8 month old suddenly naps too short

[RhoGre]

Hello!! What advice can you give me - my 8 month old is suddenly not napping well. Nothing has change...he goes to sleep by himself and sleeps through the night...I just weaned him from the dream feed and it went well.  The morning nap is barely one cycle and then the 2nd nap is bad b/c the first one is bad.  He was sleeping 2 cycles each nap and a cat nap...the cat nap was hit or miss so I deleted it a few days but give it when needed like I will today b/c both naps are bad.  He is crying right now b/c he can not get back to sleep.  I have never really gone in to help during naps but now if I do it distracts him and he screams louder and he will definitely not nap.  I am deciding not to go in and help him yet I feel bad that he is crying ..... but he is trying to fall asleep - he's not just wailing sitting up.  He is definitely more mobile.  Do  I just let him figure it out b/c that is how he has been...do I give naps closer together if he only sleeps one cycle?  I don't think he can make it on just one cycle in the morning.   Also his morning time is never consistent.  Some days he wakes at 7 and some days at 6....I usually consistently get him around 6:40 unless he is sleeping...so sometimes he has been awake already for 30 minutes but is quiet...but then he is tired by the time I get him breakfast at 8:10 (I breastfeed right when he wakes and the feed breakfast around 8:15 ,....but then he neds a few minutes before I put him down but I feel like he is overtired....hard to help him. 

I just feel guilty letting him cry the rest of the duration of the nap but he won't be hungry if I get him up and then I won't be able to give him snack and lunch before he gets over tired...and I want to make sure he has enough food to last a long nap and so that he won't wake at night....I hope all this makes sense....any advice?  I really like Baby Whisperer ideas...they do work ....I also don't want to start any accidental parenting! ... now he fell asleep after 20 minutes of crying...but if I would have gone in there I don't think he would have fallen asleep but I know she doesn't believe in letting the baby cry alone....is this a different case b/c he has the skills to fall asleep but is just overtired?  I know I ramble...thank you for you patience and advice....

[Kellyjs]

Hun, first of all we don't support leaving a LO to cry alone. Tracy believed it broke the bonds of trust between a LO and its caregiver. If he is awake and will not resettle, get him up and do some A until the next feed is due, please. He is not OT and if he were, he's asking for mummy, so please go to him. Can you do that for me please??

2hrs A time will definitely not be enough for an 8mo hun, that's why he's napping for only one sleep cycle, he's UT. 3, even 4hrs can be the norm at this age.

Could you post yesterday's routine for me in real time and we can see what we can do to work on it so it makes it easier on you both? In the meantime, I think we'd better work on re establishing his trust ok? It will get better, I promise. Please let me help you through this xx

Regaining Trust of Your Child

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[RhoGre]

Thank you for the reply....I really do feel awful and it is against my better judgement to let him cry...it is sort of mantra I'm trying to go to sleep cry...He is not used to my presences while sleeping b/c he goes to sleep on his own w/ no problem and he sleeps through the night.  He isn't fussy about playing in the play pen alone...he has started a little separation anxiety when I put him down to play and if I do chores..but I do reassure him rather than rescue him like the book says...he is then fine for about 20/30 minutes and I do check him and pop over to reassure him.  I do have a toddler also and it is hard to give as much attention to my 8 month old during naps as I did with my toddler at that age but I think I made myself a prop and I am afraid of doing that again.

Here was his schedule yesterday.  (I am confused b/c in the book it says for 6-9 months the wake time is 2-2 1/2 hours...I feel like depending on which book you are reading (I have all 3) it says slightly different things - I love what she says and it works...I just get easily confused and I have to admit I am learning to not be so rigid/ by the book...it is hard for me at times to read the situation...I'm a new mom I wouldn't know what I was doing with out her books!

My sweetie was up at 6:30 (or earlier - he was quiet and sitting up when I woke so I don't really know when he woke).

