Need advice with nap and BT for 15 month old

[NinNic]

Sorry if not being clear. I tried set nap back in sept at 11:30-1 pm with WU around 5:30-6 am rather than 6:30 and BT would be around 6-6:30 pm. She would do around 11.5-12 hr nights when she slept 1.5 hrs for nap. She has since then been sick a lot and woken later in morning, which meant I could put her down later so she would still have 5 hr A in morning, which has led to:
WU 6:30-7 am
nap after 5 hrs A 11:30/12:00-13:00/13:30/14:00
BT 5-5.5 hrs after A in afternoon (around 6:30-7.30 pm, varies though as she has been ill and when not ill many times taking her so long to settle)

She was waking early from nap when she had over 5 hr A in morning usually so that is why I stopped set nap. She can still wake early from nap with 5 hr A (feel its better though compared to longer A) but might be because of illness or developmental I'm not sure anymore!

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I think I would just set nap and BT and let her self regulate.
I'm not sure I've seen a thread where a toddler didn't do better on a set nap and set BT although that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means I wouldn't really know how else to help.

For clarity, I wasn't suggesting a direct leap to 1pm nap but to move there over a period of days.
It may even be that if you set nap at 12.30 and stuck there with 7/7.30 set BT (I don't mean to fluctuate between these times I mean to choose one and stick there, if you think 5.5hr A time suits her better to BT then I'd go for 7.30) she could get used to the times and self regulate, meaning if she takes a 1.5hr nap then you just get her up, if she takes a 2hr nap then you let her. You would still do BT at the same time, 7.30pm.
She would need time to settle into this. Once settled into it she would likely show you if her nap is at the right time by her mood and sleep times.  She'd be able to sleep as long as she wanted at night and as long as she wanted at nap...and really that's all the sleep she will give you.

when she transitioned to 1 nap when she was 1 years old. She became OT and slept around 10-11 hrs at night which was not enough for her.

Just going back to this. This sounds very normal to me. LOs often get OT during nap drops, it's just part of the process really.

then it all came crashing down it seemed. I think because of OT or maybe it was a developmental thing around 1 year I'm not sure, but she was waking early in morning for a long time.

And this sounds very much like birthday time behaviour.  We see sleep disturbance or mood/behaviour changes in LOs of every age when they hit their birthday 1, 2, 3, 4... and every half birthday too 1.5, 2.5, 3.5...
It wasn't necessarily your routine, it's just how LOs are with all their developments and growing and phases of equilibrium and disequilibrium.

Sorry she's been so poorly, it's no fun for anyone is it? And it results in you being so unsure about her routine and so on. Mine teethed his entire second year, it was awful, it does pass though.

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Have you seen this?
Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When

[NinNic]

Hi and thanks for your reply! 

Thanks for the link, yes I have read it in the past when doing set nap. 

Just to clarify, do you think she needs more than 5 hrs A time in morning, which she is on now, as 12:30 nap would mean 5.5-6 hrs A depending on when she wakes in morning? Would longer A in morning make her more tired in pm so she would need less A in pm? I have seen here that some need longer A to BT than in morning so just thought LO was also in that category, although I know many have longer A in morning and shorter in pm like you say. I'm just confused... 

Do you believe her broken naps are due to OT or UT? I just thought it was OT when she usually wakes after 1.25 hrs or less and I can usually get her back to sleep sometimes can take a long time though? Do I try to get her back to sleep when she has slept 1.25 hrs?

Last night she woke around 3:15 am coughing a lot and took almost an hour to settle. If she sleeps in in the morning do I let her or wake her at 7 am when she has had long NW? Do I also put her down for nap at set nap time or a bit earlier if I see she can't make it?

Teething for a year does sound awful! Was that all the molars and canines or even more than those? This cough is not going away so no it is not fun at all as it is mainly at night it comes!

Thanks again! 

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Set naps and BTs are not about A times so whilst you wouldn't choose something extremely early or late you would set somewhere reasonable (nap 12.30, BT 7.30) and just stick with it.  If you don't this this is suitable then how about nap 12 and BT 7?

She would need time to settle into this. Once settled into it she would likely show you if her nap is at the right time by her mood and sleep times.  She'd be able to sleep as long as she wanted at night and as long as she wanted at nap...and really that's all the sleep she will give you.

Have you taken her to the doctor about this continuing cough?  Do you think it may be an asthma related cough or something of that sort?  Really if she is coughing every night it can't be expected that she sleeps through.

[NinNic]

Today WU 6:45, nap at 12:18, had to resettle her as she woke early from nap, woke 14:13, BT asleep 7:05 pm. Today she has been quite grumpy, might also be OT from NW, developmental o WW which is starting also.

With NW would you put down for nap a bit earlier if very tired?

