8 month old suddenly naps too short

[RhoGre]

Hello!! What advice can you give me - my 8 month old is suddenly not napping well. Nothing has change...he goes to sleep by himself and sleeps through the night...I just weaned him from the dream feed and it went well.  The morning nap is barely one cycle and then the 2nd nap is bad b/c the first one is bad.  He was sleeping 2 cycles each nap and a cat nap...the cat nap was hit or miss so I deleted it a few days but give it when needed like I will today b/c both naps are bad.  He is crying right now b/c he can not get back to sleep.  I have never really gone in to help during naps but now if I do it distracts him and he screams louder and he will definitely not nap.  I am deciding not to go in and help him yet I feel bad that he is crying ..... but he is trying to fall asleep - he's not just wailing sitting up.  He is definitely more mobile.  Do  I just let him figure it out b/c that is how he has been...do I give naps closer together if he only sleeps one cycle?  I don't think he can make it on just one cycle in the morning.   Also his morning time is never consistent.  Some days he wakes at 7 and some days at 6....I usually consistently get him around 6:40 unless he is sleeping...so sometimes he has been awake already for 30 minutes but is quiet...but then he is tired by the time I get him breakfast at 8:10 (I breastfeed right when he wakes and the feed breakfast around 8:15 ,....but then he neds a few minutes before I put him down but I feel like he is overtired....hard to help him. 

I just feel guilty letting him cry the rest of the duration of the nap but he won't be hungry if I get him up and then I won't be able to give him snack and lunch before he gets over tired...and I want to make sure he has enough food to last a long nap and so that he won't wake at night....I hope all this makes sense....any advice?  I really like Baby Whisperer ideas...they do work ....I also don't want to start any accidental parenting! ... now he fell asleep after 20 minutes of crying...but if I would have gone in there I don't think he would have fallen asleep but I know she doesn't believe in letting the baby cry alone....is this a different case b/c he has the skills to fall asleep but is just overtired?  I know I ramble...thank you for you patience and advice....

[Kellyjs]

Hun, first of all we don't support leaving a LO to cry alone. Tracy believed it broke the bonds of trust between a LO and its caregiver. If he is awake and will not resettle, get him up and do some A until the next feed is due, please. He is not OT and if he were, he's asking for mummy, so please go to him. Can you do that for me please??

2hrs A time will definitely not be enough for an 8mo hun, that's why he's napping for only one sleep cycle, he's UT. 3, even 4hrs can be the norm at this age.

Could you post yesterday's routine for me in real time and we can see what we can do to work on it so it makes it easier on you both? In the meantime, I think we'd better work on re establishing his trust ok? It will get better, I promise. Please let me help you through this xx

Regaining Trust of Your Child

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[RhoGre]

Thank you for the reply....I really do feel awful and it is against my better judgement to let him cry...it is sort of mantra I'm trying to go to sleep cry...He is not used to my presences while sleeping b/c he goes to sleep on his own w/ no problem and he sleeps through the night.  He isn't fussy about playing in the play pen alone...he has started a little separation anxiety when I put him down to play and if I do chores..but I do reassure him rather than rescue him like the book says...he is then fine for about 20/30 minutes and I do check him and pop over to reassure him.  I do have a toddler also and it is hard to give as much attention to my 8 month old during naps as I did with my toddler at that age but I think I made myself a prop and I am afraid of doing that again.

Here was his schedule yesterday.  (I am confused b/c in the book it says for 6-9 months the wake time is 2-2 1/2 hours...I feel like depending on which book you are reading (I have all 3) it says slightly different things - I love what she says and it works...I just get easily confused and I have to admit I am learning to not be so rigid/ by the book...it is hard for me at times to read the situation...I'm a new mom I wouldn't know what I was doing with out her books!

My sweetie was up at 6:30 (or earlier - he was quiet and sitting up when I woke so I don't really know when he woke).