I got him at 6:45 and breastfeed him at 7:00
He then plays on the floor 1/2 hour and then has playpen time 20-30 minutes and a change of diaper
I fed him breakfast at 8:15
Then we have some book time
I left his room at 8:58 and he went right to sleep (I read him 2 books, kiss him, pray with him and put him down and leave)
He woke at 9:40 and cried a little (mantra) so I waited....he almost fell back asleep b/c he was quiet for about 10 minutes and looked asleep..then he started mantra...then quiet again...then mantra..he then sat up a few times but was fussy ...I got him up at 10:35 (I thought I should keep trying for the full length of the nap - I don't think I went in at all b/c my presence distracts him and he gets more upset and he just looks at me...again I haven't had to go in b/c I started teaching him to sleep from the beginning as the book suggests.
I breast fed at 11:10
he was in the car seat (we ran an errand) and then in his saucer (stand up toy thing)
12:20 I fed him lunch
I left his room at 12:53 for his 2nd nap...( I thought he was tired from not having a good nap - I would put him down later if his nap was good) He sat and played a little and then fell asleep at 1:08...he cried out at 1:38 and then fell asleep again... at 1:47 he cried out and slept until 2:34 but woke fussy...I got him up
he played in his pack-n-play
I fed him at 3:00
Activity time until 5:00 (I didn't even try a cat nap today b/c 2:30 wake time was close to dinner time at 5:00
5:00 feed until 5:30
5:30 - 6:10 play time on floor
6:10 bath
6:25 breastfeed
6:30 - left room  - right to sleep ...cried out once around 9:00 ...but did not wake
slept through night...he has really been sleeping through the night since 11 weeks

I guess I get confused b/c I know the book says if he wakes early from a nap two days in a row it could be a habit.  So I don't want to get him right up b/c I feel like I would be teaching him that he doesn't have to nap long. I don't want to have him cry in the crib...it seems like sometimes if I don't rush in he falls back asleep on his own...like he did in the 2nd nap...if I had gone in...he would have been looking for that and he doesn't rest with me there...my voice and hand distract him b/c he isn't used to it and I don't want to add that prop.

What do you suggest?
Thank you for your advice and patience with me

[RhoGre]

Just another note...I haven't let him CIO in the past....I worked with him for his whole life so far ...I just scaled the help back b/c I have a toddler that I can't leave alone..and my 8 month old does know how to sleep into the second cycle...it is just very inconsistent and sometimes I can tell he is tired and needs more sleep......
Thanks again for the help!

[RhoGre]

Oh yeah...how do I know if he needs a short nap in the morning and a longer one in the afternoon, or two long naps (1 1/2 hour) ...in the book it says some babies need a cat nap in the morning and a longer in the afternoon or one long nap...it's hard to tell....I did put him down at 10:00 one morning and he slept through for 1 hour and 17 minutes (but his wake time wasn't very active before that b/c we were doing errands) and his other nap that day was 1 hour and 7 minutes...is that enough?  I always think the naps should be longer like 1 1/2 hours each ...but I know his bed time is early but he seems to need that bed time b/c of the shorter naps and he does sleep until 6, 6:30 or 7:00 the next morning...each day is different.  I have tired wake to sleep.  He was doing 1 hour and 20 minute naps up until the last week or so.

Thanks again...I have a lot of thoughts/questions

[Kellyjs]

I've seen your posts hun, just need to feed my DD breakfast and I'll come back to you with a more detailed reply ok? Xx

[Kellyjs]

I know exactly what you mean, it's hard to tell isn't it? I too am a by the book person. I kept the exact right A times for DD and she short napped forever. It was only through joining this site and the encouragement from others on here that helped me push her times and hey presto, long naps! Took a while mind you, but we did get there. I'm sure it'll be the same for you hun. Remember the basis of Tracy's teachings is to watch our LO's, they are always telling us something. Whether it be by crying or short napping, one way or another they're saying something!

