Extending naps - encouragement needed, am chained to the cot!

[Kellyjs]

This looks like amazing progress hun. Hope you enjoyed your breakfast 

Day sleep wise it really does depend on the LO. I reckon 4hrs would be unrealistic except for those LO's with HSN. Before the  last CN goes it can be around 2 x 1.5hr naps and 1x 45mins nap. But this is at around 4-5mo. Once the nap has gone some do a slightly longer nap of 2hrs and 1x 1.5hrs. Others are happy on 2x 1.5hrs etc etc do you see where I'm going with this? Also some like 12hrs ONS, some 11.

So we just need to find what fits your LO. Don't worry too much about the recommended hours needed as they can vary so much. We watch our LO's and try and figure out their needs. For yours the short napping was due to a need to increase the A time and looking to drop the CN soon ish. You'll just run out of hours in the day to fit one in soon as the A times increase in order to achieve a decent BT. All part of the transition. Have a look at that 3-2 transiiton link I posted before, it explains it better.

Yes, 7pm could work with a 4.30pm wu time from nap. It might even need to be a tad earlier, time will tell. Some bubbas like mine like a shorter. A to BT. We just watch out for the signs like OT NW's in the early part of the night to find the right time for the last nap to end and BT to be.

I would try and use your hands as little as possible if you can. So slowly reduce the time your hand is on her through the transition and see if you can back out. If she is an independent sleeper anyway she might not need you at all to help her through it. I used to just nudge DD a little and get out of there! Xx

[creations]

I would try and use your hands as little as possible if you can. So slowly reduce the time your hand is on her through the transition and see if you can back out.

I'm going to contradict this just ever so slightly (sorry Kelly)
Part of the W2S is to help her transition if she's finding it tricky, the other part is to 'tell' her it is still time to sleep to teach her the habit of sleeping longer.
if I can use an example of shush/pat or PUPD sleep training, if a LO habitually short naps it may be recommended to keep them in their room, in the dark, telling them it is sleep time (by telling I mean shush/pat, PUPD or using actual words) right up to the time their nap *should end* even though this means they are awake 45 mins.  It is the parent's way to 'teach' or 'tell' LO that this is time for sleep because Mummy knows best.  Whilst I'm not suggesting your start PUPD or to keep her in a dark room for another 30-45 mins after she wakes, what I'm saying is that part of the W2S method is *teaching* and teaching need not be a hands off approach or light touch approach.
So whilst I wouldn't continue with W2S every single day (do 3 days on 1 day off) I also wouldn't worry about how much help you give, it is help and it is giving her a message, "go to sleep" so in this sense it is fine to stay and 'tell' her throughout the transition. Do as much as necessary (the FAQ says pat right through to deep sleep which is 20 mins, I doubt you'd need this much in your case but what I'm saying is don't be afraid of it)
Results may be seen right away (after 3 days) or may take a few rounds.  After a few rounds you may well just stop all together and never do another W2S.  If after a few rounds she is still waking and can only sleep longer with help I'd prob look at tweaking the routine a little.

I noticed you said you planned to work on nap 2. If it's your plan to work on both naps at once that's fine but just a reminder if you are going to W2S to extend one nap per day it needs to be the same nap each day to build that habit.

[Kellyjs]

Please do contradict me creations  . No problem at all, I just know what worked for mine... You've been advising far longer than me!

I do echo what creations said too.. Working on one nap is far less stressful than working on two! Let us know how it goes xx

[creations]

 

[Caroline83]

My fault, sorry - I'm not trying to work on both naps, just the morning one - I got confused and didn't quite take in had to be same one (although that makes perfect sense!) - tried on second yesterday as we were at home, rather than out in the morning.

Will try to stay at home - if unavoidable like yest - can the nap still be 'worked on' out in pushchair for example? So yest I had to help transition twice by pushing a little - my thinking is this is still teaching her to stay asleep by not getting her out etc? Or does it absolutely have to be in cot? If it has to be in cot, do I count yest as one of the 3 days or not?

