that bad. It starts here in 1 weeks time. Can I still push 15 mins at a time? How do I do that if I need to put her down earlier for nap and BT?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Sorry I have no experience with daylight savings, we don't change our clocks here! The nap would not necessarily have to be earlier for ebt to work...it looks like the day she went down at 6:30 she went to sleep quicker so I would maybe use that as a jumping off point.

[NinNic]

Hi there,

Thanks for your reply. Haven't been able to write as LO has been sick. Will write soon as things are not going too well. Just wanted to ask if possible that she is in 18 month regression (she is 16 monhts now)? Took her almost 1.5 hrs to fall asleep last night. Prevoius evenings around 50 mins. Naps are bad also, also think its due to caughing.

[creations]

Sorry to hear your LO has been poorly.

Some LOs have the 18 month regression early, some later.  Mine was around 16 months so it's certainly possible.

[NinNic]

Thanks for your quick reply!

How long did it last for and what was it like?

Just feel like the bad naps have been going on for ages also taking so long to settle at BT!

[creations]

I think it was so bad I chose to wipe it from my memory. Sleep regression plus teething, plus cold viruses, urgh, glad that's all in the past.  Sorry not to be of much help with exact details of how long it lasted (prob about 2 months) or what it was like (hell), there's a support thread here if you'd like to speak with others going through the same.
18 month sleep regression support thread-part 3

And we can help you here with routine tweaks if you want to post what's happening now.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Like creations I also don't remember much about that time with DD1 (the only one who I am sure hit the regression!) but I know it is totally possible for it to start early, every child is so different so they don't always follow the same pattern.

[NinNic]

Hi again,

Found some time to write finally. Things are out of control so really need some advice. LO has had a nasty virus infection with cough. She is still coughing, but I don't believe it is only the coughing keeping her awake for sooooo long at night anymore. These are our last days of EASY:

Thu:
WU around 7
S 12:00-13:36 (took 14 mins to fall asleep) woke 12:48 pat her fell asleep 12:52
BT 19:39 (took 1 hr 20 mins to fall asleep)
Woke 23:15 coughing crying and crying fell asleep 1:45

Fri:
WU 6:05
S 9:15 (cried so pat her took 17 mins to fall asleep) woke her 9:34 (did short CN here as she woke early and not enough sleep at night)
S 12:11-13:48 (took 24 mins to fall asleep) woke 12:48 pat her fell asleep 12:55, waking up few times after so stayed and pat her when she was moving around
BT 18:40 (took 30 mins to fall asleep, which hasn’t happened a lot in a long time- think cause she was so tired)
Woke 22:40 coughing DH pat her fell asleep 00:45

Sat:
WU around 6:50
S 11:31-13:21 (took 16 mins to fall asleep, put to bed a bit earlier as so tired), woke 13:07 pat her fell asleep
BT 19:12 (took 1 hr 22 mins to fall asleep, was crying a lot had to go in and sit with her and pat also
Woke 23:15 coughing at first then crying and crying for 3 hrs!!! Nothing was working finally fell asleep 2:20 with some patting

Sun:
WU 6:55-11:44 (took 10 mins to fall sleep, put to bed a bit earlier as tired)

My questions are:

1. Do you think this is 18 month SR? I have checked her teeth and it's not teething, I can't think that it is anything else except coughing, which shouldn't take her so long to settle once her coughing has settled at night. It has never been this bad only when she has been really sick.

2. How do we deal with her crying in middle of night as nothing seems to help?? We have tried WI/WO for BT in past but that does not work with her she just gets more worked up and upset and takes ages for her to calm down. Even patting her for so long does not help as she is still upset, only seems to work when she is ready to calm down herself.

3. I don't want patting to become a prop, but I have done this so long now specially to resettle for naps. Is this a prop now?? Can I do something else to resettle?

4. When she is upset and crying at BT we go in and sit with her and pat if needed until calm or until asleep if really upset. Is this ok or do we do something else? WI/WO does not work as I mentioned.

5. If she does manage to sleep through her nap it is not more than 1.5 hrs, only if she wakes in middle and I have to pat her to sleep again I can get her to sleep around 2 hrs by sitting there in case she starts waking again, which is really not fun! How do I get her to nap 2 hrs or might this never happen?

6. How do we deal with her not getting OT when she is sleeping so few hours at night now and still naps same in the

7. Do you think I need to increase A in morning? Can that have anything to do with NW? We are on 5 hr A in am and around 5.5 hr in pm. Just thought 5 hr A was enough as she rarely sleeps through nap when A was around 5.25 hr even 5.5 hr before I cut to 5 hr A. Confused with A times now as she is grumpy and sleeps so little at night with long NW's. What do I do?

[creations]

I'll do what I can to answer some of your questions

1. Do you think this is 18 month SR?

Yes it could certainly be. Can't say for sure of course. Part of the 18 month regression is that teething is often on and off around this time and you can't really know for sure that teething isn't playing a part, the 2nd year molars can be moving for ever before they finally come through (I had a year of non-stop teething pain here, only 3 days rest between the canines and the molars, those 3 days were bliss!  ...and really showed that an independent sleeper really just wants to be asleep, when they are in pain they just cannot do it, no amount of help is too much IMO). Another aspect of the 18 month regression is a big language leap, I do remember that (around 18 and 21 months), terrible sleep and then suddenly new words pop out.  Yet another aspect is that around birthday and half birthday (so 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5 etc) sleep and mood often goes crazy, there is nothing to 'fix' it, only to know you are not the only one with a child who goes through it and to be as calm and patient as possible.

