Extending naps - encouragement needed, am chained to the cot!

[Caroline83]

Hi there

I'd welcome some reassurance from anyone who has been successful in extending naps by helping through sleep cycle transition.

My little girl is nearly 6 months old - we developed a terrible habit of her napping on me - partly because anywhere else (she will nap in car seat/pushchair) she didn't go longer than the magic 30minutes! I have now committed to staying at home for naps for the time being and insisting they are all taken in her cot. I read an old post about helping through sleep cycle transition (usually why she wakes) and have been revisiting her as she comes out of first cycle and putting hands on her to help her through. My concern is, sometimes hands on are not enough and I have to pat/rock etc  - sometimes quite frequently throughout the whole 25-30min period! The post I originally read said that helping through the transitions would then mean she'd need less assistance eventually and be able to go through on her own - I don't see how that will happen if I'm helping her this much...?! I try to keep it to bare minimum and don't jump in straight away to see if she'll do herself, but just feels like it's getting worse if anything! Even when I feel she's over into deeper sleep I feel I have to sit by the cot just in case - which three times a day is becoming quite stressful and I don't want to do it forever! Any reassuring words/advice? Thanks

[Kellyjs]

Argh we battled short naps too hun, although hers were in her cot. But, I did manage to extend them eventually so I know (nearly) every trick in the book 

Would you mind posting your routine for me to take a peek at first? Ideally a real day such as today with timings, how she woke, what you did to get her back off etc. I like a story  . From the sounds of it you're still on 3 naps so that might have something to do with it, but I'll wait to hear from you xx

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[Caroline83]

Hiya, thanks - yesterday below - was a bit of a weird day as she is also having some night waking issues, that's another story and we're getting there with it.

Wake: 5.30am - not usually this early (usually 6-6.30), but couldn't get her back down
E - Breast feed: 6am
A - play with Daddy/help Daddy get ready for work (!)
S - 7.50 nap in cot, lasted 30mins(woke 8.20) didn't catch first stir quickly enough and aborted

E - Breast feed: 9am
A - play at home and Rhyme Time at library
S - nap in cot 11am - did last 1hr 40 (wake 12.40), after 25mins went back and stayed for 25/30 min - had to help with light sleep 3 or 4 times, eyes always open completely first time and have to put dummy in (she only uses this to settle to sleep), do light rock on one arm - on subsequent stirrings often can just do a light pat/ssssh or just a hand and ssssh. I have to stay for the full 25/30 mins without fail though.

E - Puréed fruit then breast feed:12.45
A - saw friends, baby massage class
S - nap on me (I cracked as fed up of wrestling her in cot!) 3.30pm, wake 4.15pm, had to pat a little

E - puréed veg mixed with baby rice then breast feed: 4.20
A - went for walk, quiet play at home, bath at 6pm
E - Last feed 6.30ish
S - asleep in cot 7.00

We were on two naps rather than three but she now wakes up v early for the day and would be difficult to get her to bedtime in 2 - I don't worry if the third one is quite short. The first nap is the most difficult to extend and often just ends up v short - the other thing that concerns me is the quality of naps if she's actually waking 2-3 times during one - not sure if the actual sleep is any good?! On the longer nap I try and get her through again but usually that becomes quite difficult at around 1 he 40 - but she might've had enough sleep then?
Thanks, any tips much appreciated

[Kellyjs]

It's amazing she can go 2hrs 40 after a short nap hun. That definitely makes me think we need to extend that first A. I would add 15mins on and hold it there for 3 days to see if the nap lengthens.

I would just see how long she naps hun without you going in, unless she cries of course then you go to her immediately. I do think with the extension of the As time you'll be needed less and less to help her through back to sleep.

I do think that 3rd nap needs to go soon, if it is apop'd after a day with bad naps for 15mins, that's not bad at all.. We need to do what we can to get through these transitions.

I think with extending that first A and possibly the second once she does take a longer first nap, you'll run out of time to fit in a CN anyway. BT may need to be brought forward for the time being, but it soon pushes out again.

