I am going mad!! Really need your help here!

[Paoletta]

Hello everyone,
First of all I introduce myself. I am Paoletta, I am Italian -so apologies for any mistakes!- mum of a 7 1/2 months old LO. I have spent the last months being what now I believe the worst (accidental) parent ever!
Well, useless to say, we have sleeping problems and have been having them since birth. First 40 days of her life, LO would only scream and cry, sleeping no more than 4-5hrs out of 24, and no one knew why! We would rock her to sleep even for more than an hour but she would sleep! ever! It's been the hardest time in my life! We thought I didn't have much milk, or colics, or reflux, but in the end we could not figure it out and by the end of these 40 days things slowly improved by themselves. I went on bf, she started sleeping a bit more, and never had the time nor fancy any reading about babies! Until 20 days ago, when I bought THE book. I am desperately in need of a good night of sleep, without waking every 20, 30 or 60 min!
This was the background, apologies in advance for writing so much!
I now believe my LO is a spirited baby and this is probably why she doesn't (or better didn't) show any sign of tiredness, she can play all day long if you don't force her to sleep!
At the moment our typical day is:
7.30 wakes up
8.30 breakfast
9.40 naps till 10.20 (sometimes 11.00)
12.00 lunch
12.30 naps till 13.50 (sometimes 13.10)
16.00 naps till 17.15 (sometimes 16.50)
17.15 snack
19.40 dinner
21.30 bedtime
wakes several times
6.30 nurses and falls asleep till 7.30 or 8.00 or 8.30
 
These times can vary a lot from one day to another because her naps are not always the same, they can be 30, 45, 60 or 80 min tops. So the other events change accordingly. But she always sleeps 3 times a day since 2 months and is roughly up for 2hrs in between naps.

Up until last Sunday she would wake a countless number of times during the night, and always after 40 min of getting asleep for the first time, as if it was a nap. And EVERY time I would pick her up and bf her back to sleep, just because it required less time than anything else and we are exhausted. It all started when she was born, as she would wake up for feeding during the night and it went on and on without us realising that she couldn't possibly be hungry all these times at a older age.

Anyway, to address the sleeping problems we started pu/pd last sunday morning. First time we gave up, too much crying screaming etc and I slept her in the usual way (singing and walking with her in my arms). Second nap, it took almost an hour! Then it went gradually better but it has never been less than 17min. And she always cry. Only once she did not cry but only moaned a lot but eventually settled. My question is: what are we still doing wrong? I will tell you how we actually do pu/pd (I do it during nap times and my husband during the night so we avoid LO looking for my breast as she was used to):

When I think she is tired because she rubs her eyes or ears or hair, we say goodnight to toys, close the window, walk a bit in the darkened room, then I pd and she either starts playing or crying. If she plays she doesn't stop by herself, never. So I pu anyway and she relaxes a bit, then pd. And again she can play or cry. Until she eventually only cries. So I pu, calm her, pd, she cries again and so on until she starts to be drowsy when still in my arms, I pd and she eventually only moans without crying and then fall asleep.
(when we pd, we keep a hand on her back and say over and over the same sentences).
Results so far: during the day, she naps for longer usually. Before pu/pd she would only sleep for 30 to 45 min, whereas now she can sleep up to 80min; so that's progress for us! During the night instead, she wakes up first time after 1.5 or 2 or 3 or 4 hours (once) and then every 1 or 1.5 or 2 hrs. She was even awake for an entire hour last night, from 2 to 3am. It usually takes 5-15min for her to go back to sleep. It is always better than before, but still so very far from ideal or acceptable!

However, there is no way I can leave the room before she is asleep, and I can't imagine eventually going into her room, putting her down, leaving the room and finding her asleep by herself. I can't see how this method would lead to this result at the moment. Could you please help me out? I beg you...

Thanks to everyone!
Paoletta

[lauradj]

Hon, I am just dashing out the door to pick up my eldest from day care but I wanted you to know someone has seen your post.  I will respond after bed time!  By gentle on yourself in the meantime!

