Author Topic: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!  (Read 3208 times)

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Offline Paoletta

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I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« on: October 30, 2015, 21:25:05 pm »
Hello everyone,
First of all I introduce myself. I am Paoletta, I am Italian -so apologies for any mistakes!- mum of a 7 1/2 months old LO. I have spent the last months being what now I believe the worst (accidental) parent ever!
Well, useless to say, we have sleeping problems and have been having them since birth. First 40 days of her life, LO would only scream and cry, sleeping no more than 4-5hrs out of 24, and no one knew why! We would rock her to sleep even for more than an hour but she would sleep! ever! It's been the hardest time in my life! We thought I didn't have much milk, or colics, or reflux, but in the end we could not figure it out and by the end of these 40 days things slowly improved by themselves. I went on bf, she started sleeping a bit more, and never had the time nor fancy any reading about babies! Until 20 days ago, when I bought THE book. I am desperately in need of a good night of sleep, without waking every 20, 30 or 60 min!
This was the background, apologies in advance for writing so much!
I now believe my LO is a spirited baby and this is probably why she doesn't (or better didn't) show any sign of tiredness, she can play all day long if you don't force her to sleep!
At the moment our typical day is:
7.30 wakes up
8.30 breakfast
9.40 naps till 10.20 (sometimes 11.00)
12.00 lunch
12.30 naps till 13.50 (sometimes 13.10)
16.00 naps till 17.15 (sometimes 16.50)
17.15 snack
19.40 dinner
21.30 bedtime
wakes several times
6.30 nurses and falls asleep till 7.30 or 8.00 or 8.30
 
These times can vary a lot from one day to another because her naps are not always the same, they can be 30, 45, 60 or 80 min tops. So the other events change accordingly. But she always sleeps 3 times a day since 2 months and is roughly up for 2hrs in between naps.

Up until last Sunday she would wake a countless number of times during the night, and always after 40 min of getting asleep for the first time, as if it was a nap. And EVERY time I would pick her up and bf her back to sleep, just because it required less time than anything else and we are exhausted. It all started when she was born, as she would wake up for feeding during the night and it went on and on without us realising that she couldn't possibly be hungry all these times at a older age.

Anyway, to address the sleeping problems we started pu/pd last sunday morning. First time we gave up, too much crying screaming etc and I slept her in the usual way (singing and walking with her in my arms). Second nap, it took almost an hour! Then it went gradually better but it has never been less than 17min. And she always cry. Only once she did not cry but only moaned a lot but eventually settled. My question is: what are we still doing wrong? I will tell you how we actually do pu/pd (I do it during nap times and my husband during the night so we avoid LO looking for my breast as she was used to):

When I think she is tired because she rubs her eyes or ears or hair, we say goodnight to toys, close the window, walk a bit in the darkened room, then I pd and she either starts playing or crying. If she plays she doesn't stop by herself, never. So I pu anyway and she relaxes a bit, then pd. And again she can play or cry. Until she eventually only cries. So I pu, calm her, pd, she cries again and so on until she starts to be drowsy when still in my arms, I pd and she eventually only moans without crying and then fall asleep.
(when we pd, we keep a hand on her back and say over and over the same sentences).
Results so far: during the day, she naps for longer usually. Before pu/pd she would only sleep for 30 to 45 min, whereas now she can sleep up to 80min; so that's progress for us! During the night instead, she wakes up first time after 1.5 or 2 or 3 or 4 hours (once) and then every 1 or 1.5 or 2 hrs. She was even awake for an entire hour last night, from 2 to 3am. It usually takes 5-15min for her to go back to sleep. It is always better than before, but still so very far from ideal or acceptable!

However, there is no way I can leave the room before she is asleep, and I can't imagine eventually going into her room, putting her down, leaving the room and finding her asleep by herself. I can't see how this method would lead to this result at the moment. Could you please help me out? I beg you...

Thanks to everyone!
Paoletta

Offline lauradj

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2015, 22:55:02 pm »
Hon, I am just dashing out the door to pick up my eldest from day care but I wanted you to know someone has seen your post.  I will respond after bed time!  By gentle on yourself in the meantime!