I would also check for teething too just to make sure wrt the NW's. Do keep me posted ok? Xx

[Caroline83]

Great thanks - do I still extend first A even if she's showing all signs of being ready to go down - don't want to miss it?!

With regard to seeing how long she naps without any help - if this then ends up being super short and she has three 25 min naps, is she not going to be over tired cos she hasn't had enough day sleep?

Agree with poss teething for NW - she also seems to have some bad wind and tummy ache - could be connected to starting solids.xx

[Kellyjs]

Yes! Just try and do something low key if you can. Remember tired cues can be for a variety of reasons now. We need to fix this short napping for you.

She's just started solids you say? How much is she having? Have you noticed a reduction in her milk intake at all? Hmmm I notice you're doing dinner, perhaps try breakfast instead and leave out dinner for a while. That could be the cause of her disturbed nights atm. We didn't start with dinner until DD was 8mo I think. Milk is so much more important at this age, the calories are higher in milk and can sustain them longer.
I would also bf before solids hun. That's for all the meals. Perhaps do your morning bf, solids an hour later? Xx

[Kellyjs]

How things going now hun? Xx

[Caroline83]

Hiya,

Not much change I'm afraid - have tried extending wake time and leaving her to see how long she will go - she's really easy to put down for the nap - but however long she's been awake she will sleep for 25-30 mins - the first time she stirs (end of cycle), she will toss and turn and then wake up. If I do then intervene I will have to stay for about 30mins, as she will fully awake about 3 times.

Any other ideas? She just can't seem to get past this first stage!

Took on board what you said about solids and have stuck to breakfast and lunch with breast feeds first. Night waking btw is worse than ever at the mo, sometimes every hour or so...!x

[creations]

I feel I have to sit by the cot just in case - which three times a day is becoming quite stressful and I don't want to do it forever!

Hi there.
I just wanted to suggest working on one nap per day which can feel a whole lot better for you.  I generally go for the first nap to work on so I'd do a longer A time and then the W2S where you go in at 25 mins and begin the transition help to get a good nap.  The W2S shouldn't go on for ever, part of it is helping her transition so she gets a better sleep but part of it is showing and teaching her to take a longer nap.  A LO can form a habit of fully waking when they reach the end of a sleep cycle, and the W2S is a training method to get her into a different habit.
The W2S is usually three days and then on the fourth you hold off to see how long the nap lasts, if its short you do another three days W2S.
I think you need a much longer first A time to get her good and tired so that she has the best chance of transitioning with help then without help.  With such short, 30 min naps, I wouldn't be afraid of OT because the naps can't really get much worse can they?  I mean there is a slight chance of OT causing a WU at 10 mins but I'd take that chance as OT is usually a better bet for resettling.

[Caroline83]

Okay, I'll try that, thanks. I can stretch her first A time to 2 h 40 or 50, or even 3 hours if we're doing stuff. She's definitely ready for a nap when I put her down. With W2S - should I be helping with the transition before it starts almost, so lightly waking her/then helping before she would naturally start to stir? Will try starting today with first nap and do the 3 days.

[creations]

This link helps to describe the W2S and the different options
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Helpful to read all of it but particularly the naps option 1
For your LO you need to go in earlier than the FAQ says as she seems to be waking at 30min  which is why I recommend going in at 25 mins (or even at 20 mins, I know it cuts your Y time down but if this works it's well worth it).  The option 1 method is not a disturbance of the sleep it is help transitioning.  you can begin before she rouses or wait until the very first rouse but I do mean the very first, have your hand right there waiting, even on her lightly - this method is not about responding to cries or call outs, it is a method to use long before that.
The FAQ says to use shush/pat I would use your adapted rocking method.  I used to put my hand on DS's nappy area and move my arm/hand in a rocking motion as he didn't like patting.  The rocking can be weaning like patting is by reducing so don't worry about props, it's also far better to be rocking in the cot than in arms, she learns to transition whilst feeling the weight of her body on the mattress which is different to the weightless feeling of being held in arms.

