9 month old EW, NW, 2-1 and daytime savings time

[Bella89]

Hi,
my 9 month old is giving me what he's got lately:( We were almost on track when the time changed.
He used to sleep from 8pm to 7am. He is not an independent sleeper (sometimes he knows how to fall asleep on his own). Now, after time change it's a disaster:/

He is constantly standing up when I try to put him down. When he does, I lay him back down over and over. Without putting up though.
His new thing is, when I try not to come, he would throw his teddy out of the crib, then his paci. And screams at me until I pick them up again.
He cannot sleep without a pacifier. And I seriously think of just throwing it out.

He sleeps around 2.5h a day. Sometimes I manage to put him down twice, but that happens less and less.
He wakes up 4:30 (his 5:30 before the time change) and is up until 6. Then falls asleep and WU 8am. That is throwing our whole day out:(

WU 7:00 I would assome that should be our normal WU
7:15 bottle
8:30 breakfast
11-12:30 or 1 S
1:00 bottle
2:30 dinner
4:30 half an hour nap or none
5:00 supper
7:00 bottle and BT
8:00 asleep
Mornings are the worst. During the night he can wake up 2 times, but in the morning I just can't put him down:(

I think I got lost... I am trying to hold on to 2 naps as long as I can, because he is only 9 months. He can go 4h A time without a blink.
I don't know how to put him down anymore.
I hold him in my arms on the chair with paci in for a while and put him in the crib half asleep. I do it for 2 weeks now and I think It came as AP because I didn't know what to do:(
How can I teach him how to fall asleep on his own? Do I lay him down everytime he stands up? I talk to him, pat his back but I don't think he understands the invitation to lay down yet.
Paci is another question, but I will start the topic in prop section.
I think my general question is, how can I go back to the times when I was putting him down, kiss and walk away ? (I know it's not possible, but how can I make it better).

[Kellyjs]

Do you want to keep this thread and I lock the other one we're working on hun? Could be a good idea to start afresh? Xx

[Bella89]

Great idea!!
I don't know what I'm doing anymore

[Kellyjs]

No worries hun, we can just start from the beginning this way can't we? 

I'll be back in a bit when I put DD down for her nap xx

[Kellyjs]

Ok, I'm back sorry this afternoon has run away with me!

I've re read our old thread. I do think we're going have to go back to square one and nip this silly wu in the morning out.

I do still think part of this is developmental. It's typical kids stuff, 'if I do this, what will mummy do'. Actually quite a big leap in cause and effect.

That being said, we need to start again with the IS. As it's been a little while since he was an independent sleeper we could use gradual withdrawal? Or if you prefer a modified wi/wo and cut the holding in the chair out altogether, so completely switch things up. You know him best and what you think will be best for you both. I'll post a link about it in a bit.

I know you posted a routine below and that's what you're aiming for but the last few days haven't been like that have they?

I wonder if you keep him in bed as long as possible in the morning like you have been doing and pick a method you're comfortable with using be it wi/wo or sitting int  he chair beside his bed, not making eye contact and repeating your sleep phrase over and over until it's time to wake up. Then make a big song and dance about the actual wu time and happy to see him etc now it's morning. Then I would count 4hrs from there and aim to have the nap then. Cap at 1.5hrs then do another nap 3.5hrs later for your 30mins as per usual, then that should leave 3hrs A to BT like you posted below.

The routine will change over the coming weeks, we just need to sort out this EW first as I think that CN in the morning is upsetting things for you a bit. Then we'll look at pushing that first A once the WU's return to normal.

Above all, over the next couple of weeks you must be consistent. Don't back down, that shows mixed signals and is actually unfair on him too. This part is really important ok? Let him know you mean business. There will be crying, but you are there, just soothing him a little different than he's used to. And he will get used to it, it will get better, then it might regress after the 3rd day, then it will get much better again.

I'm up for it if you are? Virtually holding your hand through it all xx

Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

[Bella89]

Thank you so much for your help. I feel bad enough that someone with LO spends so much time on my problems:(

I read WI/WO post you send a link to and even did some ironing to think this through. This is what I need!!
He was an independent sleeper up until 2 months ago. Then all the changes came. I think It will work, because:
1. When he sees me he is crying on higher tones, more
2. He seems to be mantra crying and fussing when I'm not in the room, but when I come in wants to play or starts to cry
3. Naps and BT go better than NW and EW. We still have the cot in our bedroom with no chance of getting him out until March:/ When he wakes in the morning and sees us starts to call us and cry
I think NW and EW will be the worst.