Offline lauradj

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2015, 05:07:05 am »
Ok, I'm back. 
I had a look at your EASY and I think one of the main issues is your daughter is not awake long enough between naps.  Most babies of 7 months are awake for at least 2hrs and 45 minutes, some are awake for 3hrs.  As well, most babies have dropped the cat nap by this age, and are only doing two naps a day.  I think if you keep her awake longer, you will solve a lot of the waking up issues.  45 minute naps are typically because baby is under tired, and that's probably also why PU/PD isn't working very well.
I would suggest you try for a good solid push of A time to 2.5 hrs right away and then after 4 days, push her again to 2.75 hrs.  You will need to give it at least a week, likely a week and a half, to see the full results because her body will be adjusting to the new timing. 
The other thing I wondered, just looking at your EASY, what is her actual bedtime?  You mention 6:30 but on your EASY it says 10:30pm/21:30.  Generally we recommend a 12hr day for most babies.  Some parents like 7-7, others prefer 8-8 etc.  Can you clarify?  Having a very late bedtime can lead to A LOT of NW's


Offline Paoletta

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2015, 07:33:22 am »
First of all thank you soooo much for taking time to reply to me, I really appreciate it.
Well, her bedtime is so late because she doesnt want to fall asleep any sooner, and it is so since she was 2 months old. It is also variable between 21.15 and 22.00 depending on her wake up time and last nap. Ideally I would like to have her on a 7.30 to 7.30 day but I am scared that such an early bedtime would lead to LO being awake for an hour or more like it was plain day! But if i skip the last nap as you suggested maybe she would be tired enough to sleep through the night?
Just to get things right, she should have a nap at around 10.30 ideally lasting more than 1h and another one at around 14.30. But if so, it means that she would be up at around 3.30 for the last time before bedtime; isnt she going to be OT by 7.30? Arent 4hrs wake a bit too much? Or is it supposed to be like that? Thaat the last stretch before bedtime is longer than the others?
So you suggest to keep her awake for 2.5h say before first nap in the morning all of a sudden, should i then ignore her sleep cues? If she rubs her eyes or yawns before the supposed naptime, should i keep her to play anyway?
Thank you very much for your help, i am sooo happy such a support group exists! You really are angels!

Offline lauradj

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2015, 17:02:20 pm »
We are happy to help in whatever way we can hon!
My suggestion for your day is:
WU/E: 7am
S: 9:30am
WU/E:  11am
S: 1:30pm
WU/E: 3:30pm
CN: 5:30 (30 mins maximum!)
WU: 6pm
Bath/Stories/Bottle: 6:30pm
In bed: 7pm

I actually think your LO is capable of being awake for 3hrs which would allow you to get rid of the Cat Nap entirely.  I've included it for now, just in case your LO gets too tired as you extend her A time.  I know it seems odd that your LO would be tired enough to go to bed after having a nap just before, but often babies are so tired from their busy day that they will happily go to sleep an hour later.  Bath time can be quite stimulating.
Regarding your LO's sleep cues, she may also just be bored and need a change of scenery.  I would suggest you get her out for a walk, or socialise with other moms and babies.  Looking out the window at the street can be really fun for babies (both my boys love it!), I also use the mid-day A time for running errands.  I just make sure I either bring a solids meal heated in a thermos or I make sure I'm home within an hour to feed baby.   

Once your LO is awake for 3hrs, your schedule would ideally look like this:

WU/E: 7am
S:10am
WU/E: 11:30am
S:2:30pm
WU: 4pm 
Bedtime:7pm

I hope this helps!


Offline Paoletta

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2015, 19:14:59 pm »
Thanks so much again! It surely helps me A LOT!
Today i have actually tried to do as you suggested
Wu 7.15
S 9.45 start pu/pd down at 10.00
Wu 11.35
S 14.45 start pu/pd down at 15.00
Wu 15.59 pu/pd 3 min down till 16.35
No CN
S 19.45 start pu/pd down at 20.10

We'll see how the night goes...