On the fourth day when I leave her to see how she gets on, what happens if the nap is short, because the others on the day aren't being addressed yet, do I just let a series of short ones happen so at least she gets some sleep?

So today we're already on nap 1 as were up v early, currently by cot! I tried to keep A time to 3.5 hrs like yest but had to feed at 3hrs (otherwise too much time would've gone if she then had long nap and no feed). Anyway, she practically fell asleep feeding and was hard to wake her fully - I didn't let her fall asleep sucking (we do Pantley's removal) and took her upstairs and settled her in cot - she did kind of wake when I was putting her in. Is this ok or should I try not to feed so close to a nap? Not really sure how to avoid with extension of A time as they clash a little now...

Okay - may as well do nights too if that's alright?! Last night was better - looked like this:
Bed 7pm
V brief wake 7.40, asleep again by 7.45
Wake 2am (this one was tricky to get her back to sleep and both me and hubby had to do a stint, back to sleep 2.50 - feed also in this time)
Wake 3.50 - back by 3.55
Wake 5.15 - back by 5.30
Wake and up at 5.55

Any advice here or keep plugging away - really confusing that she can do a 6 hour stretch and then all these tiny stretches in second half of night?
Also - the early wake after 40mins, could that be solved by BT being slightly earlier - so yest A to BT was 3h 5 - shall I try shorter? Got her up at 5.55 as seemed silly to keep trying when she'd only managed 25mins since the last attempt!

I'm so appreciative of all your help - I so want to get this right and she's my first baby so possibly I've been making a few mistakes along the way... On the plus side, I've not had to do anything since first stir and that was 20mins ago, so looks like help could well be reducing!

[creations]

Short on time so forgive me for the brief response, I'll just try to answer a few of the questions.

Will try to stay at home - if unavoidable like yest - can the nap still be 'worked on' out in pushchair for example?

Do what you need to do when you have unavoidable trips out. I wouldn't count it as one of the 3 days but it's fine to still help her the way you did.

On the fourth day when I leave her to see how she gets on, what happens if the nap is short, because the others on the day aren't being addressed yet, do I just let a series of short ones happen so at least she gets some sleep?

If she short naps because you haven't done the W2S you can still try to resettle her. Stopping for a day is the see what happens, once you've seen what happens go ahead and try to help her, might be harder as she is likely more awake by then. It's still ok to go in the room, just don't automatically put hands on the help on that day, observe instead (this avoids you getting into a habit of always helping, forming a prop and continuing to be chained to the cot)
The rest of the day you can still help her if you like, up to you.  As you were feeling so tired and chained to the cot my suggestion was to give yourself a break or a reduced work load by focusing on one nap.  It doesn't mean you cannot help her the rest of the day but don't put yourself through the mill and if you are not consistent with the other naps then you also can't expect her to be. If you W2S on nap 2 for a day here and there there is no problem with that other than you might continue to be frustrated by lack of progress and you are not 'teaching' her consistently.  For some mums it is preferable to work on nap 1 then just accept short naps rest of day.

I didn't let her fall asleep sucking (we do Pantley's removal) and took her upstairs and settled her in cot - she did kind of wake when I was putting her in. Is this ok or should I try not to feed so close to a nap? Not really sure how to avoid with extension of A time as they clash a little now...

Clashing does happen. You have to do what you can to work feeds around naps just as you have done by feeding before nap.  Do as you did, try for a little A, even a minute, if not possible just stir her, make her know she is being put down (the opposite of being super quiet and gentle and tip toes into her room). I used to say to mine (quite loudly!) "I am putting you in your bed now so that you can sleep properly, call if you need me".  They still hear in their sleep. Mine often opened his eyes for a second to smile at me then go to sleep.

