Feeling Hopeless with 6 month old's sleep!

[eogan0622]

Hi All,

I've posted on a few boards here and there and I'm really struggling with my DD's sleep.  She's 6 months old and a little after she turned 5 months old, we started PU/PD with *some* success- at least we have a unified way to handle NW and 30 min wake ups.  For awhile, things were looking up and she was able to put herself back to sleep after 30 min wake ups during naps, and didn't take much to calm, mostly we were able to do shush/pat and occasionally 1-3 PU/PD.  As she has gotten older, I've been extending her A times but she is still having NWs and pretty much every other day she has at least one nap that needs me to go in and help her get back down.  I'm feeling SO FRUSTRATED and like I've lost any instincts I used to have about her needs.  We are on a 4 hour EASY, but lately she's been starving, so I've been feeding her a little more frequently.  A couple things to note:

1) No teeth yet but showing some signs of teething
2) The past 2 days has completely refused a bottle from DH (he had been putting her to bed 3-4 nights/week)
3) We are totally deep in the 3:2 nap transition- most days are 2 naps but probably every 2 days we have to do the CN due to a short first or second nap
4) She was waking up a few times at night and we were only feeding her if she got up after 2am...but since she's been so hungry I've been feeding her 2x/night- usually around 1230 and again 430.
5) We have been doing some solids- oatmeal in the AM and fruits.veg in the afternoon- she really doesn't consume much of either.

Here's a sample EASY (from yesterday)
7:30: WU
7:50: E (just a little)
9:00: E (a little more- basically a half feed + half feed between the two)
10:30-11:40: S (30 min wake up, was able to get back down)
11:40: E
2:10: E (both full feeds, hungry!)
2:30-3:40: S (30 min wake up, was able to get back down)
5:30: E (2 oz from bottle- refused from DH)
6:30: bath.bedtime routine
6:50: E (full feed) and bedtime

NW: 1:15am/5:20AM- fed both times

Today:
7:15: WU
8:00: E (full feed)
10:30-11:40: S (no wake up)
12:00: E
2:35-3:05: S (tried to get back down for 45 minutes, was not having it, got up at 3:50)
4:00: E

....I'm going to try for a CN in a little while but I'm feeling beside myself about the early wakings from naps and the continued night wakings! I thought things were going to mellow out and I just can't figure this out.  I'm extended A times, I've decreased A times, I've done shush/pat, PU/PD, etc etc etc etc....I'm feeling like such a failure!

Any advice is greatly appreciated

[nevinsmama]

Hi there, I am so sorry you haven't had a response yet. Things will get better. I have not-fond memories of the 3-2 transition, it is a tricky time for sure! You will get there!

OK, WRT routine, I would make sure you give each adjustment time to settle in. I would go with, say a 2,5 hour A time and stick with that for 3-5 days. If a nap is less than an hour, you might trim 20 minutes off the next A.

You mentioned teeth, are you offering any form of relief from that ( tablets, gel whatever you are comfortable with)?

I also wonder if LO is getting some new skills that are making sleep a challenge at this time. Any pulling up, crawling, cruising etc?? If so, try to stay consistent and just ride it out, developmental stuff can send sleep out the window!

Hang in there, most LOs will naturally lengthen their naps around this age and there really is only so much we can do with A times and W2S and all that good stuff, sometimes it just takes letting LO mature a bit and things will settle some more. Hope this helps and keep us posted!

[eogan0622]

Thanks for the support.  I'm feeling more hopeless than ever!  It seems like the past couple weeks, as I was pushing her A time to 3 hours, she just got so OT. My gut tells me it's too much for her.  So this week I'm trying to back off A times a little with hops that she can catch up and then I'll work toward extending them again.  The past 2 days have been a mess.

Monday:
5:45: WU (our cut off is 6:30, so I treated it like a NW)
555: E, put back down- never went back to sleep
6:30: Up for the day
8:00: PD awake after 10 min WD
8:10-9:25: S
9:35: E
11:40: E (had only taken a few minutes at 9:35 and was hungry)
11:50: PD awake after 10 min WD
12-12:30: S - went in at 12:40-1:05 and tried PU/PD and shush/pat but no success- got up at 1:05
2:10: E
2:30: PD awake after 10 min WD
2:40-4:10: S- did PU/PD 3:10-3:25
5:20: E
6:00: Bath/Bedtime routine
6:15: E
6:30-6:20a: S (NW: 12:15 and 4:00 to eat)

