Author Topic: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition  (Read 4628 times)

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Offline ReneeVan

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7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« on: October 27, 2015, 22:44:32 pm »
Hi,

I'm new to this board. I have a 7.5 month old & I have been struggling with his routine for a month or so. He was doing really well from about 4 - 6 months & was following this routine:
Wake between 5 & 5:30am (feed)
Wake between 6 & 7am. Top up feed. I always try & leave him in his cot till close to 7am.
Nap 9am - 10:20/30.
Feed 11am
Nap 1pm - 2:20/30
Feed 3pm
Nap 4-4:30pm sometimes a tad later.
Bath 6pm
Bottle 6:30pm
Bed 7pm.
As I said a month or so ago my son started to cut three teeth & about the same time this routine stopped working. He started to have a really restless morning sleep which could of been due to teething & also the fact he was breaking free from his swaddle & was used to being swaddled for naps so he would go down at 9am & wake about 10:10am but this wasn't a restorative sleep as it was restless. I would then put him down at 1pm & he would be awake wishin 30 mins. He also stated to roll in the cot about this time so removed the swaddle. I would leave him in the cot till about 2pm but wouldn't go back to sleep so was so tired & grumpy by 3:30/4pm & would have a cat nap & then would go to bed at 7pm. He would wake between 5:30 & 5:50am for the day. No more feed at this time I would just leave him in the cot & he plays happily.
I recently bought a book called save our sleep & have been trying to follow the 6.5 - 9 month routine which has sleeps  at 9:20am & 1:20pm. The book indicates to not put baby down untill these times reargless of whst time he/she wakes so I have been doing that. But I have no idea what im doing & whether he's ready to cut the cat nap as this book suggests. The last few days have been a little better and have gone like this.

Sunday

Wake 5:50am
Nap 9:20 - asleep within a few minutes
Woke 10:30ish & dozed on & off till 11am.
Nap 1:20pm - asleep within 5 minutes or so.
Woke 2pm. Went back to sleep till 2:20pm Got him up 2:30pm.
Nap 4pm - 4:20.
Bed 7pm. Asleep within 10 mins.
Woke 12:45am briefly. Played with his comforter & went back to sleep. No intervention from me.
Woke 5:50am. Left him till 7am.

Monday

Nap 9:20am - asleep within a few mins
Woke 10:30ish dozed on & off till 11am. It's like he's trying to go into another sleep cycle but can't quite get there??
Nap 1:20pm. He kept stirring about every 10 minutes till 2pm then finally went into a deep sleep till 2:30pm. He then tried to go back to sleep till 3pm & finally fell back to sleep from 3pm - 3:15pm.
Bed 6:15ish. I wasn't sure what time to put him to bed, I didn't want him to get overtired as his lunch sleep was not a solid sleep due to him waking so frequently. I just aimed for him to be asleep by 6:30pm which he was.
Woke 6:15am.

Tuesday

Nap 9:20 - asleep within a few minutes.
Woke 10:30am. Again he tried to go back to sleep till 11am but kept waking every 10 minutes.
Nap 1:20. Woke 2:40pm. This sleep was actually in the car as I had to be out at nap time today.
Skipped the cat nap & put him to bed at 6pm. I wasn't confident to push him aby later.
Woke 5:20am!!! Booooo

How do you think he's going? Is he ready to drop the cat nap?
Do you think it will take time for him to sleep more solidly at these naps or does he need a little bit more awake time?
He has been waking every night for the last 5 nights between 12:45pm & 1:30am. He squeals & plays for a bit then goes back to sleep. Not sure how long he is awake for as the baby monitor just goes off for a bit. Although Last night he was awake for about 30 - 45 mins squealing & playing from 1:30am. I just leave him. Is this a phase, something developmental perhaps? Or is there another reason for this night waking like a routine issue?