I am ready! I did not hold him to sleep today, explained that I will not pick up things if he throws them, and I didn't. I did not pick him up if he wasn't histerical and did not lay him down. I just talked and left the rom when was calm. I think that was a small step for today and I did good:)

So what I am doing is, I am kneeing besides the crib and talk to him and pat the pillow, cover his stuffed donkey and say that the donkey needs to sleep to. When he is calm I leave the room. 2 times he fell asleep withut me in the room, once with me (looked at me and rolled over).

I thought throwing paci is the sign that I have to wean it. It made me angry at that small rubber thing. I tried to put him down for the nap without it the first time. He threw it out and I didn't pick it up. He fell asleep with some fussing when I left the room. I thought - that went well.
So for his second nap I did similar, but he didn't stop crying when I entered the room to settle him. It got worse. It got so bad he couldn't catch a breath for a while. That happened the first time in his life. I got scared. I settled him with paci when he was calm enough to take it. For his BT I gave him paci ( I started giving it to his hands instead of mouth for 3 days now) when he clearly needed it. I think I should hold on to pacifier until I sort other things out. That is too much for him and me.

Today:
4:30-6:00 he was cheerful, then was fussing, pooped, cried when I was changing a diaper, talked some more and fell asleep
8:00 WU and get dressed
8:30 Bottle
9:45 breakfast
12:15 nap until 1:30
1:45 bottle
A long walk in the stroller
3:20 dinner ate a lot
4:30 started to put him down 5:00 was asleep
5:00-5:30 second nap
5:30 tried to give him solids but refused, ate 7 oz of formula instead
7:00 tried solids, he refused, tried bottle and he refussed as well
7:00 BT routine
7:30 in the crib, I started calming him down kneeing beside the crib
8:00 he was asleep

His eating suffers too. I don't have enough time in the afternoon for both solids and formula:/Also, I think he ate too early for BT (5:30)
WDYT?

[Kellyjs]

Don't worry about me, that's what I'm here for 

Hun, this is amazing, go you! Absolutely perfect using your words too. I still say that to DD that her bunny needs to sleep, so be quiet 

Ok, routine wise, this looks good but I think we have room to make your day a little longer. Classic transitions. It may be that he's just not capable of 12hrs ONS, hence the EW.

I wonder if we push that first A another 15mins and keep all the others the same? It might mean he'll sleep a tad longer, perhaps 1.5hrs and that would make your overall day 12.5hrs? Wdyt?

It does get a bit tricky trying to fit everything in doesn't it wrt feeds. Here's what I suggest, let me know if you think it's doable?

8:00 wu
8:30 bottle
9:30 breakfast
12:00/15 bottle (I know this is early but only very slightly. Do a little A in between feed and pd for...)
12:30-2:00 Nap 1
2:15 light lunch
4:00 bottle
4:45 dinner
5:30-6:00 Nap 2
8:00 BT routine followed by bottle
8:30 BT (asleep by)
 
Does that work ok? I'm not too sure how many bottles he's having atm? Xx

[Bella89]

Hi,
I would like for him to have 4 bottles, but I don't think he will have it. 3 meals+3 bottles is difficult enough for me to fit in. Especially that if the meals are too close to each other he would not even take a sip:/

This is our day so far
6:30 WU (later my DH told me that he was awake 5:30, but he woke me up 6:30)
7:15 bottle
9:00 breakfast
10:15 - 12:30 (I won't lie, I was so busy cleaning up and cooking that I forgot to wake him sooner:)
1:00 bottle
2:00 dinner
4:00 bottle -
5:15 asleep- still is

All this time I did WI/WO. In the morning it went super easy, 1WI. In the afternoon 3WIns and I had to help him lay down, he was a little OT I think:/
Also, Our main meal is dinner around 1.Lately, he would have around 20oz of formula. He enjoys meals much more. I know milk should be the main source of nutrition, but I don't think I can stop him, now that he likes t hold his own food:/

What do you think?
Days are so different lately, because of different WU:/

[Kellyjs]

Keep with the milk hun, please or else he will start waking at night for more feeds as milk is much more calorie dense than solids. It is lovely when they enjoy it so much, but we must keep their intake up it's important. For at least 3mths then you can go crazy with the solids ok?

Did you cap that second nap hun? Yes, I would've probably pd a bit sooner for that second nap and tried for a slightly EBT today. We do have to be careful about too much day sleep now as well. No problem today about the first nap, I would've done the same  .