As with any method you have to expect to put in some work and only do it if you feel comfortable with the approach.  If you can get that first nap sorted you can have a break of a few days before tackling nap 2 if you want

[Caroline83]

Great thanks - tried with first nap today and had to put hand on and do (only very light) rock about 3 times - she then slept for another half an hour on her own so 90 mins in total. Do I then assume she's awake because she's ready to wake up or try for another extension? Obv 90mins big improvement! Second nap 20mins as I didn't go in... Will keep trying for 3 days for first nap - thanks both for all the advice.

My original reason for posting was naps - however we are having horrendous nights at the mo. We starting working on these about a month ago - she'd always been fed to sleep and slept for up to about 10 hours straight (then quick feed and another couple of hours) so never a problem. When she started waking more frequently and I didn't want to feed her each time and transfer, we started working on going down more awake and settling (bit of patting, rocking, hands pressure, sometimes dummy to calm) in cot - we are still working on this but it has got a lot quicker to settle her, both my husband and I can now do it, and she is hopefully eventually going to be able to do it without support. Things were getting much better too - she was going a good stretch at the beginning of the night, up to 6/7 hours, then we were working on the more fragmented stretches after that.

However, last 5 nights or so she has literally been waking up after 45mins to an hour - all night! Last night we got a 3 hr stint from 10 til 1, but sometimes that doesn't happen. We put her down at 6.50 tonight - already been in to resettle - and we do leave her to see if she'll back herself. It's like something is waking her - and as we're still working on it, she needs our help - but again, it feels like it's getting worse and will be like this forever! Have tried teething pain relief if she's esp distressed in case it's that. Should I post this on NW on different board?!
Taking her to docs tmrw too in case any underlying issues. Any thoughts?xx

[creations]

Maybe a growth spurt? although 5 nights sounds a bit on the long side for that.
Teeth, have you tried meds before BT rather than waiting for her to wake?
Could be a developmental leap, mine always slept badly when he was having a developmental leap (rather than growing in weight/length it seems to be pure brain work) and then he'd suddenly be able to do something new and the sleep would settle again.  Is she learning to roll or sit perhaps?  New foods she could be dreaming of? Gas?

[Kellyjs]

I too would vote for teeth or developmental issues. I would keep to the same thread if you don't mind hun, as I'll probably only end up posting on your new thread and we'll have two going 

Amazing news about the nap, that's a very decent length of a nap and a huge improvement, go you! It will get better, I promise. Especially now as creations is here.. When I mentioned in my first post I'd battled with short naps, it was creations that helped me with that all those many moons ago

[Caroline83]

Thanks so much both of you - docs was fine so yep, have to think teething and hope gets better. She learnt to roll both ways about a month ago, it did cause wakes at the time but think that's passed now. Last night was much better and we'd given med/teething gel before bed - will keep you posted with nights after we've tried with that for a bit longer.

Interesting day naps wise - Wake time much longer than normal as were out and had docs appt so had to be awake. Had decided not to worry too much about nap, thought she'd have half an hour in pram and I could work on a long one in cot later. However, she had an hour and 20mins! She did stir twice and opened her eyes - both times I pushed the pram v briefly and she went back. The last stretch was a solid 50mins without anything from me - and we were stationary (enjoying a lovely brekkie with my hubby!). So longer wake time seems like good answer. So today looked something like this:

Wake 5am (morning a bit odd, woke v early and tried to resettle for ages, eventually gave up!)
E - breast feed 6 am
A
S - 6.45 - 7.35 (again, saw this as almost an extension of the night!)

A - included solids about 8 am
E - breast feed 9am
A
S - 11am - 12.20

E - breast feed 12.20
A - including solids at about 1.40
S - 3.20 - 3.55 (really hard time extending and had to abort!)

E - breast feed 4pm
A
E - small breast feed 6pm
A - including bath time etc
S - asleep I imagine 7ish

So - a few questions:
1) how much day sleep I am trying to go for? I've read 3-4 hrs, she never gets close to 4, perhaps 2.5 to 3 on a good day - I don't want to stretch too far esp on aft nap as then will interfere with BT...
2) BT - if the aft nap gets longer on a day like today (eg if she's had an hour  ish she'd have woken 4.30ish), what kind of time can I realistically aim for her to be asleep - she's usually much more settled if she is asleep as close to 7pm as poss, would this work with poss 4.30 end of nap?
3) in the transition help - should it be constant - (eg keep hands on lightly throughout light sleep) or remove hands when settled, ready to see if needed again...