Her cough is due to virus, which a lot of toddlers have at mo here and I´ve been told it can take up to 1 month with cough to go away. Doctor won´t give anything for it as it is a virus. They don't recommend cough mixture for babies and toddlers here.

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During illness routines do go right off. You are in a position where you are trying to set a suitable routine and deal with this cough at the same time, which does happen with LOs, they can't just give us one thing at a time can they?
As she does not seem super ill in the day I would go for the 12.30 nap with possibly just 15 mins earlier to take the illness into account.  Generally with set naps and set BT you stick to the times but do keep an eye on a bit of flexibility if they are ill or had an unusually stimulating or physical activity as a one off thing.
She does have the opportunity to sleep later in the morning or longer for nap so you are not depriving her of any sleep.

I don't give cough medicine either, horrible stuff IMO, but I just thought if it was lingering a long time maybe an asthma related cough or something in her bedroom causing a cough in the night??

[NinNic]

Hi,

Thanks so much for info! 

Just few questions as haven't had time to post properly yet. Her cough is better now, but think her canines are on the way. Last night she was ok going to bed at BT but after about 35 mins in bed she started really crying like she was in pain. Took 2 hrs to fall asleep, which was at 8:40 pm. She then woke 11:50 pm crying so much, gave her pain killers and some other things we have for teething, took her over 2 hrs to go back to sleep. I can't think of anything else causing her pain. Her gum doesn't look swollen yet but can it still be teething causing pain?

She woke this morning at 8:15 am. She has only had 9 hrs sleep at night. Do I put her down normal nap time (at mo its around 12:15 pm). Was thinking of putting her down for 12 as she seems tired). Also she is starting baby swimming this afternoon so want her to get a good nap before as it starts 2:20 pm.

DoI put her to bed earlier if she is really tired from baby swimming and also as she hasnt had that much sleep in the night?

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Yes it can still be teeth even if you can't see them moving or red gums.

Sounds like you have a good plan for today, hope the nap works out for you and you all enjoy the swim class.

[NinNic]

Thanks! 

Do you advice snything else accept pain killers for teething?

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At the worst times of teething I used ibuprofen and paracetamol, spaced out so they were roughly 2hrs apart, but always follow the dosage guidance.  I would likely give ibuprofen before BT when he had not long eaten and to help him get to sleep and save a dose of paracetamol for in the night or as a dream med.
Otherwise chewing on plastic toys, teethers, frozen muslin cloth (damp and put in freezer for LO to chew on), stick of celery, chill-able teether, hard foods such as bread sticks
Sorry I know of nothing else to advise. I know people use teething powders and teething necklaces but I didn't.

[NinNic]

Hi there,

I´m back again.

Thanks for your previous info! 

I have a few questions regarding EASY we are on. I have posted EASY below.

LO is now 17 months old. She has had some NW since I last wrote can be due to teething or SR. She is still teething and I can see one of canines coming through. In general she is very moody lately so I assume it is teething related. She also had her 10th WW. Not sure if she is still going through 18 month SR or if teehting is factor of NW or maybe EASY needs a tweek? 3 hr NW seems very long though!

I´m aiming for EASY that looks like this, which you advised:
WU 6:30/7am
S 12:30 for 1.5-2 hrs
BT 19:30
As it takes her long to settle for BT I usually put her to bed a bit earlier so she has bit more than 30 mins to settle.

My questions are really:

1. Do you think I need to tweak her EASY as it seems to take her long to settle for nap? If so, what would EASY look like?

2. Do I not resettle her if she wakes after less than 1.5 hrs or 1.5 hrs nap? I assumed she needed 2 hrs nap to be rested but maybe this is not the case? She seems to be fine after 1.5 hrs nap usually.

3. Do I need to wake her in morning around 7 am to keep EASY more or less the same? Also when she has had long NW?

4. Can the long nap on Wed have led to such a long NW?

5. On Saturdays she needs to be up at 1:55 pm for us to get to her swim class, which means she would sleep less than 1.5 hrs. Do I put her to bed a bit earlier at BT?

