Can you help me gently sleep train?

[4isstillnighttime]

Hi, I've got I think 3 threads going about my poor little baby. I think it's desperation!! But I think I have to start sleep training him. I was hoping not to because when I did it with my toddlers (with shhh pat) I found it incredibly traumatic and I don't think I could cope with that again. The thing is....this baby almost never cries, he is incredibly content....and because of that (and I think because screaming babies gives me actual flash backs to my PND after the twins) I just cannot cope with him crying. A bit if a whinge is fine, but not the whole thing. I think I would almost rather not do it at all and BF a hundred times a night. And I have twin toddlers so am keen not to disrupt their (dreadful!) sleep any more than I have to. And it is all worse because he will only sporadically take a dummy so the crying is worse.

Currently he has most naps in the sling. I try for one a day in the cot. Our wind down routine is nappy change, sleeping bag, dummy, music on. I can't bear PUPD as I find it really unsettling and baby seems to get even more wound up with shh pat, firm hand, anything  like that. The only thing that works is stroking his forehead, and even that only works sometimes. I often (usually!) cave and either feed him to sleep or pop him in the carrier.

At bedtime even if he falls asleep feeding I wake him up before I put him down. He either settles himself and sometimes he needs a dummy. At night I aim to feed every 3 hours but I am tired and run down and often I fall asleep feeding him so then I wake up an hour later but don't know where we are. If I stay awake and hold it together he goes down again quite easily but wakes v early.

I think he is getting OT as he is a nosy Parker and is sleeping less well in the sling. He is poorly at the moment but I need a strategy and, if I'm honest, some hand holding. I can feel the black wings of despair beating over my shoulder.....

Thank you!

[becj86]

Happy to help - can you run through the basics - age, temperament, current routine, medical conditions, current night wakings?

[4isstillnighttime]

Oh thank you so much!! Am totally at the end of my tether!

He is 20 weeks. Has a cold and a rash at the moment, and had a tongue tie divided at birth. Still has a lip tie but feeds well, doesn't really (in general) feed for comfort and he isn't mad keen on his dummy.

His temperament is probably Angel with a bit of textbook. He is a delight and a doll. But his sleep is rotten!! I have had to do loads of AP as I have twins as well and am on my own a lot of the time. So most of his naps have been in my sling. He also has to fit in around them a bit.

Our EASY is all over the place but yesterday....

WU 5:30 (twin 1 woke him)
Napped 7:30-8:15 in his cot
Napped 10:05- 12 in the sling
Napped 2:15-3 in his cot then I spent 45 mins trying to resettle him. His eyes were closed the whole time but he would seem to settle then cry again. Not sure really if he was awake or asleep!
Tried for a CN at 5, 5:30 and 6 then gave up and put him to bed at 7.
NW 10, 12, 2, 4. I fell asleep feeding him at 4 and when I woke at 5 he was awake but don't know how long for.

To go to sleep in his cot I change his nappy, turn the lights off, put him in a sleeping bag, cuddle a bit then put him down. I give him his dummy (he usually takes it out to play with!), kiss him, say goodnight and walk out. V occasionally he will go to sleep then. If he cries (upset cry) I go back in, put dummy back and kind of jiggle him in his cot a bit while I shhhhh. Usually works quite well. At night though ONLY BF will do. I often fall asleep feeding him, wake up in the chair with him asleep on my lap, pop him back in his cot and he wakes up either straight away or as soon as o have gone back to sleep.

He isn't swaddled, and he has a lovey but isn't particularly interested in it. He will only use a dummy when he is really sleepy - think it interferes with his smiling and chatting and flirting too much!!

Thanks again!!

[becj86]

Ok, so at 20 weeks, his A time should be more like 2:30 or so. He's giving an UT nap from 2:15 A time off a 2hr nap so I'd increase that and that should help with the early morning waking. Once you know he's got the right A time, we can see if the short naps in the cot are a matter for ST. I don't necessarily think so but given he went nearly 2hr off a 45min nap, he's definitely needing more A time before you can think of ST.