[lauradj]

Ok, I'm back. 
I had a look at your EASY and I think one of the main issues is your daughter is not awake long enough between naps.  Most babies of 7 months are awake for at least 2hrs and 45 minutes, some are awake for 3hrs.  As well, most babies have dropped the cat nap by this age, and are only doing two naps a day.  I think if you keep her awake longer, you will solve a lot of the waking up issues.  45 minute naps are typically because baby is under tired, and that's probably also why PU/PD isn't working very well.
I would suggest you try for a good solid push of A time to 2.5 hrs right away and then after 4 days, push her again to 2.75 hrs.  You will need to give it at least a week, likely a week and a half, to see the full results because her body will be adjusting to the new timing. 
The other thing I wondered, just looking at your EASY, what is her actual bedtime?  You mention 6:30 but on your EASY it says 10:30pm/21:30.  Generally we recommend a 12hr day for most babies.  Some parents like 7-7, others prefer 8-8 etc.  Can you clarify?  Having a very late bedtime can lead to A LOT of NW's

[Paoletta]

First of all thank you soooo much for taking time to reply to me, I really appreciate it.
Well, her bedtime is so late because she doesnt want to fall asleep any sooner, and it is so since she was 2 months old. It is also variable between 21.15 and 22.00 depending on her wake up time and last nap. Ideally I would like to have her on a 7.30 to 7.30 day but I am scared that such an early bedtime would lead to LO being awake for an hour or more like it was plain day! But if i skip the last nap as you suggested maybe she would be tired enough to sleep through the night?
Just to get things right, she should have a nap at around 10.30 ideally lasting more than 1h and another one at around 14.30. But if so, it means that she would be up at around 3.30 for the last time before bedtime; isnt she going to be OT by 7.30? Arent 4hrs wake a bit too much? Or is it supposed to be like that? Thaat the last stretch before bedtime is longer than the others?
So you suggest to keep her awake for 2.5h say before first nap in the morning all of a sudden, should i then ignore her sleep cues? If she rubs her eyes or yawns before the supposed naptime, should i keep her to play anyway?
Thank you very much for your help, i am sooo happy such a support group exists! You really are angels!

[lauradj]

We are happy to help in whatever way we can hon!
My suggestion for your day is:
WU/E: 7am
S: 9:30am
WU/E:  11am
S: 1:30pm
WU/E: 3:30pm
CN: 5:30 (30 mins maximum!)
WU: 6pm
Bath/Stories/Bottle: 6:30pm
In bed: 7pm

I actually think your LO is capable of being awake for 3hrs which would allow you to get rid of the Cat Nap entirely.  I've included it for now, just in case your LO gets too tired as you extend her A time.  I know it seems odd that your LO would be tired enough to go to bed after having a nap just before, but often babies are so tired from their busy day that they will happily go to sleep an hour later.  Bath time can be quite stimulating.
Regarding your LO's sleep cues, she may also just be bored and need a change of scenery.  I would suggest you get her out for a walk, or socialise with other moms and babies.  Looking out the window at the street can be really fun for babies (both my boys love it!), I also use the mid-day A time for running errands.  I just make sure I either bring a solids meal heated in a thermos or I make sure I'm home within an hour to feed baby.   

Once your LO is awake for 3hrs, your schedule would ideally look like this:

WU/E: 7am
S:10am
WU/E: 11:30am
S:2:30pm
WU: 4pm 
Bedtime:7pm

I hope this helps!

[Paoletta]

Thanks so much again! It surely helps me A LOT!
Today i have actually tried to do as you suggested
Wu 7.15
S 9.45 start pu/pd down at 10.00
Wu 11.35
S 14.45 start pu/pd down at 15.00
Wu 15.59 pu/pd 3 min down till 16.35
No CN
S 19.45 start pu/pd down at 20.10

We'll see how the night goes...