Tuesday:
6:20: woke up, left in crib until 6:30
6:30: Up for the day
6:45: E (only for 3 mins not very hungry)
8:10-8:25: S in stroller (NEVER does this- could not get her to stay awake )
8:40: E
9:15: PD for nap - decided to extend a little from stroller snooze
9:15-9:45: PU/PD, shush pat, tried everything- NO SLEEP
9:45: got up
10:30: E
1050-12:10: S - woke up at 30 min mark and did 15 mins PU/PD
1:45: E
2:30-3:00: S- tried PU/PD etc from 300-330 with no success- was trying to latch on to my arm/chin/face
3:30: E
5:30: bathtime/bedtime routine
5:45: E
6:00: bed

I feel like I can't catch a break with these 30 min wake ups, plus I'm up EVERY night for 2 feedings.  I feel like I can't get it together.  I think shes so over tired but I just can't seem to fix this!  PLEASE HELP!

[lily_layne]

(((hugs))) It's hard being up in the night and exhaustion doesn't make the days easier. Does it help to know that 2 NFs is within the normal range for that age.

I agree that a 2.5 hour A time may work better. I think I mentioned it on one of your other threads, but since you're feeling so stressed about it all (I've had that feeling too) I think set naps might help. I tied myself in knots trying to figure out the right A times with DD and it was so exhausting. With DS, I went to a set nap routine posted by someone on here (she'd gotten from a book) and it worked wonderfully. It was:
WU: 630/7
S: 930-11 (I woke if needed)
S: 130-3 (or as long as he slept)
CN if second nap was short. If not, when transitioning from 3-2, I did BT 3 hrs from the end of the second nap.
BT: 630/7
I think the reason this works so well (I know lots of mamas who do similar) is that it works with an LOs body clock. Most LOs are ready to nap around 9/930 and 1/130. I didn't know this with DD and her pm nap was usually around 2/230 and was rarely long. I am sure it was because it was out of sync with her sleep rhythms. I have been rereading BWSAYP and Tracy does recommend the am nap be set around 9/930.

If he woke early or had a short nap, I did the next nap 15 minutes sooner and EBT if both naps were a bust.

Have you ever tried a top-up feed before naps? DS preferred feeding before naps rather than when he woke.

[eogan0622]

Thank you for the support.  It does help to know that NF are common at this age still.  She actually had a great night last night.  But the naps are still killing me. Part of it is that I don't know how to handle the 30 min wake up anymore. It ends up going something like this:

30 minutes in- wakes up CRYING.  Not fussing like she used to, but screaming crying.  I usually wait 2 minutes or so and then go in and try to calm in her crib with shush/pat.  When she sleeps, she sleeps on her belly or side.  But when she's crying like this she's on her back.  So I try to put a hand on her belly or chest.  She pushes it away.  I try to move her to her side.  She freaks out and rolls back to her back.  Sometimes my presences and shushing is enough to stop the crying but then she's just awake, laying there, looking at me from her back.  I can't coax her onto her side or belly and I can't pat her on the belly...So then she's "calm" so I don't know what to do!  I head to the door, and she starts crying.  If she's really crying hard, I PU and PD as soon as she stops and try to start back up with shush pat but it's the same over and over.  She'll have moments of not crying but shes also not fussing in these moments so I don't know if my presence is more of a distraction for her?  And I just dont' know how long to continue this.  If I leave the room she cries and it's not just fussy cry, it's an intense scream cry. So then I feel like I try these methods for 30 mins or so and then eventually put her down, and go back in and let her get up from the nap.  PU/PD was working a few weeks ago but now nothing seems to work!

I will certainly try set nap schedule. I'm aiming for 2.5 hrs this week to see if I can get her back on track. 

Thanks!

[lily_layne]

Have you tried rocking her back to sleep or do you feel that will ruin independent sleep? If you need a break, it's perfectly OK to just get her up and go on with your day when she wakes at 30 minutes.

With the set naps, there is always a bit of flexibility but try to stick as close as you can to the routine for the first week or so. I believe the book recommends waking LO at 1h15 for the first nap so they are tired enough for the second nap. I am trying to decide if resettling with rocking while you establish the routine will help or hinder...I will think on it.

[eogan0622]

Hi- sorry for the late reply!