I got him at 6:45 and breastfeed him at 7:00
He then plays on the floor 1/2 hour and then has playpen time 20-30 minutes and a change of diaper
I fed him breakfast at 8:15
Then we have some book time
I left his room at 8:58 and he went right to sleep (I read him 2 books, kiss him, pray with him and put him down and leave)
He woke at 9:40 and cried a little (mantra) so I waited....he almost fell back asleep b/c he was quiet for about 10 minutes and looked asleep..then he started mantra...then quiet again...then mantra..he then sat up a few times but was fussy ...I got him up at 10:35 (I thought I should keep trying for the full length of the nap - I don't think I went in at all b/c my presence distracts him and he gets more upset and he just looks at me...again I haven't had to go in b/c I started teaching him to sleep from the beginning as the book suggests.
I breast fed at 11:10
he was in the car seat (we ran an errand) and then in his saucer (stand up toy thing)
12:20 I fed him lunch
I left his room at 12:53 for his 2nd nap...( I thought he was tired from not having a good nap - I would put him down later if his nap was good) He sat and played a little and then fell asleep at 1:08...he cried out at 1:38 and then fell asleep again... at 1:47 he cried out and slept until 2:34 but woke fussy...I got him up
he played in his pack-n-play
I fed him at 3:00
Activity time until 5:00 (I didn't even try a cat nap today b/c 2:30 wake time was close to dinner time at 5:00
5:00 feed until 5:30
5:30 - 6:10 play time on floor
6:10 bath
6:25 breastfeed
6:30 - left room  - right to sleep ...cried out once around 9:00 ...but did not wake
slept through night...he has really been sleeping through the night since 11 weeks

I guess I get confused b/c I know the book says if he wakes early from a nap two days in a row it could be a habit.  So I don't want to get him right up b/c I feel like I would be teaching him that he doesn't have to nap long. I don't want to have him cry in the crib...it seems like sometimes if I don't rush in he falls back asleep on his own...like he did in the 2nd nap...if I had gone in...he would have been looking for that and he doesn't rest with me there...my voice and hand distract him b/c he isn't used to it and I don't want to add that prop.

What do you suggest?
Thank you for your advice and patience with me

[RhoGre]

Just another note...I haven't let him CIO in the past....I worked with him for his whole life so far ...I just scaled the help back b/c I have a toddler that I can't leave alone..and my 8 month old does know how to sleep into the second cycle...it is just very inconsistent and sometimes I can tell he is tired and needs more sleep......
Thanks again for the help!

[RhoGre]

Oh yeah...how do I know if he needs a short nap in the morning and a longer one in the afternoon, or two long naps (1 1/2 hour) ...in the book it says some babies need a cat nap in the morning and a longer in the afternoon or one long nap...it's hard to tell....I did put him down at 10:00 one morning and he slept through for 1 hour and 17 minutes (but his wake time wasn't very active before that b/c we were doing errands) and his other nap that day was 1 hour and 7 minutes...is that enough?  I always think the naps should be longer like 1 1/2 hours each ...but I know his bed time is early but he seems to need that bed time b/c of the shorter naps and he does sleep until 6, 6:30 or 7:00 the next morning...each day is different.  I have tired wake to sleep.  He was doing 1 hour and 20 minute naps up until the last week or so.

Thanks again...I have a lot of thoughts/questions

[Kellyjs]

I've seen your posts hun, just need to feed my DD breakfast and I'll come back to you with a more detailed reply ok? Xx

[Kellyjs]

I know exactly what you mean, it's hard to tell isn't it? I too am a by the book person. I kept the exact right A times for DD and she short napped forever. It was only through joining this site and the encouragement from others on here that helped me push her times and hey presto, long naps! Took a while mind you, but we did get there. I'm sure it'll be the same for you hun. Remember the basis of Tracy's teachings is to watch our LO's, they are always telling us something. Whether it be by crying or short napping, one way or another they're saying something!

At 8mo I'd try for two longer naps hun. It will change, and probably soon as he nears the 2-1 transiitn in a few months. The A times increase pretty rapidly now. That's what the book says is when they near the 2-1, the A times are just getting so high that it becomes hard to fit in two decent naps in one day so we have to cap one of them to achieve a decent BT. As your A times are quite short, we'll look at increasing gradually and see where we end up ok? It will take patience and 8mo is a tricky time for sleep anyhow, but if you keep logging the days and any NW's, EW, or early wu from naps we'll be able to see a pattern.