Sorry for the lengthy post. I'm a first time mum & have no idea what im doing but feel that my son does better with consistency in his dsy as do I. Tired signs seem a thing of the past so I really need to follow a routine rather than wait for those non existent tired signs to appear. I guess I'm lost because as of a month ago he seems to be asleep within 2 hours generally of waking & now I'm not sure what's happening or when to put him down. It makes me anxious & I'm struggling to get back on track.

Any help appreciated!

Renee

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 08:38:09 am »
Hello and welcome to BW forums :)

It does look like a good time to move to 2 naps.
I recently bought a book called save our sleep & have been trying to follow the 6.5 - 9 month routine which has sleeps  at 9:20am & 1:20pm. The book indicates to not put baby down untill these times reargless of whst time he/she wakes so I have been doing that.
Sorry, I can't comment on this book as I don't know it. What I can say is that the EASY routine is not a strict schedule of times in this way but rather it is adapted to LOs individual needs.  I would seem that this strict schedule has helped you to get a longer first A time and a better first nap though.

Based on the information you've given I'd say your LO needs at least 3hr 30 first A time. He got 3hr 30 A time with the 5.50am WU and 9.20 nap and was trying to extend his nap to 1.5hrs but that seems to also be after a period of wakefulness in the night.  I'd probably increase the first A time a bit to see if it helps him get into that next sleep cycle but rather than have a set nap time (of 9.20am) I would adapt the nap time depending on his morning WU time until you get a more consistent 7am WU.
The second nap is coming too soon IMO, his restlessness for the first half hour or so looks like he is under tired for that nap, which is not surprising as it does come pretty soon after his first nap. The restlessness until 2pm looks like he's extending his own A time, so roughly 3hrs from 11ish until 2ish.  Again I'd prob give him a good 3hrs before put down to help him have a proper nap.

Based on that info then how about something like this:
WU 7.00
A 3hr 40
S 10.40 - 12.10 (1.5hr)
A 3hr
S 3.10 - 4.40 (1.5hr)
A 2hr 20
BT 7.00

I know you've said you want consistency to the day but it's difficult to suggest a 'fixed' time for naps when we are not really sure how your LO will react to the times. This sample routine is a bit of guess work from the info you've given, a starting point, after you try it out we'd look again at how it's going and see if he needed a bit less/more A time somewhere in the day or for example a slightly later BT to help with those NWs.

The routine above is written out as a 7am morning WU.  If your LO woke earlier you would need to amend the times accordingly so that the A times didn't get too long. EG with a 6.30WU you need first nap at 10.10am to maintain the 3hr 40 A time.  As the last A of the day is shorter you would have a little leeway there to maintain close to a 7pm BT but again it is not a set time, I would not let the last A go over 3hrs at this point (the same way you have recently altered BT based on nap times).
It does take some flexibility but hopefully would settle down into a more predictable routine with basically the same times each day.
What do you think?

also here's a link to guidance A times
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
You'll see at 7  months some LOs are getting more than 3hr 15 A time, just depends on their individual needs.


Offline ReneeVan

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 20:21:27 pm »
Thank you for your reply.

I was wondering whether he needs more awake time. However, he seems so tired when I put him down & is asleep very quickly. I will slowly start to push & see how we go.

I'm concerned about the night wakes. Last night he woke at 12pm crying, it was like he was crying in his sleep. Then he woke again at 2:45am. Then again at 3:45am this time squealing. And woke for the day about 6am. Are these night wakes accosisyrd with the nap tranistion? He has never woken this much before. Is this normal at 7.5 month to start to get night wakes & happy ones?

He woke yesterday at 3pm after a restless nap & I put him to bed at 6:15 asleep by 6:25 maybe this was too late?

Renee

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2015, 22:31:00 pm »
I think your first A time was already 3hr 30, I'd move directly to 3hr 40.
Your second A time I think was about 2hr 20.  I would go to 2hr 40 but only for a day or two and then increase to 3hr. There can be problems associated with increasing too slowly when a LO is on too low an A time for age.