Is the pu/pd ok as I told you we are doing it?
Any suggestions for less screaming/crying? Wil it eventually stop all of a sudden? How long befre she understands how to fall asleep without putting up a fight every time?

xxx
P

[lauradj]

When done correctly, PU/PD can be highly effective.  I've attached a link below that should be able to answer pretty any question you may have on that subject.  One thing I would like to mention though, is PU/PD is not effective with Spirited babies, as they find it far to stimulating.  If you do have a Spirited daughter, as you mentioned you think, I would suggest you use Shhh-Pat instead.  It sounds like you have used that with her in the past and found it quite effective, so keep that going.  The other thing is, you must be consistent.  You cannot give in and sooth her as you used to because all you are teaching her is "If I just cry long enough, Mommy/Daddy will do what I want them to."  She can sooth herself to sleep but she needs you to show her how.  With a good wind down; soft, calming words, and a little encouragement, she will learn she can fall asleep on her own.  You're doing a great job!
Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

[-Maya-]

Hello lovely, gentle hugs, you need them!
I agree with pp, suggestions like that made wonders for ds and me.  When I first read this forum ds was 4mo and the best thing I ever did for ds (and myself) was putting him in bed at 7 or 730. I did that against any advice of people around me, my mum, MIL, fellow mommies, etc. And still anyone here is surprised when I say what is ds sleep schedule. Even nursery teachers raise their eyebrows at that!
What worked fo us was me persisting  in bw sleeping patterns whatever happened. Also the Birth Clubs 0-18mths was very helpful for me. Sharing struggles and nice moments with other strugglings mums in a total non-judjmental way was encouraging.
My experience is that we live in a country in which families with no babies or toddlers seems to live quite late. So putting ds to sleep at 7.00pm was a way to move forward a strongly rooted habit. More than that it let me to have a peaceful dinner and also to go to bed early myself. I spent long months going to sleep at 830. Really this was the only way for me to have 4 or 5 uninterrupted hours of sleep as ds was always sleeping better in first part of night.
Good luck and let me know what happens!

[Paoletta]

Thanks again to you both, your help makes such a difference for me!

Well, you are absolutely right,my parents,my in laws and friends all criticise me because bt is too early and i cannot pretend dd being asleep until morning!

Anyway, until last night dd would still wake up every two hours at night (her bt now is between 20 and 20.20 depending on her last nap). But last night a miracle occurred and she slept for the first time ever for five hours straight!!!! Then again woke up every two hours but that means only 3 timesuntil it was morning! This is such a big achievement for us, we are so happy and proud of her and thankful to your suggestions! I hope it will go on like this or even improve!
 Why would you say she wakes up every 2 hrs at night? She sleeps around 15-15.30 forher last nap waking usually after 1h15min or even 1h30min and then no cn until 20-20.20 which is bt asi said before.
Any other suggestion about avoiding so much screaming/crying to fall asleep would be greatly appreciated. Shshupatting is not working with her,it seems it annoys her. I do pupd but with very limited PUs. What do you exactly means by mantra cry? Does it always occurr before falling asleep?

Keep u poste!
Xxx
P

[lauradj]

That's great!  I'm so glad you had some success.  I think as you continue on, you will see greater improvement because the schedule becomes predictable and your DD will understand that it is bedtime and she can take a long, hard rest from her busy day.  I still think you need to move her bed time earlier.  Asking her to stay awake for 4 hrs at the end of her day isn't fair.  She's growing and developing so much, you need to allow her the opportunity to really get a good long stretch of sleep in. 
What does your wind down routine look like, prior to you laying her down for naps and bedtime?  Spirited babies do really well with predictability and minimal stimulation prior to bed.

[Paoletta]

Well, tonight isnt looking particularly good...
I had to move her bt to 9pm because her father was late from work. She woke up at 16.55 from her last nap so it wasnt too long imo. However, at 21.50she woke up already, then asleep after 10min then woke up again after 5min and sleeping again as I wrote you. Would you say it is because she was ot? I did not notice it, it is difficult for me, she is always so very active! So you say that time between naps and bedtime can/should be the same (i.e. 3h)? I thought last stretch before dt should be a bit longer...am I wrong, am I not?!!!
Our wind down routine is simply this one: i pick her up from the puzzle mat, walk around a few seconds, say goodbye/night to a few toys abd putting them to sleep, go upstairs, close the window and curtains, and  read an extremely short story while she is already crawling in the bed! For bt the only difference is that i nurse her right before sleeping.
Would you suggest something different? Or, any suggestion for a quite activity? Everything dd does, semms not quite to me! Even if i don't give her any toy, she would sit and stand up all the time, or crawling to win the next marathon!