Anything above an hour nap is considered restorative. It totally depends on an LO's sleep cycle whether they are capable of 1.5 hr long naps. Yours seems to have a 40mims one so I would expect nearer to 1hr 20 might be the norm. As you experienced earlier on it seems.

Ok, back to the A times. There is a large range of what's normal at this age. Mine was doing 4hrs 15mims first thing, so,e can't handle more than 3. So we'll just take it slowly ok?

Saying that, as 2hrs is much too short, how do you feel about jumping that first A straight to 2hrs 45 mins and holding for 2 days? Don't think it's too far off what you were doing as we aren't too sue what time he woke first thing.

I think your second nap was a little OT as he woke at the 30mims mark. 3.5 hrs A after a short nap might be a tad too long there. So I might reduce that back to 3hrs, asleep by 3hrs 15mins max.

Great BT there is seems. Good to know he can go 4hrs before BT without being too OT.

Can you see a pattern there now I've laid it out? You're expecting a good nap after around 2hrs A and he's goes to sleep really well for BT at 4 hrs A? This last one might be a tad too lomg in the long term but I think if we increase that first one, that will effectively reduce the last one anyway and space the day out better. So what do you think? Good plan? Xx

[RhoGre]

Hello!  Thank you so much for your post - very helpful.  I only just read it right now and so two days have passed and I tried what you mentioned first and I will try what you just mentioned tomorrow and for a few days.

Here were the last two days:

Thursday
Wake at 6:20 happy and I got him at 6:30 - breastfeed at 6:30
Activity - playpen, hold, crawl time, stroller for walk
8:30 breakfast
9:15 started nap - sleep by 9:20 - he cried out at 9:53 (but mantra so I waited so as not to rush in) and he fell back asleep and slept until 10:30 but woke cranky but I got him up b/c it was two cycles
10:30-11:00 Activity
11:00- breastfeed for snack
Activity - library, playpen, crawl play
12:40 - Lunch
Activity until 1:29
Nap at 1:29...woke at 2:06 cried a little but again I waited and he fell asleep for about 7 minutes and then was a little upset (not screaming just mantra so I waited)  he then sat up and i could tell he wasn't going to go back to sleep so I got him at 2:25
----I am confused here b/c it seems like he was OT b/c only 30 minutes sleep but he did go back to sleep but couldn't do it. Could this be UT b/c he didn't have long enough activity between naps?
3:30 breastfeed
Activity
5:10 dinner
6:15 breastfeed and put down for nap - slept through night until 6:10 (cried out at 10:00 but did not wake)

Friday (today)
6:10 wake but was quiet so I left him until 6:45
6:50 breastfeed
activity until 8:50
8:50 breakfast (I finish with breast and he was falling asleep so I knew he was tired)
9:15 started nap process - left him at 9:28 and he was right to sleep but woke at 10:00 and mantra for about 9 minutes - I didn't rush in- he fell back alseep for another cycle until 10:56 but woke cranky again
11:00 breastfeed
activity until 12:40
12:40 lunch
1:21 - left him for his 2nd nap (I wasn't sure - he didn't seem tired but I was thinking he may have been overtired from the day so I didn't want to risk it but ...) he played for about 4 minutes in the bed and then laid down and went to sleep but woke at 2:00 but went back to sleep for 10 minutes but then cried out and sat up ..I waited so as not to rush in and then I went in to reassure him at 2:39 - I laid him back down and spoke softly to him telling him it's still nap time...I left and he was a little upset but then sat up and was quiet...I got him at 2:50 b/c clearly he wasn't going back to sleep but he wasn't crying.
3:00 breast feed
Activity until 5:00 (he yawned at dinner)
5:00 dinner
6:20 breastfeed and bed - a few small cries to bed but right to sleep

I share your same concern that the time after the 2nd nap is too long...he sometimes gets a little fussy right after dinner (I don't want to move up the bed time as 6:30 is early enough and it works for him right now.  I mean sometimes it is 6:20 or 6:15 but it is mostly around 6:25.