One of the problems can be that the A still isn't long enough with the small increase so nothing gets better.
Another possible problem can be that the last A time ends up too long because the earlier A times have not been increased rapidly enough. A long A time to BT can well lead to OT NW which is I think what you had yesterday. 3hr 25 A time before BT and he woke at midnight crying.  This is a very long A time to bed but I understand you don't want to give BT too early because you don't want LO to wake up any earlier than he does already!  This is why it's better to more rapidly increase the second A.

hope this helps


Offline ReneeVan

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2015, 23:19:43 pm »
Thank you thst all makes a lot of sense.

I put him down at 9:20 again today & he seemed to struggle a bit at 10am to get into thst next sleep cycle so I think I could push the awake time.

I agree about the sleep crying & it being an overtired cry. I will aim for 3 hours before bed however this could be 5:30/6pm which leads to a 5/5:30am wake up! He generally only seems to ever max a 11-11.5 hour night with night wakes. So I guess the only way around this is to push the awakes & hope for longer naps which leads to a later bedtime. If he was to wake at 2/2:30 for his second so so only sleeping 30-60 mins woukd you recommend a short 20 min nap at 4pm then 7pm bedtime?

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2015, 23:31:23 pm »
Well, if you can get a CN out of him on any day and move BT to 7.30/8pm I'd say things would look prettier all around, wouldn't you?  I wouldn't have been able to get mine to take an extra nap you see so this wouldn't have been an option for ma, but if you think your LO will do it I would totally use that to move BT later.
IME if a LO can only do 11hr nights there is totally no point hoping for 12.  Instead I would decide when you want the morning WU (7 sounds reasonable) and put LO to bed at a suitable time (7.30/8).  Sorry too, I may have mis read your EASY times as I thought you were giving 12hr nights which is why I gave the sample routine above.

If you can do a later BT and get a later WU you would be more able to maintain the routine I think. Second A time could increase and last A time still not get too long.


Offline ReneeVan

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2015, 02:49:26 am »
Yes I guess so. If he has woken at 2 or 2:30pm from his lunch nap & I'm out driving he will fall asleep in the car at 4pm for about 20 mins then I usually put him to bed at 7pm. But I was under the impression that a 7.5 month old should be not having thst cat nap as it interferes with night sleep if baby sleeps past 4pm & has a 7pm bedtime. Do you know anything about this? I don't really want a bedtime later than 7pm. I don't mind him rising for the day at 6 but 6:30 for be better. I just do t want to start my day at 5 or 5:30am!

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2015, 20:01:54 pm »
I was under the impression that a 7.5 month old should be not having thst cat nap as it interferes with night sleep if baby sleeps past 4pm & has a 7pm bedtime
Well this would be true for a LO who will resist BT after anything shorter than a 3hr last A time.  Mine always had a very short last A time as do many others.  some do like a long last A though so it really depends on your LO. We don't really have hard and fast rules, more guidance that can be adjusted for LO's individual needs.

If you prefer WU to be 6.30am it looks like you'll need to go for 7.30pm BT.  With an 11hr night it's either earlier WU or later BT.  It's unlikely you'll manage 7-7.  I think you were saying a 11.5hr night was with NWs, so it's likely 11hrs without NWs. Does he still have a night feed?


Offline ReneeVan

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2015, 22:42:49 pm »
So I trialed a cat nap at 4pm after an afternoon nap from 1:20pm - 2:30pm & he wasn't tired at 7pm bedtime taking about 20 mins to go to sleep then he was wide awake & ready to start the day at 4:40am! So I'm thinking he needs 3 hours awake before bed.

The last two days his 1:20pm nap has been till about 3pm. I've been trying to get him into bed by 6pm but it's been closer to 6:15/6:20pm. He sleeps through till about 3:30/4am & then he cries & seems to struggle to go bsck to sleep. Do you think this NW would be because he's been awake too long before bedtime? Or something else? Should I aim to have him asleep at 3 hours?