Sorry didn't read the nights section. Must dash now, just wanted to give the naps info so you know what to do today. x

[Caroline83]

Thanks - yeah, I agree that one nap at a time will be more manageable - I also feel like I can go out and do something, which is also nice for her obv. After posting before - I wrote this - first nap update:

Asleep 8.58 - first stir/transition 9.21 - then she stayed asleep on her own for about 30mins. Then she stirred/had to be helped again at 10am and 10.07 - usually this is 'safe' territory - I hadn't left her as was faffing on my phone so managed to salvage it!

Usually it looks something like:
Sleeps for 20mins
Have to be on hand to help for about 30mins
After 30mins usually back in deep sleep so I leave her to see how long she'll go

It feels like for this one she didn't have a very long deep sleep period at all?! Or was she maybe ready to wake at 10am?

Thoughts? No rush to reply - I'm only writing all this as I'm sitting next to the cot with not a huge amount to do! 

[creations]

What's your first A time now?

[Caroline83]

I wanted to make it as close to 3 and a half hours as poss as that seemed to work well the other day accidentally - but yesterday it was 3 hours due to the sleepy feeding... Need to set it as something really - what do you think I should try?

[Caroline83]

This morning's A was 3 hrs - husband was in charge and said she was really grizzly from about 2 hr 50 and fell asleep on 3hrs. He only had to do a couple of light holds in the transitioning - total nap 1 hr 20. Do you think stick with 3 hr A time for now?

[creations]

Yes looks like 3hrs would be a good idea for now and just see how it goes over the coming days.

[Caroline83]

Is the A to second nap sometimes shorter - went down at 2h 40, think it even could've been a bit before as it was a slight battle.. I'll keep a track and let you know in a few days how it's going - never stuck that rigidly to the times before but it seems like tweaking some/having more understanding of them might solve quite a few issues here! Thanks x

[creations]

The second A can sometimes be shorter than the first, yes.  From memory I think you had a 2hr 40 second A so if it is producing a good nap then I'd just stick with that.

[Caroline83]

Hiya

We're still working through W2S on 3 days on, one off - will try a few cycles and then give you an update soon. Just wanted to ask advice/thoughts in the meantime though on a couple of things.

Nights are getting worse if anything - last night she was up probably about 8 or 9 times - including about 4 between 6.45 (BT) and 11pm. Each time we settle her back to sleep in her cot - I usually feed her once during the night, I don't know if she needs it, but if she wakes up really soon after being resettled, I think perhaps she's hungry and can't stay asleep?! We're trying teething gel and powder, and have been giving nurofen before bed - we didn't do that last night as it hasn't been making a difference and I feel like we're giving her meds every night as a matter of course. I'm not even sure she's teething! Gave her some calpol last night on one of the wakings but again, doesn't make a difference. She's had a bit of a cold, could it be that?

Anyway, any advice at all on the night wakings would be much appreciated. She is struggling now to get to 3hrs first A time the next day if she's had a bad night - this morning she fell asleep b feeding on 2h30... Should I still try for 3 hrs ordinarily?

I also don't know if BT is right - we're ending up with about 3h 10 A time before she goes to sleep - if we try any earlier she's wide awake, and naturally settles well at about 3h/3h 10. However, almost without fail she will wake (crying) 40min to an hr after going down - sometimes then again an hr or so after that and so on...

Sorry for all the long questions - I just want to see if there are any answers/things to try or just carry on and hope it will all get better! Thanks in advance for any help x

[Kellyjs]

It does sound like that last A to BT is too long hun. Sounds very typical of OT NW's which is the cause of too long an A before BT. I know you said she settles well at that time, but I wonder if she has a bit of second wind after the 2.5hrs mark? Can you try an earlier BT, reduced A time for a day or so and let us know if it gets any better?

Oh and colds can definitely cause NW's. LO's use their nose to breathe, so when blocked it really disturbs their sleep. I still use a vaporub on DD's chest and feet when she's got a cold and it works well. Not sure why the feet work, but someone told me it once and it made a few bad nights a lot better! Xx