Mon:
WU around 8 am as had NW
S 12:47 took 22 mins to fall asleep, woke 13:29 pat to sleep 13:31, woke 14:09 pat to sleep 14:15 but moving a lot and woke again
BT 19:02 put to bed 18:45 was crying stopped after a minute or so
Around 2 am heard her talking fell asleep again

Tues:
WU 6:27
S 12:21 took 10 mins to fall asleep, woke 13:59 seemed grumpy and tired so got her back to sleep 14:16-14:25
BT 19:18 took 30 mins to fall asleep
Woke 5:15 am (might be because of coughing) didn’ fall asleep so pat her fell asleep 6 am

Wed:
WU 6:42
S 12:31 took 10 mins to fall asleep, woke 13:57 pat her back to sleep 14:03-14:50
BT 19:35 took 40 mins to fall asleep
Woke around 11:15 pm wanting to play might have been teething too but was not crying only when we left her, she wanted us to pat her fell asleep 2:10 am

Thu:
WU 7:10
S 12:46-14:15 took her 20 mins to fall asleep
BT 19:08 took 20 mins to fall asleep crying when put to bed then stopped after 1 minute
Talking a bit around 11 pm don’t think she woke fully
Talking 5:50 am fell asleep again

Fri:
WU 7:04
S 12:46-13:58 took 24 mins to fall asleep, tried to get back to sleep for 25 mins

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Hi
I'll see if I can answer your questions

1. Do you think I need to tweak her EASY as it seems to take her long to settle for nap? If so, what would EASY look like?

10-20 mins to fall to sleep at nap time is reasonable.  Mine always liked to stay up until the last few mins, very short wind down and then asleep almost instantly but not all toddlers are the same, many do take 20 mins to fall to sleep and that's just their nature.

2. Do I not resettle her if she wakes after less than 1.5 hrs or 1.5 hrs nap? I assumed she needed 2 hrs nap to be rested but maybe this is not the case? She seems to be fine after 1.5 hrs nap usually.

1.5hr nap is fine, it is still a restorative sleep.  you might find after the 18 month regression or after the teething that she returns to more of a 2hr nap or maybe settles right into the 1.5hr nap. Really either is fine at this point.

3. Do I need to wake her in morning around 7 am to keep EASY more or less the same? Also when she has had long NW?

I think I would wake her at 7am yes.  If you want the day to be predictable then starting with a predictable WU time is helpful.  You may find that waking her at 7am helps with her falling to sleep more readily at nap time or that nap increase to 2hr...and you might not but it's worth sticking to 7am WU for a little while to see what happens.  If she has had a really terrible night due to illness or obvious teething I might let her sleep in one day, not too late, maybe 7.30am.  However if she has NW and there is no illness or teething then I would stick to 7am WU because otherwise if she is having UT NWs you will only perpetuate them by letting her sleep in.  Hope this makes sense, you have to make the call based on what her NWs are like and if she is in pain.  I wouldn't regularly let her sleep late though - if she regularly wants to sleep late and is not having NW then the routine needs a tweak as her night is not long enough for her.

4. Can the long nap on Wed have led to such a long NW?

Yes maybe.  It did go over 2hr even though there was a WU in there.  At this age there are so many things that can disturb the night, sometimes you may be able to see the cause and sometimes not. Try not to get too hung up on one bad night but look across a period of a week or two weeks to see if real changes need to be made.

5. On Saturdays she needs to be up at 1:55 pm for us to get to her swim class, which means she would sleep less than 1.5 hrs. Do I put her to bed a bit earlier at BT?

I would put her to bed a bit earlier yes. Probably about 30 mins.

Good luck   I remember how exhausted I was when my DS was between 12 and 24 months (oh ok from 0 - 24 months!!), I think he teethed the entire year but for 3 days!  The good news is that the 18 months regression, the teething and this year do not go one for ever. It really does get better!

[NinNic]

Hi and thanks so much for all advice! 

Usually it takes her about 10 mins to fall asleep for nap. Do I put her down a bit earlier if taking longer to settle as that is the case at mo?

So I guess I should leave nap at 12:30 pm when she wakes at 7 am? You mentioned before that she might need 6 hr A in morning, which would mean 1 pm nap time.

She woke early this morning around 6 am and couldn't get her back to sleep. She had less than 11 hr night. Do I still put her to sleep at usual nap time and BT also meaning more than 13 hr day?

Yes it is so exhausting! I'm very glad to hear it won't last forever!! I thought things would get better after 18 month regression?!

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If there is the odd day where she wakes early or takes longer to go down for a nap I wouldn't change anything, just keep going with the set times. If it's every day that she's waking early (looks like it is not as there was some later waking too) or every day she is taking longer to settle for nap then things may need a small change. Looks like she is taking 10 mins some days and more like 20 mins other days to go to sleep for her nap.  I wouldn't think 20 mins a major concern but if it is constantly then I'd prob go up 10 mins later and see if she will go to sleep faster, she may or may not, some just like their time to fall to sleep.

So I guess I should leave nap at 12:30 pm when she wakes at 7 am? You mentioned before that she might need 6 hr A in morning, which would mean 1 pm nap time.

Really either is fine so long as you are consistent. If the nap needs to move later I'd go in 15 min increments, so rather than moving directly to 1pm I'd move to 12.45 and see how things pan out. What you need to bare in mind is that the later her set nap the more disrupted her routine is when you have swim class.  Set routines work better when every day is the same.