 

 

[Kellyjs]

This looks like amazing progress hun. Hope you enjoyed your breakfast 

Day sleep wise it really does depend on the LO. I reckon 4hrs would be unrealistic except for those LO's with HSN. Before the  last CN goes it can be around 2 x 1.5hr naps and 1x 45mins nap. But this is at around 4-5mo. Once the nap has gone some do a slightly longer nap of 2hrs and 1x 1.5hrs. Others are happy on 2x 1.5hrs etc etc do you see where I'm going with this? Also some like 12hrs ONS, some 11.

So we just need to find what fits your LO. Don't worry too much about the recommended hours needed as they can vary so much. We watch our LO's and try and figure out their needs. For yours the short napping was due to a need to increase the A time and looking to drop the CN soon ish. You'll just run out of hours in the day to fit one in soon as the A times increase in order to achieve a decent BT. All part of the transition. Have a look at that 3-2 transiiton link I posted before, it explains it better.

Yes, 7pm could work with a 4.30pm wu time from nap. It might even need to be a tad earlier, time will tell. Some bubbas like mine like a shorter. A to BT. We just watch out for the signs like OT NW's in the early part of the night to find the right time for the last nap to end and BT to be.

I would try and use your hands as little as possible if you can. So slowly reduce the time your hand is on her through the transition and see if you can back out. If she is an independent sleeper anyway she might not need you at all to help her through it. I used to just nudge DD a little and get out of there! Xx

[creations]

I would try and use your hands as little as possible if you can. So slowly reduce the time your hand is on her through the transition and see if you can back out.

I'm going to contradict this just ever so slightly (sorry Kelly)
Part of the W2S is to help her transition if she's finding it tricky, the other part is to 'tell' her it is still time to sleep to teach her the habit of sleeping longer.
if I can use an example of shush/pat or PUPD sleep training, if a LO habitually short naps it may be recommended to keep them in their room, in the dark, telling them it is sleep time (by telling I mean shush/pat, PUPD or using actual words) right up to the time their nap *should end* even though this means they are awake 45 mins.  It is the parent's way to 'teach' or 'tell' LO that this is time for sleep because Mummy knows best.  Whilst I'm not suggesting your start PUPD or to keep her in a dark room for another 30-45 mins after she wakes, what I'm saying is that part of the W2S method is *teaching* and teaching need not be a hands off approach or light touch approach.
So whilst I wouldn't continue with W2S every single day (do 3 days on 1 day off) I also wouldn't worry about how much help you give, it is help and it is giving her a message, "go to sleep" so in this sense it is fine to stay and 'tell' her throughout the transition. Do as much as necessary (the FAQ says pat right through to deep sleep which is 20 mins, I doubt you'd need this much in your case but what I'm saying is don't be afraid of it)
Results may be seen right away (after 3 days) or may take a few rounds.  After a few rounds you may well just stop all together and never do another W2S.  If after a few rounds she is still waking and can only sleep longer with help I'd prob look at tweaking the routine a little.

I noticed you said you planned to work on nap 2. If it's your plan to work on both naps at once that's fine but just a reminder if you are going to W2S to extend one nap per day it needs to be the same nap each day to build that habit.

[Kellyjs]

Please do contradict me creations  . No problem at all, I just know what worked for mine... You've been advising far longer than me!

I do echo what creations said too.. Working on one nap is far less stressful than working on two! Let us know how it goes xx

[creations]

 

[Caroline83]

My fault, sorry - I'm not trying to work on both naps, just the morning one - I got confused and didn't quite take in had to be same one (although that makes perfect sense!) - tried on second yesterday as we were at home, rather than out in the morning.

Will try to stay at home - if unavoidable like yest - can the nap still be 'worked on' out in pushchair for example? So yest I had to help transition twice by pushing a little - my thinking is this is still teaching her to stay asleep by not getting her out etc? Or does it absolutely have to be in cot? If it has to be in cot, do I count yest as one of the 3 days or not?