[lauradj]

I do think that tonight's bed time issues were as a result of her being OT.  For most LO's, the time between the last nap and bed time is actually the shortest of the day.  I know it can be hard on Dads when they have to work late.  They want to see their baby because they've been away from them all day, but it's really unfair to your baby to ask them to adapt to an adult schedule when they're still so incredibly young.  Their sleep needs to come first.
Regarding the wind down; do you read her the story when she's already in her bed?  I wonder if you read her the story sitting in a chair and then laid her down to sleep in her crib, she might begin to understand that the crib is for sleeping only, not play.  What do you think?  Spirited babies sometimes need a little longer to mellow out.  Perhaps you could play some quiet lullaby music to signal the change in activity?  My DS is a pretty mellow kid but I usually take him to his room, put on the lullaby music, change his diaper and put him into his sleep sack, then I either read him a story or give him a bottle, depending on when he last ate.  After that I switch the lullabies to white noise, give him a minute or so of cuddles and lay him down to bed.  Having said all that, my DS does not yet crawl, which in itself can throw things off as babies revel in their new-found freedom.

[-Maya-]

Well, you are absolutely right,my parents,my in laws and friends all criticise me because bt is too early and i cannot pretend dd being asleep until morning!

BTDT, much more than you can't imagine. My mum can be so stubborn! And guess what? Now that DS sleeps better she says to me "You always slept 12h per night when you were a toddler!"

About dad not seeing baby, well we had to accept it. DH works long hours and he commute to another city, so he usually wakes up before DS and is back from office when DS is again asleep. Things were that way for long, maybe in your cases H does not wake up so early and they can see each other in the morning. If not, well this is just a period and there are weekends to have family life. Maybe you can try to put her back on track, and then -only sometimes- put her in bed later. OT over OT can be awful, but some OT cna be manageable.
DH and I agreed that DS sleep needs come before DH need to see him. Probably the fact that I was obsessed (and still are! First time mum ) by DS sleep had helped DH to accept this.

[Paoletta]

Well, uptdating you from last night: after the first waking at 22 she slept for 4h then 3h then 1h and was completely awake at 6.30 (btwas21.00) and could not sleep again. All in all it was a fairly good night of sleep dor us! But not for her, it is not enough, i know. So she fell asleep at 9 in the stroller ( 3rd time EVER in her life!!) and woke up after only 20min, the minute we got home 😓. She then slept again at 12.35 until 14.15 (her longest nap ever) and now again at 17.15, which is hopefully going to be a CN. In your opinion, at what time she should go to bed for the night? At 20.00, supposing she is awake at 18.00.
Wind down: i read her the story while she is on our bed, crawling all over it and standing up on the frame!!! She doesnt enjoy it yet, I only like to take this habit. I cant use a chair, she wont sit on my laps for more than 2secs, she is sooooo very active! I bet she will have started walking by 10mo tops!
But the music is also a good idea, i avoided it at first because she was used to fall asleep while being walked in my arms playing some music. So when we started pu/pd i wanted to completely cut with the past routine! What would you say? After 10 days, can I reintroduce some music, a different one of course or is it too early
Both of you are right, DD sleep is more important. DH and I agreed that she will be asleep even if he is not home yet, it doesnt happen every night anyway...

[-Maya-]

Hahah DS rarely stays still when we read a book to him even now at 17mo. He is always doing something else, bouncing, moving around, picking other books, removing pages from books, etc.

I think I would put her in bed at 20.00. I am quite chicken about late BT, so  I always prefer "as early as possible" option.
For the BT routine I would suggest to choose one that you like and be consistent. Choose something that you will use when you are tired or ill. I have not so much experience in BT routine because DS does not badly need it, so lazy mum hasn't done it. Maybe wait for a better feedback on that.

[Paoletta]

  i guess i still have to wait wuite a long time before it becomes an activity for the both of us then!!!

So, she had a30min CN waking up at 17.45 and at 19.55 we started our wd ritual but she immediately put up such a fight (crying and screaming the moment she understood it was time to sleep) that she only fell asleep at 20.30....i dont know why....sometimes i really struggle to understand her. She is so NOT regular that it becomes a puzzle for everything!!! Sometimes i do think that i am not careful enough, that i cant see her cues for what she wants me to understand, that i am not being a good mum. I do what i can, and thank you both for your time, support, suggestions and sharing your experience with me!