At 8mo I'd try for two longer naps hun. It will change, and probably soon as he nears the 2-1 transiitn in a few months. The A times increase pretty rapidly now. That's what the book says is when they near the 2-1, the A times are just getting so high that it becomes hard to fit in two decent naps in one day so we have to cap one of them to achieve a decent BT. As your A times are quite short, we'll look at increasing gradually and see where we end up ok? It will take patience and 8mo is a tricky time for sleep anyhow, but if you keep logging the days and any NW's, EW, or early wu from naps we'll be able to see a pattern.

Anything above an hour nap is considered restorative. It totally depends on an LO's sleep cycle whether they are capable of 1.5 hr long naps. Yours seems to have a 40mims one so I would expect nearer to 1hr 20 might be the norm. As you experienced earlier on it seems.

Ok, back to the A times. There is a large range of what's normal at this age. Mine was doing 4hrs 15mims first thing, so,e can't handle more than 3. So we'll just take it slowly ok?

Saying that, as 2hrs is much too short, how do you feel about jumping that first A straight to 2hrs 45 mins and holding for 2 days? Don't think it's too far off what you were doing as we aren't too sue what time he woke first thing.

I think your second nap was a little OT as he woke at the 30mims mark. 3.5 hrs A after a short nap might be a tad too long there. So I might reduce that back to 3hrs, asleep by 3hrs 15mins max.

Great BT there is seems. Good to know he can go 4hrs before BT without being too OT.

Can you see a pattern there now I've laid it out? You're expecting a good nap after around 2hrs A and he's goes to sleep really well for BT at 4 hrs A? This last one might be a tad too lomg in the long term but I think if we increase that first one, that will effectively reduce the last one anyway and space the day out better. So what do you think? Good plan? Xx

[RhoGre]

Hello!  Thank you so much for your post - very helpful.  I only just read it right now and so two days have passed and I tried what you mentioned first and I will try what you just mentioned tomorrow and for a few days.

Here were the last two days:

Thursday
Wake at 6:20 happy and I got him at 6:30 - breastfeed at 6:30
Activity - playpen, hold, crawl time, stroller for walk
8:30 breakfast
9:15 started nap - sleep by 9:20 - he cried out at 9:53 (but mantra so I waited so as not to rush in) and he fell back asleep and slept until 10:30 but woke cranky but I got him up b/c it was two cycles
10:30-11:00 Activity
11:00- breastfeed for snack
Activity - library, playpen, crawl play
12:40 - Lunch
Activity until 1:29
Nap at 1:29...woke at 2:06 cried a little but again I waited and he fell asleep for about 7 minutes and then was a little upset (not screaming just mantra so I waited)  he then sat up and i could tell he wasn't going to go back to sleep so I got him at 2:25
----I am confused here b/c it seems like he was OT b/c only 30 minutes sleep but he did go back to sleep but couldn't do it. Could this be UT b/c he didn't have long enough activity between naps?
3:30 breastfeed
Activity
5:10 dinner
6:15 breastfeed and put down for nap - slept through night until 6:10 (cried out at 10:00 but did not wake)

Friday (today)
6:10 wake but was quiet so I left him until 6:45
6:50 breastfeed
activity until 8:50
8:50 breakfast (I finish with breast and he was falling asleep so I knew he was tired)
9:15 started nap process - left him at 9:28 and he was right to sleep but woke at 10:00 and mantra for about 9 minutes - I didn't rush in- he fell back alseep for another cycle until 10:56 but woke cranky again
11:00 breastfeed
activity until 12:40
12:40 lunch
1:21 - left him for his 2nd nap (I wasn't sure - he didn't seem tired but I was thinking he may have been overtired from the day so I didn't want to risk it but ...) he played for about 4 minutes in the bed and then laid down and went to sleep but woke at 2:00 but went back to sleep for 10 minutes but then cried out and sat up ..I waited so as not to rush in and then I went in to reassure him at 2:39 - I laid him back down and spoke softly to him telling him it's still nap time...I left and he was a little upset but then sat up and was quiet...I got him at 2:50 b/c clearly he wasn't going back to sleep but he wasn't crying.
3:00 breast feed
Activity until 5:00 (he yawned at dinner)
5:00 dinner
6:20 breastfeed and bed - a few small cries to bed but right to sleep

I share your same concern that the time after the 2nd nap is too long...he sometimes gets a little fussy right after dinner (I don't want to move up the bed time as 6:30 is early enough and it works for him right now.  I mean sometimes it is 6:20 or 6:15 but it is mostly around 6:25.