Obviously you're able to be flexible with his day, so that's great. I'd say where you can, just go with the flow and try to keep A times up around 2.5hr. Naps in the sling are fine while you're getting those A times sorted - ST is much easier when you have a sold routine and you have his body clock on your side

NWs I would hope should settle once the day routine falls into place. Often that will happen, so how about increasing those A times and seeing how he's going in 2-3 days?

[4isstillnighttime]

Brilliant. I could kiss you!!

I'll give it a shot and report back at the weekend.

[4isstillnighttime]

Can I ask a stupid question....if I get a 30 min OT nap and can't resettle, what do I do then? Let him nap again as soon as he is ready or wait a decent interval? Only just managed to get him to 2h A after an OT first nap, then he did a second one (although I managed to resettle him) and then a third!!

Thanks!!

[becj86]

Yep, so when aiming for 2:30, I'd go to 1:45-2hr A time off a 30min nap. Yes, you do need to reduce it a bit but its much easier to resettle OT than UT naps.

[4isstillnighttime]

Ok, perfect, thank you!! He has been poorly so it's all a bit up in the air, has managed some 2:30 reasonably well and can now get to 2:20 pretty easily. We are having long, chatty NW though and his day is still starting horribly early 

Will do a couple of days EASY and post them. Before he was ill I had 2 days logged:

WU 5
S 6:50 -7:30
S 9:30 - 10:45
S 1:45 - 3
BT 6:15
NW 10, 1, 3

WU 4:50
S 7:00 - 7:45
S 10:00 - 10:05, resettle 10:45-12:30
S 2:45 - 3:30
S 5:30 - 6
BT 7:30
NW 10, 1, 3-4:30
WU 5:30

[becj86]

We are having long, chatty NW though and his day is still starting horribly early 

^ This is a symptom of those A times not being long enough.

WU 5S 6:50 -7:30

WU 4:50S 7:00 - 7:45

Are you getting him up at 5? If so, I'd go with first nap not before 7:30 or you're just feeding that EW cycle. If you push a little too far, the worst that can happen is a couple of OT naps before he catches up with needing that A time anyway. He'll become much more OT from timid pushing of A time when he's clearly UT because he's never getting that restorative sleep.

[4isstillnighttime]

Ok, here is yesterday's...

WU 5:30
S 8-8:45
S 10-10:45 (baby sensory at 10:45, fell asleep on the walk there and I let him as vvvv expensive and want him to participate
S 1:15-3 (sling)
S 5:45-6 (car on the way back from nursery)
BT 7:15
NW 9, 11, 1 (fed), 3:30 (fed), 4:30 - 5:30 v restless, waking every 5 mins,
WU 5:30

How does it look? I am worried about that late CN but there isn't really any way I can get him to bed before about 6:45 because of the twins. He is still a bit wheezy and coldy and not feeding brilliantly which I guess isn't helping. I feel that it is better as although there were a lot of NW they were much shorter!!

[becj86]

WU is getting later, yes? You could maybe push that first A time a little more, that's an UT nap still there.

Those NW early on in the night are OT at BT which is likely because the day is a little too long but that may settle as the WU moves later.

[4isstillnighttime]

Ok, 2 more:

WU 5:30
S 8:10 - 8:40 (I decided this was OT so did a 2h A....)
S 10:40 - 11:40, resettled 12:00 - 12:40 (needed a lot of resettling though, but was in the pushchair and doesn't usually nap there).
S 3-5 - v restless, lots of resettling at 30 mins and at 45 mins but I had to wake him at 5 to go to nursery
BT 7:15ish
NW 8:15. 1:40-3:00, 5:30 (brother woke him but resettled them both which is a massive double win!!)

WU 7
S 9:30 - 11:10
S 1:40 - 3
S 5 - 5:30
BT 7:30
NW 11 (fed), 2:30-4 (fed twice in desperate attempt to get him back to sleep)
WU 6 - brother woke him.

I think I am going to have to aim for a 6 am wake up - the 7 was only possible because DH was away so didn't have to get up, and I had to bribe the twins with TV to keep them quiet which meant they had watched an hour of TV before breakfast  and then we were late for nursery. So I am going to aim for 6:00 WU and go from there. The danger is that he will go to sleep on the nursery drop off but hopefully not.