[lauradj]

Oh hon, you're not a bad mom.  It's really, really hard in the beginning and when you're getting so much conflicting advice from friends, family and random strangers you've met from the other side of the world  , it can get confusing and stressful.
I'm glad Maya has been able to chime in with her experiences.  It's quite different here in Canada.  The understanding is, kids are in bed somewhere between 6-7pm.  So when evening events are planned, either all the parents make sure they have a baby-sitter or parents to watch the kids, or if the event starts in the late afternoon (4pm-ish), we bring our kids and then leave around 6pm so we're home for bedtime. 
I just want to touch on bed time again.  I agree with Maya, you need a choose a bed time that works for you and stick with it.  The reason I keep pushing for a 7pm (19:00) bed time, is your daughter is waking at 7/7:30am and the majority of babies cannot handle more than a 12hr day.  She's crying and screaming when you go to get her ready for bed because she is completely and utterly exhausted by that point.  When she woke at 17:45 from her catnap, you should then begin bath time and wind down at 18:30 so that she is in bed by 19:00, 19:30 at the absolute latest.  Does that make sense?

[Paoletta]

Thanks for being so understanding, I appreciate it.
Btw, about these random strangers...thank god they exist!!!

I do understand what you say, and beginning to share these ideas. However, the thing I don't understand is why would the she wake up in the middle of the night and start playing for 45min before being able to sleep again, like she did last night. Bt was 8.30pm, woke up at 00.30, fell asleep quickly , woke up at 3.15 and didnt sleep until 3.50, woke up 4.25 and fell asleep quickly, woke up at 6.45, fed her but didn't want to sleep anymore! If she was sooo tired at 8.30pm, why did she sleep "well" only for the first part of the night? This is what i dont get, the so numerous wakings and her playing in the night. How can i avoid it? Only with an earlier bt? If so, why? I am going to try to move her bt tonight at 7.30pm, and see what happens!

[-Maya-]

Paoletta I am not sure what you mean when you say random strangers. Am I missing something? My memory is still foggy.

Before seeing any result in night sleep I think you must stick to a routine for a couple of weeks. I suggest to do only activities that can be done in her a time. It will be hard because there is not so much that can be done. I remember feeling trapped at home, or running to my parents to get there on time for nap. But it is just a period and it passes.

[Paoletta]

Just a joke, since lauradj was referring to you and herself that way in her last post!!!

It will be two weeks on Sunday, dince we started pu/pd + routine change+ no bf during the night at all (not for eating nor falling back to sleep as dd was used). How much longer it typically needs to sleep through the night?
I am also worried because next monday i am going to my parent's house and staying therr for a week....what about the change? Dd knows them, i think she remembers them from a couple of weeks ago, but the house crib etc is giing to be completely new...i wonder if she is gonna follow the same routine there as well....

[lauradj]

I remember the first time we took DS1 to California, I was SO worried how he would sleep.  Ironically, he actually slept for longer stretches at their home than at our home in Vancouver!  I think it was because it was SO quiet where they live in the winter.  As long as you maintain the routine you and DH have set up for her, she'll likely be just fine.
Regarding the NW's, Tracy actually addresses this and it was a total shock to me.  As adults, we usually sleep through the night but we go through different levels of consciousness during that sleep.  Sometimes we have to get up to use the washroom or get some water.  Some people are just atrocious sleepers.  Babies rarely actually sleep through the night.  They'll wake a bit, roll around, change position and then fall back asleep.  So if DD is waking up, but isn't crying, just leave her to it and she'll just put herself back to sleep.  The important thing is to not rush in unless she's crying.  DS1 used to do a blast cry in the middle of the night that lasted for 5-10secs at best.  DH and I would leap out of bed and rush in and DS would be sound asleep....   That ended up being just a phase and we learned to wait before rushing in.  DS2 did something similar when he was first teething.  He'd cry out for a couple of seconds but it wasn't a genuine cry, just enough to wake us up, then he'd drift back to sleep.  Thankfully that has ended.
I know it's been two weeks since you started chatting with us but if you think about it, you've just recently, in the last few days, started putting her to bed earlier.  I wouldn't actually start counting days until tonight when you do the earlier bed time.  It sounds like you're making great progress though!