I think I moved the A time too fast after reading your 1st post...I forgot about gradual changes.  I think today it was too long and then the A time between the naps is too short.  I was looking at my notes from my 1st child and he was having 3-4 hour wake time between the naps (I know they are different but there are some similarities).

I will try the 2 hours and 45 minutes in the morning as you suggested...it seems that even though he was in the dark for 30 minutes when he woke ....he was still awake and 3 hours was too much for him...
I will try 3 hours between the 2 naps??

I just feel for the little thing b/c he was napping so well and not waking at the end of the cycle ...it seems strange he goes from 3 good naps (two hour and 20 minute naps and a 40 minute cat nap to two poor naps like he is doing now....you are right the awake times moved rapidly that I didn't notice b/c 2 hours was his max and all of a sudden he can stay awake longer...

I like what you said about watching him like Tracey suggests...I sensed that today he wasn't tired when I put him down for the second nap but then he did fall asleep but woke after 30 minutes so OT or UT.....sometimes he doesn't seem tired but he sleeps for 2 cycles...and I don't want to wait too long b/c then he will be OT....it's hard b/c he is basically a very smilely baby...I am blessed and I do just want to do what is best for him as we all do w/ out children
Thank you for writing and helping me!!!!!!

[Kellyjs]

You're doing really well hun, remember that. It will take time to find out the right A time. I think your plan is a good one, let's stick with it for a few days and see if a pattern emerges. We can already see about that second A.

I do think it's more UT than OT between the naps. I'm more scared of UT as there's no chance of getting them back down as you've experienced. At least with OT there's a chance of resettling. And I can see what you're saying about the last A, it's just that's where I'm so cautious about OT. I much prefer for any OT to be in the day rather than at night!

Good luck today and keep me posted. I might be a bit patchy today and tomorrow as we're off for the wknd. But do keep the A times steady as we've said ok? Xx

[RhoGre]

Hello!  Thank you for your message.  Always helpful and encouraging.

Saturday went well.  Here was his schedule:

He was up at 6:30 not sure when exactly he woke but I got him at up.
6:50 breastfeed
8:30 breakfast
9:38 - 11:00 sleep w/ not wake up!  (His activity time was very low key before this nap b/c we were doing errands)
11:08 breastfeed
12:50 Lunch (sleepy when I finished lunch w/ breastfeeding but it was only 1:15..so I gave him a little awake time)
1:38 left room for 2nd nap...cried at 2:22..mantra, sat up but crying was mantra so I didn't go in...quiet at 2:41 and sleep until 3:30 but woke cranky
3:30 breastfeed
5:05 dinner
6:15 breastfeed and bed by 6:30
slept through night w/ no wake up until 6:30 except the clocks were turned back so it was really 5:30!!

Sunday
5:30 wake - got him at 6:00 he was a bit cranky
6:00 breastfeed
7:45 breakfast
8:28 left for his nap and 9:05 woke w/ mantra....was quiet then mantra ... was quiet .. then mantra..then sat up and quiet and some small cries..I got him at 9:50ish
11:00 breastfeed
Activity time - was very fussy (we were at church and first time he was not able to stay in nursery ..but I understood he was tired)
12:30 lunch
I left at 12:52 for his nap..sleep at 12:57 wake at 1:27  ..mantra..sat up...quiet and wake again at 2:16 I got him up then. 
3:00 breastfeed
5:20 dinner
6;30 breastfeed and bed
slept through the night until 5:30ish with one cry out at 8:00 but did not wake