Is the pu/pd ok as I told you we are doing it?
Any suggestions for less screaming/crying? Wil it eventually stop all of a sudden? How long befre she understands how to fall asleep without putting up a fight every time?

xxx
P

Offline lauradj

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2015, 22:12:13 pm »
When done correctly, PU/PD can be highly effective.  I've attached a link below that should be able to answer pretty any question you may have on that subject.  One thing I would like to mention though, is PU/PD is not effective with Spirited babies, as they find it far to stimulating.  If you do have a Spirited daughter, as you mentioned you think, I would suggest you use Shhh-Pat instead.  It sounds like you have used that with her in the past and found it quite effective, so keep that going.  The other thing is, you must be consistent.  You cannot give in and sooth her as you used to because all you are teaching her is "If I just cry long enough, Mommy/Daddy will do what I want them to."  She can sooth herself to sleep but she needs you to show her how.  With a good wind down; soft, calming words, and a little encouragement, she will learn she can fall asleep on her own.  You're doing a great job!
Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!


Offline -Maya-

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 07:58:13 am »
Hello lovely, gentle hugs, you need them!
I agree with pp, suggestions like that made wonders for ds and me.  When I first read this forum ds was 4mo and the best thing I ever did for ds (and myself) was putting him in bed at 7 or 730. I did that against any advice of people around me, my mum, MIL, fellow mommies, etc. And still anyone here is surprised when I say what is ds sleep schedule. Even nursery teachers raise their eyebrows at that!
What worked fo us was me persisting  in bw sleeping patterns whatever happened. Also the Birth Clubs 0-18mths was very helpful for me. Sharing struggles and nice moments with other strugglings mums in a total non-judjmental way was encouraging.
My experience is that we live in a country in which families with no babies or toddlers seems to live quite late. So putting ds to sleep at 7.00pm was a way to move forward a strongly rooted habit. More than that it let me to have a peaceful dinner and also to go to bed early myself. I spent long months going to sleep at 830. Really this was the only way for me to have 4 or 5 uninterrupted hours of sleep as ds was always sleeping better in first part of night.
Good luck and let me know what happens!

Offline Paoletta

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2015, 15:26:26 pm »
Thanks again to you both, your help makes such a difference for me!

Well, you are absolutely right,my parents,my in laws and friends all criticise me because bt is too early and i cannot pretend dd being asleep until morning!

Anyway, until last night dd would still wake up every two hours at night (her bt now is between 20 and 20.20 depending on her last nap). But last night a miracle occurred and she slept for the first time ever for five hours straight!!!! Then again woke up every two hours but that means only 3 timesuntil it was morning! This is such a big achievement for us, we are so happy and proud of her and thankful to your suggestions! I hope it will go on like this or even improve!
 Why would you say she wakes up every 2 hrs at night? She sleeps around 15-15.30 forher last nap waking usually after 1h15min or even 1h30min and then no cn until 20-20.20 which is bt asi said before.
Any other suggestion about avoiding so much screaming/crying to fall asleep would be greatly appreciated. Shshupatting is not working with her,it seems it annoys her. I do pupd but with very limited PUs. What do you exactly means by mantra cry? Does it always occurr before falling asleep?

Keep u poste!
Xxx
P

Offline lauradj

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2015, 19:55:44 pm »
That's great!  I'm so glad you had some success.  I think as you continue on, you will see greater improvement because the schedule becomes predictable and your DD will understand that it is bedtime and she can take a long, hard rest from her busy day.  I still think you need to move her bed time earlier.  Asking her to stay awake for 4 hrs at the end of her day isn't fair.  She's growing and developing so much, you need to allow her the opportunity to really get a good long stretch of sleep in. 
What does your wind down routine look like, prior to you laying her down for naps and bedtime?  Spirited babies do really well with predictability and minimal stimulation prior to bed.


Offline Paoletta

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2015, 21:44:19 pm »
Well, tonight isnt looking particularly good...
I had to move her bt to 9pm because her father was late from work. She woke up at 16.55 from her last nap so it wasnt too long imo. However, at 21.50she woke up already, then asleep after 10min then woke up again after 5min and sleeping again as I wrote you. Would you say it is because she was ot? I did not notice it, it is difficult for me, she is always so very active! So you say that time between naps and bedtime can/should be the same (i.e. 3h)? I thought last stretch before dt should be a bit longer...am I wrong, am I not?!!!
Our wind down routine is simply this one: i pick her up from the puzzle mat, walk around a few seconds, say goodbye/night to a few toys abd putting them to sleep, go upstairs, close the window and curtains, and  read an extremely short story while she is already crawling in the bed! For bt the only difference is that i nurse her right before sleeping.
Would you suggest something different? Or, any suggestion for a quite activity? Everything dd does, semms not quite to me! Even if i don't give her any toy, she would sit and stand up all the time, or crawling to win the next marathon!

