pre-BT wake time for 4 MO?

[Swannie]

Hi All:
I posted recently on the naps board (the usual complaint of short naps).  No improvement at all but I have given up and just hoping it will pass eventually.

Now DD2 is in a the full-fledged 4 month sleep regression.  Waking every 2 hours at night (I only feed twice, other times are pat-shh or variation).

My question now is how to deal with the A time before bed.  Because her naps are so short the third nap often ends sometime around 4 or 4:30pm.  This is too far away from a 7:30pm BT, so I often APOP a ten minute stroller or carrier nap 2hr after the wake up from nap 3.  Now I am wondering if this is making our night issues worse?

Any thoughts?  The sleep right now is so horrendous that I am not expecting any miracles.....

[jessmum46]

I'd do an early bedtime around 6.30 in preference to a 4th nap at this age.  Have you got a routine post going somewhere?  Did you want to post here and see if some different eyes could help?

[Swannie]

The routine fell apart because of illness and immunizations, and now we appear to be having phase 2 of the four month growth spurt.  Once things (hopefully) even out in the new few days, I will post the routine.

[jessmum46]

Will look forward to seeing it

[Swannie]

Hi.  We have a bit of coherence as far as a routine now, a bit.  As you will see, there are some inconsistencies, but we are trying our best...

DD2 is 4.5 months, very active and spirited.  I am seeking advice on the following:

-how to drop that 4th nap? Or at least get it so that it can be in the stroller and end by 4:45 or 5 when I want to be picking up DD1 at daycare...)
-how to get back to only 2 NFs (we were good until the 4 months sleep regression started)
-what is the longest that DD2 should be awake between the last nap and BT
-any other tips that may help us to get more sleep...

Wednesday:
6:40: W/U
7:10: E, top-up at 8:10
8:20-9:40: S
10:30: E
11:40-12:15: S
1:30: E
2:00-2:40: S
3:15: E (VERY HUNGRY)
4:45-5:20: S
5:45: E
7:10: E
7: 40: BT
10:30: W/U (pat shh)
12:40: NF
5:00 NF
6:22: W/U

Thursday
6:22: W/U
7:15: E
8:15-9:15: S
10: E
11:30-12:15 S (car, stroller)
1:00: E
2:20-2:55: S
4:00: E
5:20-5:40: S (capped, stroller)
6:00: E
7:15: E
7:30: BT
12:20: NF
3:20: NF
5:45: W/U, soiled diaper....NF because I was too tired to pat shh
7:10: W/U

Friday
7:10: W/U
8: E
9:05-9:40: S
11: E
11:55-12:30: S
1:45: E
2:30-3:05: S
4:15: E
5:05-5:35: S (stroller)
6:30: E
7:30 E
7: 50: BT
10:40: W/U pat shhh for a long time
12:00: NF
3:00: NF
5:15: W/U....tried pat shhh until 6 and then caved and did NF
8:15: W/U (we all felt glorious after this indulgence)

[Swannie]

Thoughts anyone??  It's now deteriorated to 7 NWs.  I am so tired.  The last two days we tried a 7pm BT after three 30 min naps.

[trimbler]

Hey, sorry this seems to have got missed I have a few thoughts, but suspect that things may have changed since you last posted...

Well, fwiw, I think she sounded a bit OT there, with all those short naps. Have you tried reducing the A time after a short nap? Many LOs just get into a frustrating OT cycle after a short nap, as they can't manage a full A time. Actually at this age I decided to just aim for one long nap in the sling each day, since both mine were short-nappers. It helped to reset them a bit and help them catch up, so that they could manage a decent A time before the next nap in the cot. Do you think something like that could work for you?

The other thing with short naps is whether you're trying to resettle them? And if so, what have you tried, and what tends to happen? Does she get to sleep independently?

I noticed that she had a nice first nap on the Wednesday after 1h 40min A time, but they weren't so long on the following days after a longer A time, so perhaps try a little less...but then again we're a couple of weeks on now so hard to guess! Maybe try 1h 45 and see what happens?

As for the 4th nap/EBT, if you have to collect DD1 you may find EBT difficult and need to do the 4th nap so as not to have too long an A to bed, but I'd tend to agree that EBT is likely to work better at this stage. As for how long an A to do before bed, these LOs do seem to vary...mine would need it really short if it was a CN, and many need it a bit less than their A times earlier in the day. But bear in mind, mine were always on the low end for A times, so I do tend to be biased in that direction One thing I found helpful was to try and keep track of the amount of overall sleep in 24h that resulted in a happy settled baby (I know, it may not happen as often as we like...) and then each day I'd look back over it and see how much A time they'd accrued. If they were already headed for their maximum ideal total A time in 24h, I'd go for EBT. If they'd napped well, or even short napped but had short A times and I felt they needed a bit more A, I'd go for a short CN so that they could have a little more A afterwards, iyswim??