I think I moved the A time too fast after reading your 1st post...I forgot about gradual changes.  I think today it was too long and then the A time between the naps is too short.  I was looking at my notes from my 1st child and he was having 3-4 hour wake time between the naps (I know they are different but there are some similarities).

I will try the 2 hours and 45 minutes in the morning as you suggested...it seems that even though he was in the dark for 30 minutes when he woke ....he was still awake and 3 hours was too much for him...
I will try 3 hours between the 2 naps??

I just feel for the little thing b/c he was napping so well and not waking at the end of the cycle ...it seems strange he goes from 3 good naps (two hour and 20 minute naps and a 40 minute cat nap to two poor naps like he is doing now....you are right the awake times moved rapidly that I didn't notice b/c 2 hours was his max and all of a sudden he can stay awake longer...

I like what you said about watching him like Tracey suggests...I sensed that today he wasn't tired when I put him down for the second nap but then he did fall asleep but woke after 30 minutes so OT or UT.....sometimes he doesn't seem tired but he sleeps for 2 cycles...and I don't want to wait too long b/c then he will be OT....it's hard b/c he is basically a very smilely baby...I am blessed and I do just want to do what is best for him as we all do w/ out children
Thank you for writing and helping me!!!!!!

[Kellyjs]

You're doing really well hun, remember that. It will take time to find out the right A time. I think your plan is a good one, let's stick with it for a few days and see if a pattern emerges. We can already see about that second A.

I do think it's more UT than OT between the naps. I'm more scared of UT as there's no chance of getting them back down as you've experienced. At least with OT there's a chance of resettling. And I can see what you're saying about the last A, it's just that's where I'm so cautious about OT. I much prefer for any OT to be in the day rather than at night!

Good luck today and keep me posted. I might be a bit patchy today and tomorrow as we're off for the wknd. But do keep the A times steady as we've said ok? Xx

[RhoGre]

Hello!  Thank you for your message.  Always helpful and encouraging.

Saturday went well.  Here was his schedule:

He was up at 6:30 not sure when exactly he woke but I got him at up.
6:50 breastfeed
8:30 breakfast
9:38 - 11:00 sleep w/ not wake up!  (His activity time was very low key before this nap b/c we were doing errands)
11:08 breastfeed
12:50 Lunch (sleepy when I finished lunch w/ breastfeeding but it was only 1:15..so I gave him a little awake time)
1:38 left room for 2nd nap...cried at 2:22..mantra, sat up but crying was mantra so I didn't go in...quiet at 2:41 and sleep until 3:30 but woke cranky
3:30 breastfeed
5:05 dinner
6:15 breastfeed and bed by 6:30
slept through night w/ no wake up until 6:30 except the clocks were turned back so it was really 5:30!!

Sunday
5:30 wake - got him at 6:00 he was a bit cranky
6:00 breastfeed
7:45 breakfast
8:28 left for his nap and 9:05 woke w/ mantra....was quiet then mantra ... was quiet .. then mantra..then sat up and quiet and some small cries..I got him at 9:50ish
11:00 breastfeed
Activity time - was very fussy (we were at church and first time he was not able to stay in nursery ..but I understood he was tired)
12:30 lunch
I left at 12:52 for his nap..sleep at 12:57 wake at 1:27  ..mantra..sat up...quiet and wake again at 2:16 I got him up then. 
3:00 breastfeed
5:20 dinner
6;30 breastfeed and bed
slept through the night until 5:30ish with one cry out at 8:00 but did not wake

Today
was up at 5:30ish w/ a bit of a mantra he got quiet for 2 ten minute periods but did not fall back asleep so i got him up at 6:30
6:38 breast
8:10 breaskfast
8:45-9:10 nap w/  no wake up but did wake a bit cranky but got him up b/c over an hour w/ not wake
activity time is low key b/c doing errands
11:00 breastfeed
12:30 lunch
left at 1:00 for nap and right to sleep but did wake at 1:32 for a few minutes but back to sleep and is still sleeping so far

