pre-BT wake time for 4 MO?

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) it does sound a lot like a developmental spurt interfering with sleep, but I know it's almost impossible to enjoy these developments when you're feeling so sleep deprived! Has this trying to crawl been going on for five weeks? Or do you think there have been several things one after another interfering with her sleep?

Any time you want to post your EASY routine (more helpful than just the nap lengths and BT, for getting the whole picture) then feel free to do so here, and we'll have another think...

[Swannie]

Thanks.  Yesterday was a great nap day, but still a rough night.  We have moved her to the playpen temporarily, so that she wont keep banging her little head on the crib rails and getting her wee, chubby arm stuck.  It seemed to really work for the naps and I was hopeful for the night, but she still woke every 2.5 hours.

Here is my memory of yesterday:

5:45am: W/U (ouch!)  (tried shh patt, etc but gave up at 6:45am)
7:00: E
7:45: E (top-up...she seems to always eat this way in the morning)
8-9:30am: S  (crib)
10 and 11: E (again, she has been clustering her a.m. feeds and that seems to be working for us..)
11:25: put in playpen for nap attempt....crying, etc and then asleep at 11:45-12:30- woke up happy and chatting.
1:30: E
2:20-4:20: S in playpen (insert victory dance here!)
4:30: E
6:30: E
6:40: BT (tried to do this earlier, but had toddler issues...)
9:10: W/U (pat shh, singing, etc until 9:30)
12:00: W/U, NF
2:40: W/U....offered NF, she refused, so I held her for a bit and then back in crib
3:10: W/U, NF (full)
7:00: W/U for day  (this last stretch of sleep was an improvement!)

Since she had great naps yesterday, I am still puzzled as to which she woke so much at night.

On another note, she is now sleeping in our dining room, which I have converted to a nursery with the playpen, rocking chair, black out blinds (a towel) and white noise.  I know Tracy says in her book that it is disrespectful to have your baby sleep in a common area, but I am losing it a little bit and need to get more sleep.  We also cease all activity in the area when she is sleeping.  The goal is to move her to share with her sister once her nightwakings improve to just a feed or two.

[Swannie]

Quick update: Nap 1 was 2hr20 min in her crib!  Now I am rethinking the playpen...

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) for last night, but wow on the naps What was she doing during the NWs? Trying to crawl? Screaming? Fidgeting? Chatting?

[Swannie]

During the nightwakings she was crying and fussing at first.  Once she was responded to, she calmed down and then was chatting and looking around.  When she is in her crib for the NWs she is usually trying to crawl and then crumpling into the crib rails and getting angry.

Nap 2 in the playpen today was 35 minutes.  She's discovered that she can move around a lot in there too.  Not worth it, so I am bringing her back in the crib with me tonight.  Just trying to find something that works.  She did wake up from that nap chatty and happy, so I don't feel too terrible about moving her sleeping space so much...

Oh, and to answer an earlier question about whether the crawling attempts started 5 weeks ago...I can't fully remember but it has been going on for awhile.  She was not a great sleeper from the start.  We did sleep training at 3 months, but this was also the time that she was attempting to roll.  That led to two weeks of really rough nights, despite the ability to self-soothe.  Then at 3.5 months she rolled over and discovered the magic of tummy sleeping.  We had two weeks of good sleeps, with just 2 NFs and no misc wake-ups.  Then at 4 months she got sick, had her shots and then started trying the inchworm crawling.  We've had 5 weeks of minimum 4 wake ups a night and oftentimes more.

Hopefully these good naps are a sign that she may be turning a corner before I lose it....

[trimbler]

Hope so Sounds like you have a mobile one there That will play havoc with sleep, but once she's stopped feeling the need to practise at night, hopefully that will improve... Is she in a sleeping bag? It's good that she's so flexible with where she sleeps Keep us posted and we'll let you know if we think of anything else...

[Swannie]

Yes, she is in a sleeping bag.  It doesn't stop her from moving all over the place like a flash of light. No improvements last night.  I hope this gets better soon.  I'll give an update in a few days, and hopefully it will be a good one...

[trimbler]

Oh dear I hope so too...it will pass of course, eventually But do keep us posted, (((hugs)))

I'm sorry can't remember if we already discussed possible push in A times at 4mo? Will often manifest as short naps, but it's possible that if the naps are good then it could cause NWs if the A times are too short... Don't forget there's a large variation in A times between different LOs of the same age, mine were always on the short side but yours could need longer... But you know her best, what do you think?