As for NFs, she certainly seemed hungry that Wednesday! But I suspect she may be over the GS by now? Hopefully if she can get out of the OT cycle she'll start waking less frequently at night. Tbh 3x NFs isn't so unusual at this age, and it's hard if you've been trying to resettle for ages as they might be genuinely hungry by then anyway from having been awake for so long. So I guess I'm hoping that the NFs will sort themselves out once the OT cycle is broken...what do you think?

Sorry, I realise much of this may be out of date now, do update us and we'll do our best not to miss you again

[jessmum46]

Dropping by with hugs and many apologies, thanks to Trimbler for catching this.  Fell off my replies list somehow great advice from Trimbler and I hope you can let us know how you are getting on x

[Swannie]

Thanks. Here is my update.  She can now handle a longer A time before BT, so we don't need to resort to the "emergency" fourth nap very often. I think we are finally out of the 30-min nap cycle, but the nights are still very restless and she only does one "long" nap a day (the first one).  This was yesterday:

7:45am: W/U
9:45-11: S
1:15-2: S
4:00-45: S
7:05: put in crib for BT...she rolled around, squealed, blew bubbles and occasionally fussed until 7:30
12:20am: NF
2:50-4:45am: AWAKE! I offered another NF somewhere within the first 40 minutes. She didn't take very much.  She then alternated between playing, chatting, and crying during this 2 hours of nonsense.  We share a room.....
7:15am: W/U

(and she started her first nap just now at 9:15am)

I didn't write her feeds because they were quite irregular yesterday.  She'd get distracted and stop eating...and then an hour later be ravenous.  She seems to be getting enough during the day though and almost seems ready to drop the second night feed, if I wasn't using it out of desperation.....

She turned 5 months yesterday.  She has been falling asleep independently since age 3 months...and I am still waiting to reap the benefits of that....

If anyone has thoughts on how to get the second nap to be longer and, more importantly, the nights to be less ridiculous, please speak!  We've been in this "regression" for a month now.....

[trimbler]

What's she like when she wakes from the second nap? Does she seem like she really needs more sleep, or just like she's ready to get up? Do you try to resettle? Tbh at this age I cheated on the second nap as I had to be out for preschool collection so she had it in the sling, and I'd get a long/resettled one like that

I'd guess she was OT by BT yesterday, and that's why she had that long nw. You may need to reduce the next A after a short nap, or do EBT or something. But let's focus on the positive - the great first nap so you know what sort of A time to aim for there, that's a great place to start from now you can try pulling back to 2h or pushing for longer for the second A until you find what works... Hmm... I'm going to guess you need to push, fwiw

[Swannie]

Ok, thanks.  I had guessed that she was UT at bedtime since she played around so much before sleeping....but OT would explain that ridiculously long NW.

Should I try to aim for a 2.5 hour A time before nap 2 today?

Oh, and I have tried resettling off and on for the past two months.  It has only worked a handful of times and that was when she was sick.  She is too easily stimulated so I am best to just stay out of her sight until it is clear that she is not going back to sleep.  The odd time she will wake at 45 min and then go back to sleep within the same nap.  This is rare though.  She usually wakes up and is ready for action!

If we APOP a stroller or carrier nap she wakes at the 30 min mark.  So a crib nap is better, unless I need to be out.

And thanks for reminding me to focus on the positive.  We have nap 1 figured out!

[Swannie]

Update: Nap 1 was 2 hours!  Amazing.

I did a second A time of 2hr20 min and got a 30 min nap.    I guess I pushed it too far.

Next A time will be 2 hours or less..and hopefully nap 3 will be at least 45 minutes!

[trimbler]

Sorry not to have got to you earlier. I expect the long first nap was partly catching up from the night, so 2h 20 might have just been too long, as you say. Btw the advice to push was a complete guess, it may be that you need to reduce the second A instead, really hard to know from a distance, I'd just say keep tweaking and see what happens, eventually you'll hit on something but don't necessarily expect it to be consistent every day. Also bear in mind that things like over-stimulation can come into play and cause short naps too.

[Swannie]

It's a puzzle!  Today nap 1 was 45 minutes, after a 2hr A time.  Nap 2 was 1hr10 min.  Nap 3 was 45 minutes.  BT was 7pm.

For the past week she has been waking 1hr45 min after going to bed.  She is trying to "crawl" and rolling all over the place until her arms gets stuck or she reaches the top of the crib and has no more room to move.  Sometimes it takes awhile to help her settle down..and sometimes I actually have to gently hold her body in place so she will stop moving and relax and go back to sleep. This happens during the night too.  She still wakes up a minimum of 4 times per night.  Is there anything I can do, or just wait it out?  I don't expect she will actually be able to crawl for at least a month.

[Swannie]

She woke every two hours all night (with NFs at 11:30 and 3:30).  After waking at 5:45am, she was up for the day, despite our best efforts.

This regression has been going on for 5 weeks now and I'm starting to feel hopeless.