He is really struggling to get to 2:30 A - if he is in a good mood today I will try and push it a bit but he is waking up tired from these restless nights. Does it sound ok?

[becj86]

Looking better with that longer A time - naps are longer and unbroken and NWs reduced so if you can stick with it, I'd do that.

What time is nursery drop off?

Thinking something like this might work for a couple of weeks before you increase A again:
6 - WU
8:30-10ish - nap
12:30-2ish - nap
4:30-5/5:15 - nap
6/7 (depending on CN length) BT

[4isstillnighttime]

All of those naps were in the sling though.....tried a cot nap this morning after 2:35 and he woke at 45 mins and wouldn't resettle....not sure whether to abandon cot naps for now until the NWs are sorted out and he is in a good routine? It really threw this morning out as he then fell asleep in the car after 1:30, woke up when we got to the park then fell asleep in the sling 45 mins later so I had to stay about an hour longer than I wanted to to get him at least 1:30 nap.

That schedule looks good though. Should I be waking him from naps now to keep to it or is that not the BW way?!

Thanks again!!

[becj86]

No, don't wake up from naps unless they're 2hr, as a general rule with babies of this age.

Ok, so he's unable to transition to another sleep cycle in the cot, am I right? If so, can you tell me how he gets to sleep in the cot? He's actually at an age where he will be as easy to sleep train as possible IMO, so best to grasp the opportunity before the 6month developmental leap. After that, its even more important that the environment in which he needs to transition to the next sleep cycle is the same as the environment when he fell asleep - this is why white noise that turns off after 45min is the height of uselessness, why putting baby down awake is important, so he's not fallen asleep on you then waking up in a strange location.

Once his body is used to sleeping at those times and for 1.5hr or so, then try putting him in the cot for a nap while he's drowsy but not quite asleep and just hold your hand on his chest and sing or shush (whatever works and is something that will work for you long term. What you do now could well be the thing that works for your child when he's 3 or 4 and sick or out of kilter due to moving house/changing day-cares or whatever else upsets little people.

I wouldn't suggest all naps in the cot though, as you still need him to sleep elsewhere so you're able to get out and about with your twins.

[4isstillnighttime]

Ok, routine for sleep is:

Nap time (sling) - kiss, tuck head in.

Nap time (cot) - clean nappy, sleeping bag, cuddle, lie down awake, dummy. I kind of hold the dummy in with the heel of my hand and stroke his forehead. If he cries I put my cheek right next to his and shh. If he cries with that I pat his chest. If he still cries (this hardly ever happens) I pick him up and cuddle him til he stops crying and looks drowsy then put him down awake again.

Bedtime is the usual plus a last feed on my bed. If I have timed it well he will not fall asleep but he often does. I wake him, sing him a little song and put him down as for a nap. Last night he was wide awake, I had to go to the twins and when I came back he was asleep, dummy was nowhere to be seen. So he can do it!!

To extend his nap today I went upstairs at 30 mins in case he was OT. At 45 he started writhing around so I popped the dummy back in, covered his eyes, shhd. I did that for 15 mins - he kept looking like he was asleep then waking again - this is what he does during his long NW too. In the end one of the twins started shouting for me at the stairgate and then I had to go and he woke up. I remember extending naps with the twins but this is what I did with them and I think it worked most of the time!

[becj86]

So he can do it!!

This is good, he has the skill and is comfortable in the cot, just needs to transfer that skill to a slightly different situation.

To extend his nap today I went upstairs at 30 mins in case he was OT. At 45 he started writhing around so I popped the dummy back in, covered his eyes, shhd. I did that for 15 mins - he kept looking like he was asleep then waking again - this is what he does during his long NW too

So, not OT, that's good - he may benefit from a tiny additional amount of A time, say 5 or 10min. He knew he was supposed to go back to sleep, wanted to go back to sleep, so your A time there is close. TBH, I found OT waking much easier to resettle than UT. Stick with it and he will learn eventually. It is hard, especially with twin toddlers around. DYT white noise would help so he's not hearing the twins playing?