Today
was up at 5:30ish w/ a bit of a mantra he got quiet for 2 ten minute periods but did not fall back asleep so i got him up at 6:30
6:38 breast
8:10 breaskfast
8:45-9:10 nap w/  no wake up but did wake a bit cranky but got him up b/c over an hour w/ not wake
activity time is low key b/c doing errands
11:00 breastfeed
12:30 lunch
left at 1:00 for nap and right to sleep but did wake at 1:32 for a few minutes but back to sleep and is still sleeping so far

I am still concerned as you mentioned about the long period before bed especially if he wakes early in the morning and can't get back to sleep.  His first nap was short and so much earlier... then if his second nap is only an hour..I can't really get in another cat nap b/c it's too close to dinner time....he seems to do okay w/ the 4 hours ... although I can tell he's tired and I am rushing like a mad women through dinner and bath and bed.....I did notice a great difference the day he slept until 3:30....he did so much better:)  Like you said I will keepit like this a few days and work on A times.  he seems to be able to stay up longer is A time is low-key like in the stroller or car...if he has a lot of crawl time/ playpen or brother time...it is too much to be awake for 3 hours...but it's hard to get him to snack and eat a meal if the awake time is too short...and he is no longer eating at night and I don't want to introduce that since we just weaned him of the dream feed. I know it takes time but I appreciate this forum b/c you understand and can help!!!  Thank you!!

[Kellyjs]

Yk what hun? You're getting a good amount of sleep really overnight. It may be that he can't do more than 11hrs. Mine certainly couldn't.

We can look at shifting the day for you over the next week or so? So adding 15mins onto the first A time to bring BT a bit later thus lengthening your day. Hold it for a day or two then repeat. That would make BT 15mins later and hopefully wu in the morning later too. I'm recommending adding it on to the first A time because I still think that's a tad UT anyway and we really don't want to add any more to the last A time like you mentioned. Wdyt? Xx

[RhoGre]

I am so frustrated!  He woke up at 6:20 - I got him right up and fed him....he had a good morning....seemed tired at 8:40 and so I had him down by 8:56....he cried a little and only slept 20 minutes and won't go back to sleep and it's now 10:02.....could he be UT?  but it was about 2 hours and 45 minutes like we talked about!  The past two days have been rocky...some naps are good (1 hour and 10 minutes) and some are short...wake and cry and then sleep another cycle....why? all of a sudden?  It is stressful b/c I don't know when to feed him...I'll have to put him down early and skip lunch and give lunch after the nap and then give a cat nap?  so hard..Is he OT?  I am frustrated.

[Kellyjs]

I still very much doubt it's OT hun. Remember some bubbas are pulling up to 4hrs A at this age. Mine certainly was! The. A time we were looking at is still very much on the lower end of the scale.

Just concentrate on getting the bottles in hun, you can always do lunch later or miss it for the day. Feed the bottles at the regular intervals he's used to or being it a bit early if needs be. Just try and have a little. A between the E and S, even if it's a short nappy change.

We need to push that first. A as I mentioned previously hun. To 3hrs. Maybe try that tomorrow and see if that helps? I'm probably too late for the afternoon nap now but I'd keep close to 2hrs 45mims A if you can after that short nap. CN at this age probaby won't work so you need OT try and get that second nap in a good ish place to get to an EBT. Hth xx

[RhoGre]

Hello!  Thank you again for your reply.  We ended up having a nap at 11:50 yesterday until 1:20...he woke after 1 hour and 1/2....Then we did try a cat nap (b/c I hadn't read your reply yet) and he did sleep for 30 minutes at 4:30 to 5:00....night was fine.

Today he woke at 6:00 and I put him down at 9:24 and he went right to sleep but woke at 9:54 - he let out one cry but stayed asleep and then woke upset at 10:33....but since it was an hour and 9 minutes I got him up and it seemed as though he was done...then I put him to sleep just now at 1:46 so about 3 hours plus 10 minutes of A time...he fussed a little but is now sleeping...I felt as thought 1 hour was not that long this morning....so he may not be able to push more than what I gave him...it's hard to tell when he is tired b/c he is such a smiley baby (I am not complaining about that - he is cute!)....Should I go longer inbetween the naps? Bedtime still hasn't changed b/c that last A time is still so long and I can tell he would be a mess if I extended it at this point.