[Paoletta]

  i forgot to mention that her crib in our room yet....as she was waking up sooooo many times at night we never decided to move her to her room. Everytime she wakes up, she stands up in the crib, look for us and if we don't respond she starts crying. So we have to pick her up!
Is it something else I am doing wrong? My worry is that she can climb the crib. The crib is my husband's baby crib, and the distance between mattress and top is shorter than nowadays cribs. Dd is also extremely mobile and active, she stands up and jumps and I would not sleep if she was in another room. Am I paranoid? Please tell me if you think so, i need to know!!!!!

[lauradj]

Hmm, I may not be the best person to advise you in this situation. We had DS1 in his own room at two weeks, and DS2 by 10 weeks. 
Honestly, I think she'll be totally fine and if she does climb out, just pop her back in and tell her not to climb out, she could get hurt.  She's not likely to get genuinely hurt, it's just that kids understand more than we tend to give them credit for.

[trimbler]

I don't have experience with climbing 8mo babies but our DD is still in our room! She's just had too much noisy unsettledness at night, and since we're in a 2 bedroom flat, she's either in with us or in with DS, who sometimes wakes from her crying through the wall, so we don't want to inflict it on him in the same room However, she can't see us at night as the room is pitch black, and we use white noise right next to her cot to help mask our own sleeping sounds, so I wondered if you might be able to do something similar if you're worried about her climbing?

[Paoletta]

Dd doesnt like pitch black at all! Since she was born she would cry if no lights were on! I'll wait a few more weeks and then move her to another room, maybe putting cushions over the floor close to the crib, just in case 

Anyway, it was going a bit better, not consistently better though, when yesterday evening all of a sudden, dd wouldnt settle for sleep. She would cry and scream when pd, like it was the beginning again! Same thing today at the two nap times, plus she woke up every hour/hour  and a half for the whole night!!!! Whst's happening?
We havent changed anything in the (already new) routine, i really cannot understand...
Any thoughts?

[-Maya-]

Hello dear, for us hourly wakeup at night means a discomfort. Teething or any kind of illness. Rarely it was too hot or too cold.

[Paoletta]

  I know, that's what i thought myself, it cannot be because she hates us (not yet at least!) she must have a reason for doing so. However i am struggling to figure it out... Too hot, too cold, wet/soiled are ruled out. About teething...i cant say, have no experience before with this issue. But her gums dont look any different to me.
 Anything else i am forgetting? So that i can try to solve the issue and start making some progress (and sleep) again!

[trimbler]

Have you heard of the wonder weeks? http://www.thewonderweeks.com Great excuse for sudden poor sleep that and teething I think there's supposed to be a sleep regression around 8mo too, although that might be related to the ww around that time. It's nice to know about as you know that these things will pass Try not to despair after one day/night of poor sleep, I know it's horrible to be sleep deprived and you can start to panic about how tomorrow will go, but it's a new day and she might surprise you Let us know how it goes...

[lauradj]

Could definitely be the WW.  Do keep in mind though that there will be the occasional rough go, we still get those now and again with DS2 and he's 26 months old!

[Paoletta]

  ww, 8m sleep regression...
When are all these nice surprises going to finish?!
I am having some real fun reading about them all 
Any others i should know about??!!   

[trimbler]

Er...well, there are lots of wws, then there are nap transitions and a big SR around 18mo... But on the plus side, especially with the wws, just think about how amazing their development is, how their understanding of the world increases and what an amazing little person she is I personally found DS's first year really rough, but after that it started getting less intense. I think partly knowing that has helped me to enjoy DD much more, of course I still have my rough days but this time I can tell you that these rough phases do pass, and they mean your DD is growing and developing

[lauradj]

Oooo, the first gastrointestinal flu is a real riot!  DS1 got it when I was 8 months pregnant, then DH and I got it immediately after.  SO fun!!   Pink eye is also a hoot 

[trimbler]

Actually I'm sure my bout of gastroenteritis during pregnancy turned out to be a good thing - all that retching and insides-emptying finally turned my breech baby

[Paoletta]

OMG!!! You're scaring the hell out of me!!!! 
You should ban this forum to those who are trying to conceive!!!! Planet Earth would be a desert bu 100 years!!!! 