I'm not really wanting to rock her back to sleep- we are sometimes successful getting her back down and other times not so much and we just have to get her up and back up her A time before next nap.  The past few days she has not made it past 30 minutes for her first nap which has totally thrown off the whole day.  We are sticking with 2.5 hr A time from here going forward (we have been doing a little less before 1st nap).  I think I am going to give set naps a try this week but I have a couple questions-

If she gets up before 630, I have been leaving her in her crib until then. If she gets up before 6, I usually feed her and put her back down (treat it like a nightwaking).  But with set naps, if she wakes at 6 and then doesn't go back down and I get her up for good at 6:30, do I stick with 9 for the 1st nap?  Is that the whole idea of the set naps, to get their bodies used to sleeping at the same predictable times each day?  I get that if the first nap is short, to cut the second A time a little bit.  And I know you mentioned that even though the last A between 2nd nap and BT seems long it works- I guess I'm just nervous if she doesn't have a good nap, or gets up at 2:30 from 2nd nap- keeping her up 4+ hours feels aggressive....


Lastly, I'm really struggling with which point to go in and try to help her get back to sleeep- sometimes she cries at 30 mins and if I give her 5-10 mins she can get herself back down.  But sometimes she wakes up SCREAMING and I can't wait that long to go to her- any advice in terms of waiting it out?  Is consistency in response time key here?

Thanks!

[lily_layne]

If she gets up before 630, I have been leaving her in her crib until then. If she gets up before 6, I usually feed her and put her back down (treat it like a nightwaking). 

That's exactly what I did. Sometimes DS woke just before 6 and didn't get back to sleep until just before 7, in which case, I let him sleep until 7:30 but kept the first nap at the same time.

Is that the whole idea of the set naps, to get their bodies used to sleeping at the same predictable times each day?

Yes. I couldn't figure out how it works, but it does - some (rare) days DS slept almost an hour later in the morning and still took his am nap at the usual time. I found that 10/15 minutes more or less of A time before the pm nap didn't make a difference but I definitely did bring it earlier if the first nap was really short.

If she gets up before 6, I usually feed her and put her back down (treat it like a nightwaking).  But with set naps, if she wakes at 6 and then doesn't go back down and I get her up for good at 6:30, do I stick with 9 for the 1st nap?

If 9 is the nap time you are aiming for, then technically yes but I always left a bit of wiggle room. You could do a bit earlier (asleep by 845 if you feel she's really tired and won't make it until 9). With DS, I found if I put him down a bit earlier, he often slept longer so he often ended up sleeping until close to when I was planning on that nap ending anyway.

If you feel that last A is too long to start, you could do BT earlier. So if she's up at 230 you could aim to have her sleeping by 630 and see what happens.

any advice in terms of waiting it out?  Is consistency in response time key here?

I struggled with the same with DD. My best advice is to trust your gut. My DD had a very loud mantra (self-settling cry) but it was different than her "I'm beside myself cry". I couldn't tell you how they sounded different it was how my body responded when I tried to listen without thinking (if that makes sense) - I was relaxed and could comfortably leave her mantra crying but felt the need to get to her for other cries. In the books, Tracy reminds parents to SLOW down (stop, listen and observe before reacting). I don't think consistency in response time will make a difference because each day and each nap is different. Respond if you feel she needs you and let her attempt to self-settle if she's ok on her own.

[eogan0622]

Thank you!  Just the idea of set nap times has eased my mind a little and makes it easier to get through the day.  Yesterday was our first day on the set naps- it went something like this:

6:20: WU (stayed in crib until 6:30)
6:30: E
8:15: E (top up)
9-10:20: S (woke up 17 mins in but put herself right back down)
12:30: E
1:05-3:05: S (OK- here's the thing- she woke up at 1:35 and I could not resettle her but I knew she was still tired, she was rubbing her eyes and yawning between crying.  SO I did a bad thing and gave her the paci- which we haven't done in MONTHS! but she went right to sleep and I ended up having to wake her at 3:05....)
3:35: E
6:20: bedtime routine
6:30: E
6:45-6:45: S (NW- 1:20 and 4:30 both to eat)

So my biggest concern now is that I started the paci again and I'm feeling super guilty about it.  I gave it to her this AM when she got up after 30 mins and I tried for 15 mins to get her back down and couldn't.  She slept another 40 mins with the paci.  Same thing this afternoon.  Have I ruined her??  She goes down for naps with no paci and fusses/puts herself to sleep independently.  Am I giving her mixed messages?  Part of me feels like- it helps her, it extends her naps, and that's ok.  The other part of me is wondering if I've undone EVERYTHING that she was able to do before?  I refuse to do paci at night EVER. 

Please help?