I would keep pushing that first A hun. We need to get it closer to 11am even with a 5.30am wu to help discourage this. Technically I think that first nap is still robbing him of night sleep and he's catching up during the day. However, this works for some families that want a late BT and early start so they can spend time with them before and after work etc. So it's totally up to you? He is getting a good amount of sleep in 24hrs atm with what you've done today.

Amazing news about the wi/wo, you must be so proud of yourself! I am, if that doesn't sound too condescending    xx

[Bella89]

Ha ha not at all. This is what I need right now, you know:) Especially that I need to do this on my own. DH has so much work lately that I feel guilty about DS waking at night so much. I did prepare super comfy couch for DH to sleep tonight. He is so tired, poor thing.

Yes, I know. As much milk as I can. I skip solids If I have to to get him to drink his bottle.

So yes, I did cap 2nd nap 5:15-5:50. I have to say, he was confused first 45 min about getting up. I think I have to move that nap closer to 4, 4:30. At 5, when it's dark outside maybe he is expecting it to be BT?

You are right. I am sure that first nap is too long. He never slept that long, and he is yawning the whole morning, like he didn't slept enough and needs to make up for it.

Yeah, I need to work on it being closer to 11, he can then sleep till 12:30 and 2nd could be around 4:30. That would work. Wdyt?

Thank you so much,
Isabella

[Kellyjs]

That sounds perfect in an ideal world! Only I know there's not much of that when they have their own agenda   . You're doing so great, it really is amazing how well he's settling again. Yep, I think I'd be confused about waking up in the dark too! Might be like that for a little while though when it gets darker in the evening and his late CN.

Fwiw I had a terrible time with DD about a year ago I think. DH was working loads and I felt completely on my own and down in the dumps. DD wasn't conforming to any routine, EW, NW's, generally being awful and I was in tears. If it wasn't for this place I'd have lost it I'm sure. Anyway, one day I thought, sod it! And went to go and see friends an hour away in the car. Think she'd only and one half hour nap all day, prepared myself for the worst that night. Got myself a big, fat glass of wine, got to bed early, felt more positive after seeing friends, and no bloody wu and a 7am lie in, I couldn't believe it! Went back to normal with the grumpiness the next day for her, but at least I was feeling better in myself. Sometimes, we just have to throw the rule book out the window and do something for ourselves  xx

[Bella89]

Ha ha i think she got it and gave mommy a break :p

That's exactly what I think. I am trying to have a routine, but that's a great word for it. Routine not a schedule. I'm doing my best. I can honestly say that. But that's tday. Tomorrow I will probably feel like I don't read to him enough or that I don't engage him in more games that form his IQ level:p Oh yeah, I go crazy like that sometimes.But I quickly become resonable and love my baby for his flirty attitude and love for adventure:)

When I think about it, now that you said it, it is really not that bad for us. We do have NW (like today 1,5h long), but then he wakes at 5:30 and lays down calmly for an hour to let me sleep

Our first nap was 10:45 till 12:15. It's 4 pm and he is trying to settle. I hope It will go well

How is it right now with your DD?

[Kellyjs]

This is brilliant, I'm so glad you're feeling more positive if nothing else  .

First nap was great yay, hope the second nap was ok. You have got a routine, and it is flexible, that's the beauty of easy. Just concentrate on the things that are going well like the self settling. The second nap will get harder as we get further down the 2-1, but that first one is going great and so much better than before and less stressful for you too!

Argh and I totally feel your pain about the mumma guilt, I'm afraid that comes with having a child. Probably today I'll feel like I have fed DD well enough as we are at my parents and they spoil her  . Or that I haven't given her enough attention, or that I should let her have the time with her grandparents and keep out the way.... See, you're not the only one!!!!  xx

[Bella89]

The second nap was great, I gave him 1 hour since 1st nap was shorter than usual. He made it till 8 no problem, self-settled really fast. I felt like I hit that magic UT/OT window;] He slept through the night, until 5.30. He woke up 2 times but self settled and I didn't even had to come I am so happy!

At 6 he heard me go to the bathroom and that was the end of it. If he doesn't hear me, he would just lay by himself talking to his donkey. I think that gives him strenght for longer first A time. Today I had to put him down for his first nap at 9:45 I plan to give him until 11:30. Ha! Just when it starts to go smoothly he messes with me:)

Thank you so much for your support!

[Kellyjs]

My pleasure hun, it's really good to hear you're feeling better, I can tell by your posts!  xx