Thank you for your patience with me...I get worried that he will start night waking if he doesn't get enough food or sleep .

Also I did notice a tooth so I gave him some pain reliever yesterday during the day...I haven't since b/c he doesn't seem to be in pain like yesterday morning....he also has a runny nose so he may be sick or may be the tooth - there are so many factors it is hard to tell

[RhoGre]

Oh yeah, so even if UT he could still wake after 30 minutes?  I know that usually means OT but maybe UT too if the A time is too short? Thanks again.

[RhoGre]

Ok so he woke now after 30 minutes....I just don't get it..he can't be UT if he is up at 6:00 and only had an hour and 8 minute nap can he? ...he wasn't doing this before the 3:2 transition...he wasn't waking after 30 minutes at all and now it seems like every nap he is waking early and so he isn't sleeping enough during the day...I feel as though I can't help him.....If I get him up now it is just so early.......so frustrating ...... Is this how it is for the next several months? ....it just isn't as easy as it sounds and is there any consistency?  I mean I try each day to get the right times, watch his cues and each day I get it wrong it seems and he suffers...I just feel bad.  Thanks again for the advice and help...I hope it starts to work soon...he is so tired.  Why are is naps shorter? only 1 hour and 8 min...he was consistently doing 1 hour and 20-30 minutes ... now it's barely an hour?  It does make a difference with him.....

[Kellyjs]

Hugs hun, it will get better, I promise. Good thing is you've noticed a tooth coming, that helps a lot. Medicate with ibuprofen as it works so much better than other meds. Runny nose always int  his house too when teething! It is such a tricky time atm, I've found it's only really consistent once they're on one nap and even then external factors can come into play. We just have to roll with what they throw at us. Do remember you're offering him the sleep hun, it's up to him to take it ok? We will figure this out.

30mims can be OT hun, but it can also be UT too at this age. It can be very difficult to tell. Discomfort from the teething could also be a factor too.

1hr 10mins naps can also signal OT for some. I'm wondering if 3hrs 25mins A first thing is too much for him? How about tomorrow we bring that right back to being asleep at 3hrs A? I would actually keep the second A as is for now and let's just work on getting. That first nap back to a decent length xx

[RhoGre]

Hello - same problem today...could 3 hours be too much in the morning?  He went to sleep at 9:30 and has woken up 2 times already...and it is 10:15 - he has never done that.  I am really confused.  He didn't even seem tired but obviously he is right?

[Kellyjs]

Waking up twice in 45mins could definitely be discomfort hun, did you medicate before the nap at all? Xx

[RhoGre]

Hello.  So he fell asleep again for 30 minutes until 11.  I got him up nursed him and then gave him medication...I will check if it is IBP.  So I put him down at 1:00 (2 hours later b/c I figured he was tired and had a rough first nap  (not even an hour total)).  But he was active and trying to stand so I took him out and gave him some more A time and just put him down...a bit of mantra but now quiet.  I hope he sleeps a good nap b/c he needs it. 

I waited 3 hours this morning...he woke at 6:30 and I left at 9:34 ....maybe I should start the wind down 15 minutes earlier?  It is just so confusing...just now he was happy and playing..he doesn't even seem tired or in pain but put him in the bed and he wakes after 30 minutes....I know it will get better but I have to calm down myself....I guess I just don't want other problems to start like night waking...he did wake two times last night but put himself back to sleep that is good I just don't want bad habits.....how do you just roll with it? Any advice for that...thanks for your posts..