On the fourth day when I leave her to see how she gets on, what happens if the nap is short, because the others on the day aren't being addressed yet, do I just let a series of short ones happen so at least she gets some sleep?

So today we're already on nap 1 as were up v early, currently by cot! I tried to keep A time to 3.5 hrs like yest but had to feed at 3hrs (otherwise too much time would've gone if she then had long nap and no feed). Anyway, she practically fell asleep feeding and was hard to wake her fully - I didn't let her fall asleep sucking (we do Pantley's removal) and took her upstairs and settled her in cot - she did kind of wake when I was putting her in. Is this ok or should I try not to feed so close to a nap? Not really sure how to avoid with extension of A time as they clash a little now...

Okay - may as well do nights too if that's alright?! Last night was better - looked like this:
Bed 7pm
V brief wake 7.40, asleep again by 7.45
Wake 2am (this one was tricky to get her back to sleep and both me and hubby had to do a stint, back to sleep 2.50 - feed also in this time)
Wake 3.50 - back by 3.55
Wake 5.15 - back by 5.30
Wake and up at 5.55

Any advice here or keep plugging away - really confusing that she can do a 6 hour stretch and then all these tiny stretches in second half of night?
Also - the early wake after 40mins, could that be solved by BT being slightly earlier - so yest A to BT was 3h 5 - shall I try shorter? Got her up at 5.55 as seemed silly to keep trying when she'd only managed 25mins since the last attempt!

I'm so appreciative of all your help - I so want to get this right and she's my first baby so possibly I've been making a few mistakes along the way... On the plus side, I've not had to do anything since first stir and that was 20mins ago, so looks like help could well be reducing!

[creations]

Short on time so forgive me for the brief response, I'll just try to answer a few of the questions.

Will try to stay at home - if unavoidable like yest - can the nap still be 'worked on' out in pushchair for example?

Do what you need to do when you have unavoidable trips out. I wouldn't count it as one of the 3 days but it's fine to still help her the way you did.

On the fourth day when I leave her to see how she gets on, what happens if the nap is short, because the others on the day aren't being addressed yet, do I just let a series of short ones happen so at least she gets some sleep?

If she short naps because you haven't done the W2S you can still try to resettle her. Stopping for a day is the see what happens, once you've seen what happens go ahead and try to help her, might be harder as she is likely more awake by then. It's still ok to go in the room, just don't automatically put hands on the help on that day, observe instead (this avoids you getting into a habit of always helping, forming a prop and continuing to be chained to the cot)
The rest of the day you can still help her if you like, up to you.  As you were feeling so tired and chained to the cot my suggestion was to give yourself a break or a reduced work load by focusing on one nap.  It doesn't mean you cannot help her the rest of the day but don't put yourself through the mill and if you are not consistent with the other naps then you also can't expect her to be. If you W2S on nap 2 for a day here and there there is no problem with that other than you might continue to be frustrated by lack of progress and you are not 'teaching' her consistently.  For some mums it is preferable to work on nap 1 then just accept short naps rest of day.

I didn't let her fall asleep sucking (we do Pantley's removal) and took her upstairs and settled her in cot - she did kind of wake when I was putting her in. Is this ok or should I try not to feed so close to a nap? Not really sure how to avoid with extension of A time as they clash a little now...

Clashing does happen. You have to do what you can to work feeds around naps just as you have done by feeding before nap.  Do as you did, try for a little A, even a minute, if not possible just stir her, make her know she is being put down (the opposite of being super quiet and gentle and tip toes into her room). I used to say to mine (quite loudly!) "I am putting you in your bed now so that you can sleep properly, call if you need me".  They still hear in their sleep. Mine often opened his eyes for a second to smile at me then go to sleep.