[4isstillnighttime]

He was up at 4 this morning  so I put him down at 6:45 and he has slept 1:30 and counting. Should I just carry on a 2:45 for the rest of the day? We have a big family party tonight so he is going to have to be put to bed in the car seat, not ideal....

[4isstillnighttime]

So annoying - the baby over the road is about the same age and she doesn't get up til 10! I will have been up for 6 hours by then!!

[becj86]

Is that in the cot? If so, I'd stick with 2:45 and see how it goes. Life has to go on, it's never going to be perfect.

So annoying - the baby over the road is about the same age and she doesn't get up til 10! I will have been up for 6 hours by then!!

Yeah, that must be really annoying!

[4isstillnighttime]

Yes, in the cot!!!

Has backfired a bit because when I went to check on him his was awake and playing so I didn't know when he woke up. So I guessed and got an UT 45 min nap so obviously guessed wrong! Still, onwards and upwards, and I will try for as close to 2:45 as I can now.

Thanks again for the help and the moral support!!

[becj86]

All good We live and learn.

How was that for gentle sleep training?

[4isstillnighttime]

Can I pick your brains again? I am getting good naps with 2:45 A but nights are still a bit of a nightmare. Lots and lots of NW and EW every morning. I am worried he is OT as he looks quite knackered but he is a happy little soul so still smiling!

Yesterday's EASY

WU 5, fed back to sleep til 6 but woke up if unlatche
S 8:45 - 10:10
S 12:50 - 2:15
S 5-5:30
BT 7:15 but didn't go to sleep for ages - prob 7:50
NW 10, 11 (fed), 1, 2 (fed), 4, 5 (fed but didn't go back to sleep)

This is pretty much how the last 4 days have been. I am wondering if the CN is too long, or if I need a later BT, or if I need a longer A.....it is a massive struggle getting him out to 2:45 though. I think 2 NF is v reasonable and I'm not looking to night wean, but it's all the other wakings and particularly waking at 5 and singing loudly!! The twins are poorly and are up all night so I could really do with the baby sleeping better 

Thanks! And also thanks for helping me avoid sleep training altogether!!

[becj86]

Can you update me on his age? Could be he's UT and needing more A time by the sounds of that 5am waking given BT of 7:15. That first nap is shrinking to just under 1.5hr too, another clue it could be time for an increase to 3hr.

Teething? Coming down with a cold or some such? Waking every hour smacks of discomfort, sorry to say

I realise its probably hard to get that first A time out of him given the broken night but its also the only way the night will become more solid.

[4isstillnighttime]

He is 23 weeks. I pushed for 3 hours A this morning, didn't quite get there but will keep trying. He could def be teething as he is v bitey but I don't see teeth...perhaps I will give him some calpol tonight and see if it helps. The twins were MISERABLE when they were teething but he is such a happy soul maybe he is and doesn't like to complain 

 I'll push the A times a bit then and see if it helps.

[becj86]

Yeah, DS when teething just got bitey, ran slightly hotter than usual (37.1 vs 36.5) and woke FREQUENTLY.

FX that works for you

[4isstillnighttime]

Well, twin 1 is very poorly so I was up all night with him and def disturbed the baby. But here was our EASY from yesterday...

WU 5
S 7:45 - 9
S 12-1:15, still looked tired so resettled (took 15 mins) and slept til 2:30
S 5:30-6 in the car on the way to the doctor for my poorly boy
BT 8 (back from doctors)
NW 1 (fed), 3 (fed), 5(fed(
WU 6

I popped him down at 9, took 10 mins to settle and I had to resettle at 30 mins....but still going at 1:15. Shall I just persevere and hope the nights fall into place?

[4isstillnighttime]

I spoke too soon - up at 1:15. Looks tired but couldn't resettle. I'll do another 3h awake (he has been up for an hour and is rubbing his eyes already!) and hopefully get a longer nap this time.

[becj86]

Is he waking with any discomfort/squirming at those 3am and 5am wakings? Remind me is he breastfeed?

Yes, I think if you keep going with that increase to 3hr, it will help. See how that first nap is shrinking further - was 1:25, now 1:15 both off 2:45 A time - that's the clue that he needs more A time.