[RhoGre]

Thanks for the advice on: I'm giving him the opportunity - He has to take it.  I am going to repeat that to myself.  I just don't want bad habits to form...now he woke again after 30 minutes...sat up and mantra for a few and then got quiet for 10 minutes and then started mantra again.....he is active now sitting up and rolling....he just wasn't doing this...it seems no matter what I do...he is obviously tired...I guess he has to deal with it?  I can't force him to sleep and it's too late in the day for another nap.....he is getting about 12 hours at nights a little less...and barely 11/2 hours during the day for the last few days....I would think this is not enough day sleep.....anyway tomorrow is another day ...... I just have no confidence in what I am doing or reading his signs

[Kellyjs]

You're still getting a good amount of sleep overall hun. 12hrs ONS and 1.5hrs during the day isn't too far off what my DD was having at that age which was 10.5-11hrs ONS and 1 x 1.5hr nap and 1 x 45mims one.

I think teething is still at play here tbh. I also think 2hrs A after a hour long nap still won't be enough. An hour nap is considered restorative so he should be able to go close to the usual A time if a tiny bit less xx

[RhoGre]

Ok...that makes sense...today he woke at 5:40 and I got him at 6:15....put him down at 8:20 and slept for 45 then woke but did mantra and then quiet and then woke again...he is doing mantra now but I am doing to get him up.

Do I try to put him back to sleep or just get up even if short nap?  I have not had to do PUPD w/ him...so I don't want to start going in and staying with him and doing PUPD b/c he wont know what I am doing...I have tried to stay w/ him a few times and he gets very distracted and won't sleep...most of the time he wakes and does mantra b/c he can do it on his own and I just get him if he is upset...but am I teaching him to sleep short naps?  I don't want to start changing the rules on him.....you know?

Thanks

[RhoGre]

So I don't get why he wakes and then sleeps an extra 10 and then can't stay asleep.  Today he woke at 6:20 and I put him down at 8:54...about 2.75 hours later and he fell right asleep no problem...but woke one cycle later and then slept another 6-10 minutes and now is just mantra noises in bed..not upset....but if I wait 3 hours...too long and we get the short naps....Yesterday was the same thing and the afternoon nap was 30 minutes wake and then 30 minutes....not the best....so frustrating b/c I never know what to do...it feels like a guessing game everyday and it is hard to plan what to do with him and my toddler....if he wakes early the whole day changes....I know I have to go with it but I never know what to expect.....

[RhoGre]

am I teaching him short naps if I get him up early?  I don't want to teach him he only has to sleep for a short time but again....staying in there is no good...it turns into a game...I pat him...he looks up and rolls..I roll him and it goes on and on and there is no hope of sleep..he really either does it on his own or not but lately....he isn't doing it for some reason.......

[trimbler]

Hey there, I'm sorry I don't have much time now but have read through your posts and can offer (((hugs))), fresh eyes and a few initial thoughts

Have you considered fixing the time of the first nap? So, say, get him up at 6.30am even if he woke earlier or you have to wake him, then perhaps try to make the first A time as low-key as you can, aiming for asleep at 9.30. We had some success (still do) going out even for a small errand just before, be home around 10mins before the desired sleep time, or whatever you think would work. Hopefully his body clock may start to realise what to do... If that seems too long, try nap at 9.25, or even 9.20 - mine would be quite sensitive to 5min changes!

Try considering that down time in the cot when he's awake but relatively calm, as worth half A time - so if he plays around in his cot for 30mins, trying but failing to get back to sleep, then consider it as 15mins A time - so if for example you want to aim for 3h for the next A time, then he'll need to be up another 2h45 from when you get him up, or 3h15 from when he actually woke, iyswim? If you feel he would do 3h after a good nap but want to shorten it after a bad nap, perhaps you'd aim for an effective A time of 2h45 instead, which, with the 30mins down time in cot, would mean an extra 2h30 after getting up, or 3h after he actually woke. Does that make sense?

Have to dash, wanted to insert sticky on wi/wo for you, remind me if I forget!