Sorry didn't read the nights section. Must dash now, just wanted to give the naps info so you know what to do today. x

[Caroline83]

Thanks - yeah, I agree that one nap at a time will be more manageable - I also feel like I can go out and do something, which is also nice for her obv. After posting before - I wrote this - first nap update:

Asleep 8.58 - first stir/transition 9.21 - then she stayed asleep on her own for about 30mins. Then she stirred/had to be helped again at 10am and 10.07 - usually this is 'safe' territory - I hadn't left her as was faffing on my phone so managed to salvage it!

Usually it looks something like:
Sleeps for 20mins
Have to be on hand to help for about 30mins
After 30mins usually back in deep sleep so I leave her to see how long she'll go

It feels like for this one she didn't have a very long deep sleep period at all?! Or was she maybe ready to wake at 10am?

Thoughts? No rush to reply - I'm only writing all this as I'm sitting next to the cot with not a huge amount to do! 

[creations]

What's your first A time now?

[Caroline83]

I wanted to make it as close to 3 and a half hours as poss as that seemed to work well the other day accidentally - but yesterday it was 3 hours due to the sleepy feeding... Need to set it as something really - what do you think I should try?

[Caroline83]

This morning's A was 3 hrs - husband was in charge and said she was really grizzly from about 2 hr 50 and fell asleep on 3hrs. He only had to do a couple of light holds in the transitioning - total nap 1 hr 20. Do you think stick with 3 hr A time for now?

[creations]

Yes looks like 3hrs would be a good idea for now and just see how it goes over the coming days.

[Caroline83]

Is the A to second nap sometimes shorter - went down at 2h 40, think it even could've been a bit before as it was a slight battle.. I'll keep a track and let you know in a few days how it's going - never stuck that rigidly to the times before but it seems like tweaking some/having more understanding of them might solve quite a few issues here! Thanks x

[creations]

The second A can sometimes be shorter than the first, yes.  From memory I think you had a 2hr 40 second A so if it is producing a good nap then I'd just stick with that.

[Caroline83]

Hiya

We're still working through W2S on 3 days on, one off - will try a few cycles and then give you an update soon. Just wanted to ask advice/thoughts in the meantime though on a couple of things.

Nights are getting worse if anything - last night she was up probably about 8 or 9 times - including about 4 between 6.45 (BT) and 11pm. Each time we settle her back to sleep in her cot - I usually feed her once during the night, I don't know if she needs it, but if she wakes up really soon after being resettled, I think perhaps she's hungry and can't stay asleep?! We're trying teething gel and powder, and have been giving nurofen before bed - we didn't do that last night as it hasn't been making a difference and I feel like we're giving her meds every night as a matter of course. I'm not even sure she's teething! Gave her some calpol last night on one of the wakings but again, doesn't make a difference. She's had a bit of a cold, could it be that?

Anyway, any advice at all on the night wakings would be much appreciated. She is struggling now to get to 3hrs first A time the next day if she's had a bad night - this morning she fell asleep b feeding on 2h30... Should I still try for 3 hrs ordinarily?

I also don't know if BT is right - we're ending up with about 3h 10 A time before she goes to sleep - if we try any earlier she's wide awake, and naturally settles well at about 3h/3h 10. However, almost without fail she will wake (crying) 40min to an hr after going down - sometimes then again an hr or so after that and so on...

Sorry for all the long questions - I just want to see if there are any answers/things to try or just carry on and hope it will all get better! Thanks in advance for any help x

[Kellyjs]

It does sound like that last A to BT is too long hun. Sounds very typical of OT NW's which is the cause of too long an A before BT. I know you said she settles well at that time, but I wonder if she has a bit of second wind after the 2.5hrs mark? Can you try an earlier BT, reduced A time for a day or so and let us know if it gets any better?

Oh and colds can definitely cause NW's. LO's use their nose to breathe, so when blocked it really disturbs their sleep. I still use a vaporub on DD's chest and feet when she's got a cold and it works well. Not sure why the feet work, but someone told me it once and it made a few bad nights a lot better! Xx

[creations]

if we try any earlier she's wide awake, and naturally settles well at about 3h/3h 10.

I agree with Kelly about last A time.
BT routine...are you doing bath? stories? anything that my be too stimulating? anything that is encouraging her to keep going on that second wind?
It could be that she needs a very short last A time.