[4isstillnighttime]

That's the annoying thing - no discomfort, no squirming, not even really crying! Just....awake!! Whimpering a bit I suppose but the 5am one I think he would v happily just get up! I only feed him in a desperate attempt not to start my day then!! Yes he is breastfed, and at night wakings he usually feeds to sleep.

He did another mammoth nap for his second nap today - 2:30 but resettled at 30 mins (easily) and again at 1:15 - difficult, took about 20 mins. But he looks fantastic for it! I think the 3h awake is a real stretch for him and he is difficult to settle at nap and bedtime now as he is screaming with tiredness....but I guess I have to persevere and he will get used to it....

[becj86]

3h awake is a real stretch for him and he is difficult to settle at nap and bedtime

Yeah, it will be a stretch, definitely worth getting on top of it though. As he gets better nights and his naps lengthen again, it will be easier.

What is the most reliable BT you're able to do? You may have to try to shift your WU later as the long days are probably part of the issue with BT screaming.

Also, if he's not upset at a NW, don't feel pressure to do anything. Unless he's crying for you, just leave him - that's how these props get really entrenched.

[4isstillnighttime]

The earliest I could get him to bed is 6:30. And that would mean rushing back from nursery, dumping the twins in front of the tv, dashing upstairs and putting him down. I could do it....

Yesterday's EASY

WU 5, fed back to sleep and dozed until 6
S 9-10:30 (resettled at 30 mins)
S 1:30 - 4 (quick resettle at 30 mins, long one at 1:15)
BT 7, fell asleep about 7:30 (needed patting)
NW 10 (quick resettle), 1 (fed), 3:30 (fed)
WU 5 - I just left him and he played in his cot for 45 mins then started crying but wouldn't go to sleep so got him up.

We have just limped through to 8 for first nap and he is asleep. The trouble is I have to do the nursery run Mon-Wed - it's a bit flexible but somewhere between 7:45 and 8:30. 10 min drive there, 5 mins to drop kids, 5 mins back (no traffic). He will sleep in the car but he doesn't like it and has never done more than 45 mins, even if I keep driving around.

I'm sure the night feeds are getting to be a bit of a prop. He had a good feed at 1 (both sides, back to bed awake, settled with shh pat) but at 3:30 it was a bit of a token effort.

I'm sorry this is turning into such an epic!!

[becj86]

Oh, this is a great opportunity to do 'transfer training' I trained DS to transfer from car to bed and then sleep. He had to be an independent sleeper and it only really worked for his cot at home but it was a godsend when he fell asleep in the car. I did a sort of shush/pat from car to bed and then put him down and kept patting til he'd settled again and slowly reduced the assistance.

If BT is going to be more like 7 or 7:30 which seems more realistic, its probably important to get him to sleep a bit later in the morning. Ideally he shouldn't have more than a 13hr day, so 11hr minimum night at this age.

WRT feeds, 2 NF at this age is well within the realms of normal but you could look at resettling with shush/pat if he's not been 4hr between feeds. He can do that in the day, right? So he should be able to at night too.

[4isstillnighttime]

Wow, that would be amazing if I could transfer him!! I'll give it a shot on Monday.

He can easily do 4 hours in the day but often doesn't as I tend to feed him when I have a quiet moment! So maybe I need to work on that a bit too. When he was on a strict EASY he lost weight as he is tongue tied and feeding is quite hard work for him - tends to take one side then the other about 20 mins later. But I generally don't feed too after midnight so he is going at least 5 hours then.

So....my plan for the next few days (although we are at another wedding tomorrow....)

3h A
Resettle naps aiming for 2h? I resettled him this morning at 1:15 and he is still going strong.
Try and shhhh pat that 3am feed (if he has had a good feed at 1 - will have to set an alarm to stop myself just going back to sleep!)

I would ideally have a 6am WU - that's what the twins are doing now so would work for us quite well. And a 6:30 or 7 BT - they could all have a bath then twins have stories while baby settles then half an hour "big kid" time before their BT. How do I get it later though??

[becj86]

With a 6am WU then BT of 6:30/7 is fine.

Resettle naps aiming for >1.5hr though 2hr is nice

Looks like a sound plan, best of luck.