Offline lauradj

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2015, 23:57:49 pm »
I do think that tonight's bed time issues were as a result of her being OT.  For most LO's, the time between the last nap and bed time is actually the shortest of the day.  I know it can be hard on Dads when they have to work late.  They want to see their baby because they've been away from them all day, but it's really unfair to your baby to ask them to adapt to an adult schedule when they're still so incredibly young.  Their sleep needs to come first.
Regarding the wind down; do you read her the story when she's already in her bed?  I wonder if you read her the story sitting in a chair and then laid her down to sleep in her crib, she might begin to understand that the crib is for sleeping only, not play.  What do you think?  Spirited babies sometimes need a little longer to mellow out.  Perhaps you could play some quiet lullaby music to signal the change in activity?  My DS is a pretty mellow kid but I usually take him to his room, put on the lullaby music, change his diaper and put him into his sleep sack, then I either read him a story or give him a bottle, depending on when he last ate.  After that I switch the lullabies to white noise, give him a minute or so of cuddles and lay him down to bed.  Having said all that, my DS does not yet crawl, which in itself can throw things off as babies revel in their new-found freedom.


Offline -Maya-

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2015, 14:11:25 pm »
Well, you are absolutely right,my parents,my in laws and friends all criticise me because bt is too early and i cannot pretend dd being asleep until morning!
BTDT, much more than you can't imagine. My mum can be so stubborn! And guess what? Now that DS sleeps better she says to me "You always slept 12h per night when you were a toddler!"

About dad not seeing baby, well we had to accept it. DH works long hours and he commute to another city, so he usually wakes up before DS and is back from office when DS is again asleep. Things were that way for long, maybe in your cases H does not wake up so early and they can see each other in the morning. If not, well this is just a period and there are weekends to have family life. Maybe you can try to put her back on track, and then -only sometimes- put her in bed later. OT over OT can be awful, but some OT cna be manageable.
DH and I agreed that DS sleep needs come before DH need to see him. Probably the fact that I was obsessed (and still are! First time mum :) ) by DS sleep had helped DH to accept this.


Offline Paoletta

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2015, 16:31:31 pm »
Well, uptdating you from last night: after the first waking at 22 she slept for 4h then 3h then 1h and was completely awake at 6.30 (btwas21.00) and could not sleep again. All in all it was a fairly good night of sleep dor us! But not for her, it is not enough, i know. So she fell asleep at 9 in the stroller ( 3rd time EVER in her life!!) and woke up after only 20min, the minute we got home 😓. She then slept again at 12.35 until 14.15 (her longest nap ever) and now again at 17.15, which is hopefully going to be a CN. In your opinion, at what time she should go to bed for the night? At 20.00, supposing she is awake at 18.00.
Wind down: i read her the story while she is on our bed, crawling all over it and standing up on the frame!!! She doesnt enjoy it yet, I only like to take this habit. I cant use a chair, she wont sit on my laps for more than 2secs, she is sooooo very active! I bet she will have started walking by 10mo tops!
But the music is also a good idea, i avoided it at first because she was used to fall asleep while being walked in my arms playing some music. So when we started pu/pd i wanted to completely cut with the past routine! What would you say? After 10 days, can I reintroduce some music, a different one of course or is it too early
Both of you are right, DD sleep is more important. DH and I agreed that she will be asleep even if he is not home yet, it doesnt happen every night anyway...

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Re: I am going mad!! Really need your help here!
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2015, 16:46:34 pm »
Hahah DS rarely stays still when we read a book to him even now at 17mo. He is always doing something else, bouncing, moving around, picking other books, removing pages from books, etc.

I think I would put her in bed at 20.00. I am quite chicken about late BT, so  I always prefer "as early as possible" option.
For the BT routine I would suggest to choose one that you like and be consistent. Choose something that you will use when you are tired or ill. I have not so much experience in BT routine because DS does not badly need it, so lazy mum hasn't done it. Maybe wait for a better feedback on that.