[RhoGre]

Thank you - I can try that...it is so inconsistent...His first nap seems to work best at about 2 hours later...anything more he is too overtired...but he had a good morning nap and then slept one cycle and tried to sleep for a bit w/ mantra and then can't do it but clearly he is tired and now it's a long wake time until bed and he can do that very well....oh well...it actually seems impossible right now and I am just so baffled that he was doing so well and I really do not change anything and now he is inconsistent and not sleeping during the day as well and clearly he needs it....he is waking at night now but is putting himself back to sleep but again clearly over tired......I do not know what to do and I don't want to keep playing with times b/c I tired to keep him up longer and he was a wreck.....I am doing about 2.5 hours in the morning b/c some of that time is calm in the bed before I get him and then about 3 between the naps....If I push him I get 30 minute segments .....it's a bit hard to read him.......

I'll keep working on it but it doesn't seem as easy as the book makes it seem....he has been on EASY his whole life and I am extending the times and doing what I can.....I may try a cat nap today b/c how can he go from 127 to 630 for bed?   but he woke at 9:37 (put him down at 8:23 b/c he was up at 5:40 and then slept from 6-610) for first nap and then I put him down at 1245 for nap b/c he was cranky.....then he doesn't sleep.....what can I do?  He just wasn't doing this before...it's frustrating....I am going to try the wake to sleep .....How long does it take to get back to a routine?  All the examples in the book are examples of very extreme cases which is not my case.......

[trimbler]

I was just thinking that the Saturday before last (?) he did a great first nap on 3h low-key A time, so we know he can do it - but was that an exception? I know some people prefer to work with fixed A times and I preferred to have fixed 'get up' times (since you can't really fix actual WU), at least the first nap was fixed here due to preschool run. But either way I think you'll probably need to try and fix something - you choose which. So either just go and get him up when he wakes in the morning and start the fixed A time then, or let him chatter or whatever until your decided 'up' time and fix the first nap. He often seems to wake around 6.30 so I just suggested that as a start, but perhaps you'd prefer to start having a fixed first nap at 9 or 9.15 rather than 9.30, if you're worried about OT when he wakes much earlier? You could then push that forward gradually over time. Use the 'half A time' rule to gauge what his 'effective' A times between naps have been over the last few days if you can, that might be a better measure to use rather than the actual times between waking and sleeping, you might begin to see patterns... Just trying to give you a new approach to try, if you want to

I know it's hard when they seem to be doing great on one thing and then suddenly it changes and you don't know why - they do just change, because they're growing and developing all the time, but it does get a bit easier when there are fewer naps, and things tend to change at a slower rate as they get older.

I would persist in giving him the chance to go back to sleep after a short nap, as you know sometimes he will, and hopefully with the right routine tweaks he'll manage that more and more like he used to. I'll just get that wi/wo link if I can find it, you might find it helpful... Getting back on track using Walk In/Walk Out (WI/WO)

[RhoGre]

Thank you I will try those things you mentioned.  I had never heard of the WI/WO method....thank you.  Yesterday was much better with a 2 hours/2.25 hour wake time in the morning and he barely can do three hours in between the naps...so I am sticking to that for now...2.25 hours in the morning for A time and 3 hours roughly between the naps...he is napping now but I just put him down b/c he was fussy at the 3 hour mark....we will see....thank you for your advice...I have been using the 1/2 rule for when he is in the bed cooing...thank you

[trimbler]

We do a lot of wi/wo with our DD, some say it's really for older babies/toddlers, but I'm sure we did it at 8mo... Sometimes I'll go in and sit her back down, give her pink bunny and lay my hand on her for a few seconds, by which time she'll start crying again and push me away, she just doesn't want me distracting her when she's trying to go back to sleep and then she settles just fine as soon as I'm out the door It's about giving the reassurance that you're there, that you hear him, that he doesn't need you to get back to sleep (since he can already do that himself) but if there's a problem then you'll know because you've gone in to check. And of course you're not stuck in there so your toddler isn't alone for too long

Really glad to hear things were better the other day Do let us know how it's going and whenever you want us to take another look at his routine