After 3 full weeks of starting to change her sleeping habits, we are still getting no more than 3h uninterrupted sleep (only once 5h ) but hopefully it will continue to improve! I am only worried that our voices and hand on the back could become her new prop for sleeping, we never managed to leave the room and leave her to fall asleep completely alone. I am not even sure how to try, at which point we should just leave her and go out of the room. Suggestions would be more than welcome!!!! As always! 

[lauradj]

Something you could try, that I did with DS1, is gradually removing yourself.  I did this over a period of about 30 minutes but DS1 was older when I did this and had been an independent sleeper for quite some time.  I would pick him up and sooth him, then I'd lay him in bed with my hand on his tummy or back, then I removed my hand but stayed beside the crib where he could see me, then I went and sat in the chair in his room (he could still see me).  After I sat there for about 10 minutes, and I could hear his breath had slowed, I would, ninja-style, leave the room.  For you and DH, the first night you might keep your hand on her but not say anything; the next night, remove your hand after 5-10 minutes but stay by the bed, etc.  That might actually be similar to Pantley's Gentle Removal Plan, but I'm not sure.  It's just what worked for us.   

[Paoletta]

Thanks! Next week when back home we'll try it for sure! Is it better during naps or nights? Or do it for both?

[lauradj]

I only had to use it at night.  My boys have always been fairly good sleepers.

[Paoletta]

Hello again to you all, here I am again asking for your help!
After a month of pu/pd, we are still not sleeping...
I didnt have the chance of trying to leave the room before DD would fall asleep as things progressively got worse and worse. DD was waking up every 2-3 hrs, but now she wakes up every hour, stay awake for 1-2h per night and then maybe she sleeps 2h and it's morning...It's a real nightmare, believe me. Also, she seems to be more upset than usual during the day, she always wants to have me very very close,  though she naps always fine (2 times a day for at least 1h, more often 1h20min each). My husband has developed the (bad) habit of feeding her at a certain point of the night/early morning (say between 4 and 6) when he doesnt know how else to calm her. Is it going to do more harm than good in the long term? She only drinks one third to half of her usual feed, which is already a small amount (never more than 100ml), so i can safely say that she is not that hungry when he feeds her. He says she now wants it and looks for the bottle if he doesnt give it to her.
What do you suggest we do? Can it be separation anxiety? If so, how do we cope with it? How long is it going to last for, typically? Should My husband console her or should it be myself? I mean, is it better or worse if she sees me when she wakes in the night?
Please help me understand what's happening, why things are not improving and how to avoid screwing up completely!!!
Many many thanks in advance.

[lauradj]

Oh hon!  I'm sorry things have taken a turn for the worse again.  How frustrating for you.  8 months is prime time for separation anxiety.  My little guy cries whenever I leave him at the rec centre day care for my workout, even though he's known those ladies for 4 months and they LOVE him.  It's pretty heartbreaking.
Regarding the night time bottle, I really think that needs to stop because it's becoming a prop.  She won't calm down without it and so that has now become an expectation.  Try replacing it with a soother perhaps?  Could you post your EASY?  It sounds like either a)she's UT, or b) she's going through some kind of developmental leap.  Let's start with the routine and go from there.

[Paoletta]

Thanks for replying so quickly!
So easy looks like this pretty much every day:
6.45-7.15 WU and breakfast solids
A until 9.30/45 then bottle (80-100ml)
S until 11.15
E 12.15/30 solids
A until 14.30 then bottle (80-100ml)
S until 15.45/16.10
E 18.45 solids
A until 20.00 then bottle (50-70ml)
S 20.10 falls asleep
And then all the wakings start!!!

What do you make of it?

[lauradj]

Ok, I'm noticing a couple of things.  First, I would suggest you push for a longer A time.  3hrs and 15 mins is a very reasonable A time for this age.  Some babies are even staying up for 3.5-4 hrs.  The other thing is, she is up WAY too late at night given her morning WU.  If she's waking at 6:45/7am, she needs to be in bed by the same time in the evening.  That is likely why you are getting the interrupted sleep at night, she's OT.