My LO seems to handle a long awake time in the morning. I have been keeping him up till 9:20am regardless of what time he wakes & this varies between 5:20am & 6:10am & he been lasting  fine. He is pretty dam tired by 9:15 though. He seems to do much better on scheduled nap times so I thought I would just stick with the 9:20 & 1:20 for a couple more days then push the second nap till 1:40 & hope he sleeps till after 3pm allowing me to push bedtime to 6:30pm. I'm so nervous about doing this as it's taken me soooo long to get him sleeping at these times! Any other suggestions welcome!

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2015, 12:38:53 pm »
I have given you my advice which is based on the Baby Whisperer ethos, the EASY routine and your individual child's needs based on the information you provided.  I'm sorry but I really cannot advise you on a set routine you found in a book which I know nothing about. As I said before, I am not at all familiar with the book.
I would suggest you either:
- find a support site linked to the method you are choosing to use which is not BW/EASY
or
- choose the EASY routine and take on board the suggestions given.

Having just read some reviews of the book you mention it appears to encourage controlled crying and cry it out (CC and CIO) methods which we do not agree with on Baby Whisperer.  If you have used these methods you will have broken the bond of trust between you and your child. The BW community would be happy to support you through a process of regaining trust of your child and to work towards and more respectful sleep training method and suitable routine, but we do not advocate CC or CIO methods.

Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!
Cry it out (CIO): 10 reasons why it is not for us


Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2015, 14:54:19 pm »
Hi,

I want to tell you a little story about how I came to join this site if I may?

I had terrible issues with DD short napping and tried to do everything 'by the book' and do naps at the set A times mentioned in BW. When I joined here, I was reminded that children do not fit into a box of set times, they are individuals and the basis of Tracy's teachings was to listen and respond to our LO's and try and decipher the messages they are telling us in their own little way. I had forgotten this. I was so determined to know what time she was to go down for a nap and BT I totally forgot to sit back and read my own child.

This is essentially what creations is also trying to say. We can only advise as per the BW methods as that's what we are here to do. We can also only advise based on the information you give us and then we tailor it to your child's individual needs.

My DD too has only ever done an 11hr night, maybe 11.5 on occasion but always closer to 11hrs. We just need to find a routine for the time being that will fit with this. With this in mind I would also vote to increase the second A, as it seems too short and so as not to have too long of an A time to BT. OT before BT caused OT NW's and EW here which doesn't help with the next day extending the A times either. 3.5hrs to BT has shown to be far too long for your LO based on your posts before, I really wouldn't try and consider keeping that as the norm.

Look, set naps can work well for some. But they are very short lived at this age until they are ready to go to one nap between 10-18mths old. Then I've found a set nap and BT work well. Until then they rapidly want to increase their A times and set naps can cause more issues than they're worth as you fight and fight to get them down. Just IMHO.

I hope we can help you, but we really can't advise by the methods in another book, especially one that advocates CIO or CC. Xx



Offline ReneeVan

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2015, 03:27:56 am »
Thank you for your help. I have only just purchased the book I have referenced above & I'm using it solely as a guide to their age appropriate routines. I have never let my son CIO, he is a thumb sucker & when I lsy him down he sucks his thumb to sleep. A beautiful way of self soothing.

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2015, 13:53:07 pm »
It's great to hear you have not used CIO, there is often huge external pressure from friends and family (as well as books) to do so. It sounds like your Lo is self soothing beautifully. Really pleased to hear that.
 :-*

Whilst I don't know the book, I would say that the 'age appropriate routines' sound quite odd to me.  It may even be that these routines only work with LOs who have been forced into them with the use of CIO so they no longer communicate their needs.  I can't say for sure.

There are people here who are happy to help find a suitable routine based on your LOs age and needs though.


Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old routine & 3 - 2 nap transition
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2015, 19:47:33 pm »
I love a thumb too! Life saver in this house  ;). So glad you've not done CIO, do pop back and let us know how it's working out and if you'd like our help tweaking something xx