[lily_layne]

Yay for a good day! I'm glad set naps set your mind at ease. It really helped me. Those wakings do sound a bit OT but if she's resettling than I would stick with the plan (and try not to stress about it). My DS did the same when we started a similar routine but then settled into it after a few days.

Have I ruined her?? 

No you have not and there is no need to feel guilty! Your goal is to get her on a routine with 2 long naps and if the paci is helping you reach that goal then I would say it's fine. It seems that you (like me) were getting really stressed about sleep so if the paci helps extend and get her on a routine that you are happy with, I would go for it. You can use the paci in the day and not at night and likely not have problems as day and night sleep are controlled by different parts of the brain. You can always re-train her to sleep without it if it becomes a habit but I don't think you'll need to as it sounds like she just needs it to resettle not to get to sleep initially. I think it's similar to me nursing DS at night. He sleeps through most nights but when he wakes, I almost always nurse him (because I'm a sucker for the easy way out in the MOTN) but it didn't become a prop or interfere with him learning to STTN - it's just a tool help him when he can't resettle on his own.

[eogan0622]

Thank you so much for your response- I was feeling terrible but your response helped me to feel better!  She did take the paci to extend her 1st nap today but has been able to extend her 2nd on her own! yay!

Quick question regarding set naps- I know they really worked for you so I'm picking your brain.

I'm finding that when she gets up at 3pm, stretching her until 6:30 or later has been really tough. Yesterday evening she seemed so tired between 5-6 and I pushed it until 6:30...and she had a terrible night- I think she was super OT.  Is that final stretch something I should slowly build up to or is it a more critical piece for later wake up and better naps?  I'm wondering if I should just try for a 3 hour stretch from the last nap.....

[lily_layne]

I was feeling terrible but your response helped me to feel better! 

I'm glad!

I did do BT 3 hrs from the last nap if it ended at 3 or later until he got used to not having a CN and the longer A. I am sorry for not mentioning that. If the last nap ended before 3, I tried for a CN. The first few days were tough as he was really tired around 2 hrs after the pm nap and I so wanted to give him a little CN but I pushed through and it didn't take long for him to adjust.

[eogan0622]

Hello again,

Thanks for the help.  The pacifier has helped us when we have needed to occasionally extend a nap...and luckily she doesn't need it every single time, and never to initially fall asleep.  We are still working on getting her naps down, but more often than not she's needing a CN to get her through to bedtime.  She will be 7 months old this week (!) and I'm feeling anxious because we are traveling all next week and will be off our "routine" (if you can even call it that).  It seems like she is having 1-2 days of good rest (2.5-3 hrs DT sleep total) and then will have 1-2 days of horrible naps (1-1.5hrs total).  Both ways, her nighttime sleep has been totally off for 4 nights now.  It's a complete 180 from what she was doing (1-2 NW a night).  Now, she goes down normal time (between 615-645) and wakes at least 2x before 1030pm (we don't feed, usually just a quick resettle).  Then she's usually up at 1030 or 11, 1 or 2, and between 3 and 5.  Up for the day between 630-7.  I don't know what is going on!  I thought FOR SURE she was (is) teething- fussy/irritable/chewing everything/little fever...but no tooth yet!!!! I really don't know what to do!  Any suggestions??

Thanks!

[eogan0622]

Also- on the days she does take a catnap, usually around 430ish, should I be capping these at 30 mins?  If shes up between 5 and 515pm from CN, how long should I wait to put her down for bed?  I don't want that last CN to interfere with night sleep, but some days (like today) her second nap at 1:15 only lasted  30 mins so I knew there was no way she would make it until bedtime.

[lily_layne]

I would definitely cap the CN at 30 or 45 minutes. I'm not sure how long to do A to bed - it really varies from LO to LO but I would err on the side of too early rather than too late. If you can (APOP if needed) I would try to get that CN earlier in the day so it's less likely to cause problems with night sleep. Also, I would try to APOP that second nap if she wakes early - I think you'd be better off if you can get her back to sleep then (even with rocking) than with a CN. Given that the paci's not becoming a prop, I don't think rocking now and then will become an issue.

Do you follow Wonder Weeks at all? There's a good app that explains the developmental leaps that occur at predictable times. She may be going through one and it could be the cause of the terrible sleep. Wonder Weeks always cause extra NWs here. It could also be teething - it takes a long time for the teeth to push up through the gums and it is painful even when you can't see the tooth. Medicate if you think she needs it.

Since her nights are so tough right now, I wouldn't cap any naps (except the CN) - if she's sleeping let her be so she can catch up a bit before you go away.