[Swannie]

I'm back already....need advice regarding A times, as I think Trimbler may have been onto something.  Am wondering if nightwakings are from UT.  Here is the last two days.

Wed:
6:45: W/U
7:30 and 8:15: E
8:50-10:10: S
11:20: E
12:10-12:50: S
2:20: E
2:55-5:05!: S
5:20: E
6:30: E
7:10: E (I know, that was a lot of feeds in a short time)
7:25:S for BT
8:00-9:00: NW, Awake
11: NW
1:20: NF
6:50: W/U - A five hour stretch of sleep!!  the longest in the past 5 weeks.  I though we had turned a corner, but then.....

Thursday:
6:50: W/U
7:15 and 8:15: E
8:50-10:30: S
11 and 12: E
12:45-2:05: S
3:00: E
4:15-5:00: S
6: E
7: E
7:15: S for BT
8:30: NW, arm caught in rail of crib...
10-12: awake off and on for 2 hours, some fussing, chatting, playing
2:00: NF
4:00: NW, I sang from the bed and she went back to sleep
7:00 W/U

Now that she has sorted out her naps quite nicely, I'd like to tackle these silly nights!  Should I give her more A time in between naps, or before BT?  She doesn't seem very tired in the evening but I was trying to prevent OT, as I thought that was causing problems a few weeks ago...but that was when she was napping 30 minutes. 

She is now 5 months and 1 week old.  A big puzzle!

[trimbler]

Ooh it's difficult, isn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if she needed an A time stretch - how long has she been on ~3h? So I noticed that on the Wednesday she did roughly 2h each A time except longer before BT, even after the short midday nap, after which she managed a lovely long nap which didn't seem OT. I almost wonder if she treated her BT that day like a CN? Doesn't sound like it was an OT WU. Perhaps she was showing you that she needs just a little more A time in the day? Actually, adding up the A time that day, including the 1h nw between 8-9pm gives us 9h 20 mins, which sounds pretty reasonable to me, what do you think? So perhaps you gradually need to move about an hour's A time from the evening/night into the daytime? Then on the Thursday she had 8h 40mins A time during the day which maybe wasn't quite enough and then she had that horrible 2h nw (((hugs))) during which I expect she wound herself up and got a second wind etc and probably ended up OT which sent the rest of the night off?? Of course there's not much you can do about arms through crib bars

So...how to add more A time during the day! Do you think you could push the first A time just a little? She seemed to do well with 15mins extra on the second A time on Thursday, of course I don't know what happened since then but if you've held it at 2h 15mins then perhaps you could now push out the first one too? Bear in mind that many LOs (but not mine ) are on 3h A time and dropping down to 2 naps by 6mo, so 2h is on the short side for 5mo. I'd try 15mins on the first nap, hold it there for a few days and then try a 15min push later on in the day, depending on how she's coping and what the naps are doing. Think of trying to push her eventually to 2x 2h naps plus a CN of whatever length works, which will in time get shorter and disappear. How does that sound to you?

[Swannie]

Thanks so much for taking the time to review this and give it detailed consideration.  I really appreciate it.  I am just reading it now, after already putting her down for nap 1 after A of 2hr5min.  So, I will need to wait until tomorrow to implement your plan....although I can try to push her second A a bit today and see how it goes.  She has still been waking every two hours at night.  The good news is that despite these many NWs she is only taking one NF and it's fairly minimal (....gives me hope that when we sort out these NWs it will be fairly easily to eventually drop the final NF).

I will try pushing the A times and see how it goes.

Thanks!

[trimbler]

You're welcome, I can't promise to get it right of course, but I can hold your hand whilst we work it out together Just don't push too many A times all at once, take it slowly and see how she responds. And yes I wouldn't worry about that nf, she's still young

[Swannie]

Yesterday I gently pushed the A times.  She still had many NWs, but all were very short.  She keeps banging her little head on the rails and waking herself up every 1.5-2h, and each time she wanted to go back to sleep (ie no chatting or prolonged crying).  I am considering using the forbidden bumper pads if it doesn't get better by the end of the week after I gently tweak her schedule.

This morning I was able to push her first A time to 2h15.  I'll keep you posted.  Thanks again!

[trimbler]

Well done, sounds like heading in the right direction...?

[Swannie]

Unfortunately, we have another set-back: she's sick with a cold. The night was predictably rough and nap 1 was 30 minutes.  Hopefully she will get better quickly.