I am still concerned as you mentioned about the long period before bed especially if he wakes early in the morning and can't get back to sleep.  His first nap was short and so much earlier... then if his second nap is only an hour..I can't really get in another cat nap b/c it's too close to dinner time....he seems to do okay w/ the 4 hours ... although I can tell he's tired and I am rushing like a mad women through dinner and bath and bed.....I did notice a great difference the day he slept until 3:30....he did so much better:)  Like you said I will keepit like this a few days and work on A times.  he seems to be able to stay up longer is A time is low-key like in the stroller or car...if he has a lot of crawl time/ playpen or brother time...it is too much to be awake for 3 hours...but it's hard to get him to snack and eat a meal if the awake time is too short...and he is no longer eating at night and I don't want to introduce that since we just weaned him of the dream feed. I know it takes time but I appreciate this forum b/c you understand and can help!!!  Thank you!!

[Kellyjs]

Yk what hun? You're getting a good amount of sleep really overnight. It may be that he can't do more than 11hrs. Mine certainly couldn't.

We can look at shifting the day for you over the next week or so? So adding 15mins onto the first A time to bring BT a bit later thus lengthening your day. Hold it for a day or two then repeat. That would make BT 15mins later and hopefully wu in the morning later too. I'm recommending adding it on to the first A time because I still think that's a tad UT anyway and we really don't want to add any more to the last A time like you mentioned. Wdyt? Xx

[RhoGre]

I am so frustrated!  He woke up at 6:20 - I got him right up and fed him....he had a good morning....seemed tired at 8:40 and so I had him down by 8:56....he cried a little and only slept 20 minutes and won't go back to sleep and it's now 10:02.....could he be UT?  but it was about 2 hours and 45 minutes like we talked about!  The past two days have been rocky...some naps are good (1 hour and 10 minutes) and some are short...wake and cry and then sleep another cycle....why? all of a sudden?  It is stressful b/c I don't know when to feed him...I'll have to put him down early and skip lunch and give lunch after the nap and then give a cat nap?  so hard..Is he OT?  I am frustrated.

[Kellyjs]

I still very much doubt it's OT hun. Remember some bubbas are pulling up to 4hrs A at this age. Mine certainly was! The. A time we were looking at is still very much on the lower end of the scale.

Just concentrate on getting the bottles in hun, you can always do lunch later or miss it for the day. Feed the bottles at the regular intervals he's used to or being it a bit early if needs be. Just try and have a little. A between the E and S, even if it's a short nappy change.

We need to push that first. A as I mentioned previously hun. To 3hrs. Maybe try that tomorrow and see if that helps? I'm probably too late for the afternoon nap now but I'd keep close to 2hrs 45mims A if you can after that short nap. CN at this age probaby won't work so you need OT try and get that second nap in a good ish place to get to an EBT. Hth xx

[RhoGre]

Hello!  Thank you again for your reply.  We ended up having a nap at 11:50 yesterday until 1:20...he woke after 1 hour and 1/2....Then we did try a cat nap (b/c I hadn't read your reply yet) and he did sleep for 30 minutes at 4:30 to 5:00....night was fine.

Today he woke at 6:00 and I put him down at 9:24 and he went right to sleep but woke at 9:54 - he let out one cry but stayed asleep and then woke upset at 10:33....but since it was an hour and 9 minutes I got him up and it seemed as though he was done...then I put him to sleep just now at 1:46 so about 3 hours plus 10 minutes of A time...he fussed a little but is now sleeping...I felt as thought 1 hour was not that long this morning....so he may not be able to push more than what I gave him...it's hard to tell when he is tired b/c he is such a smiley baby (I am not complaining about that - he is cute!)....Should I go longer inbetween the naps? Bedtime still hasn't changed b/c that last A time is still so long and I can tell he would be a mess if I extended it at this point.

Thank you for your patience with me...I get worried that he will start night waking if he doesn't get enough food or sleep .

Also I did notice a tooth so I gave him some pain reliever yesterday during the day...I haven't since b/c he doesn't seem to be in pain like yesterday morning....he also has a runny nose so he may be sick or may be the tooth - there are so many factors it is hard to tell

[RhoGre]

Oh yeah, so even if UT he could still wake after 30 minutes?  I know that usually means OT but maybe UT too if the A time is too short? Thanks again.