2. How do we deal with her crying in middle of night as nothing seems to help??

Through teething, illness, developmental leap or half birthdays there isn't much you can do to make her calm or make her sleep, all you can really do is be there for her. It may appear that patting doesn't help but knowing you are there with her means a lot to her.  I'd probably set up a comfy chair in the room, pick her up and have a cuddle for as long as it takes.  If you're dealing with 1hr+ and suspect it will continue I'd be tempted to prepare a flask of tea for the night shift.  If it is super bad I would probably take her out of the room for a little while and see if she'll calm. Mine has only come back downstairs after BT maybe 4 or 5 times in his life but during teething there was literally nothing could be done other than to distract him from his pain with cuddles and low key (calm) kids TV which I'd pre-recorded.  It's absolutely not something I'd do every night but it helped here on the very worst of the teething times.
Sometimes I took mine out of his room and just went and sat on my bed, the change in location seemed to help him calm down.

3. I don't want patting to become a prop

I wouldn't worry about patting being a prop.  The amount of NW you have and the length of them means there is *something* going on which she needs support through.  Tweaking times on your day routine may help with the patting at nap time.

4. When she is upset and crying at BT we go in and sit with her and pat if needed until calm or until asleep if really upset. Is this ok or do we do something else?

I seem to have a memory of lots of BWers saying they had taken their LOs into their own bed during the 18 month regression. I might have done it myself a few nights (I'm trying to remember if it was the 18 month regression, think it must have been), the regression is such a crazy time, it's like all bets are off.  I didn't take mine into my own bed as a matter of course, but more like a few times when things were really bad.  They need a lot of comfort.
But, yes it's ok to sit with her and pat her.

5. If she does manage to sleep through her nap it is not more than 1.5 hrs, only if she wakes in middle and I have to pat her to sleep again I can get her to sleep around 2 hrs by sitting there in case she starts waking again, which is really not fun! How do I get her to nap 2 hrs or might this never happen?

Maybe 1.5 hrs is just her natural sleep time.

7. Do you think I need to increase A in morning?

I would set the nap time regardless of what time she wakes.  Usually LOs over 1yo and on one nap do better on a set nap time.
I think I'd try to reduce the last A time though, has she always done a longer A time to BT or is this because of where her nap is??
With an 11 to 11.5 hr night she needs to be going to bed more like 7.30pm really for a 6.30/7am WU, in which case the nap needs to move much later to prevent an even longer A time to bed...unless as I say she's always preferred a super long A to BT.
Maybe:
WU 6.30/7
(roughly 6hr)
nap 1.00 - 2.30
(roughly 5hr)
BT 7.30

What do you think?  You know her best

[NinNic]

Hi,

Thanks so much for your advice! 

I feel she needs total sleep of 13-13.5 hrs in 24 hrs. If she sleeps 1.5 hrs for nap and only 11 hrs at night it is on the low side for her. When I do get her to sleep 2 hrs for nap it seems she does better length at night.

1.Do you really think 1.5 hrs is enough for nap for 16 month old who is not LSN?

I tried set nap at 11:30 when she was waking around 6-6:30 am or even earlier and it didn't seem to work too well meaning she would still wake early for her nap. She seems to get tired earlier in morning and have longer A time to BT. I have tried to put her down earlier many times, but she seems to still do 5.25-5.5 hrs A time. If she is tired like she has been for past days because of NW or when sick she does shorter A to BT.

2. When she wakes after 1.25 hrs for nap or even earlier is that not due to OT as I can get her back to sleep usually by patting?

3.  Do you still think I should increase her morning A time, which is now around 5 hrs? I think 6 hrs is a lot for her. Or do you think that if I push morning A then A to BT will be naturally shorter?

Before her NW BT was around 7:30 pm. As it is taking her so long to fall asleep at BT, BT varies a lot at mo. I do feel she needs at least 11.5 hrs at night so around 7 am-7:30 pm days would be ideal.

I´m just a bit worried as I pushed her too much when she transitioned to 1 nap when she was 1 years old. She became OT and slept around 10-11 hrs at night which was not enough for her. She was then having 5 to even 6 hrs A time in morning, which was way too long. In beginning she would do long naps of around 2 hrs for a while, but then it all came crashing down it seemed. I think because of OT or maybe it was a developmental thing around 1 year I'm not sure, but she was waking early in morning for a long time. So thought it was better to have around 5 hr A in morning for her.

4. Do you think I should have same A time to BT if she sleeps 1.5 hrs for nap as for 2 hr nap?

5. How do we deal with her not getting OT when she is sleeping so few hours at night now with NW?

Thanks in advance 

[creations]

I may have read this incorrectly but the information you have given seems to suggest she was doing this:
WU 6/6.30
set nap 11.30 - 1pm (as you said she was still waking early from nap I assume around this time)
BT 7.30pm (you said it was 7.30 before she started NWs)

Is this right? Was this the set nap time an set BT you had?