8 Months & EASY gone haywire

[theu.s.lees]

Hello! H is 8 months in a few days and her EASY has gone crazy. She's up all night and then not hungry during the morning because she ate all night. She takes a good first nap (that I usually wake her from) but then the PM nap is all over the place with major BT struggles. Here is her typical EASY (taking note that the PM nap also can have preschool runs at 2:45pm even if she would go down)

WU: 7:30/8am
E: 7:45 - I try to nurse her but she doesn't take much even if I try to remove distractions (aka her siblings)
A:
E: 9:30 solids
A
S: 10:30-12pm
E: 12:30 (I wait as I have to take M to school at 12:15, so it is when I get home)
A
E: 1:30 (solids)
A
S: 4pm - 5pm (I start earlier and she's rubbing her eyes but won't go down and just fights me, I usually quit, and try again, nursing her to sleep later)
E: 6:45
BT: 8pm (now, it's battles, and last night she didn't go to bed until closer to 9)
Then we had NW at 10:30, 12:30, 3, 5:30.

She has reflux but is on meds, and her bed is angled. She was getting better with the bed incline and upped her meds but then things went crazy after a cold in the house. Now it's like she can't go down on her own anymore and instead of 1 NW, it's all the time. I feed her as she seems hungry, and we are so tired. But DH is ready to help more so that we don't feed her. Oh and we use lots of gripe water.

Whew, Please help! and thank you.

[trimbler]

Hey sorry this got missed, how have the last couple of days been? Sounds quite OT to me, it's late here now but just a few thoughts and questions to start with...

What time do you start aiming for her second nap?

Could she be teething?

I only see 3 milk feeds during the day, is that right? Is there any way you could squeeze in another, say, just after her pm nap? Or do you think she takes a full feed when she nurses to sleep for it? Or maybe try and nurse her before/after/mid breakfast. Just thinking it sounds a bit like reverse cycling,what do you think?

Can you get her to bed any earlier when she's had a shorter pm nap? She's probably tired enough for it earlier, or is that impossible with the older ones?

[theu.s.lees]

She took a full feed just before her 4pmnap that day. I tried after but she didn't really eat anything. And usually I nurse her after and then before bed if she naps a tad earlier. I feel like she's uT except that's she's acting tired super early into her A time. The past couple of nights she's woken at 10:30, 12:30 and then had a party at 3:30 where she just wants to play for an hour or so. DH is laying on her floor now while she plays after trying for 20 to get  her to sleep. She had a better EASY yesterday with a 2hr nap and a45 min pm nap. And she went to bed easily. But still three NW with one being long. It's killing me.
Teeth. Could be. She was drooling a ton a week ago and we had been giving Tylenol. I also got her an amber necklace which seems to be helping. Though we did do Tylenol before bed tonight.

[trimbler]

Hmm just wondering why you think she 's UT if she's acting so tired early on in her A times? Could she be OT but then get a 2nd wind? Mine can act pretty hyper when OT, many probably wouldn't believe me if I said they were tired I used to think that long NWs always meant UT and needing to stretch A times in the day. They can mean that, but as I've learned the hard way, OT can cause them too

I'd be interested to know what 2nd A time you've been trying for? She ends up with 3h first A then 4h second A, right? Also I'd have thought that the 3h before BT could be too long after a 1h nap? My other thought was what are your older ones doing before her second nap? Could she be getting OS or just wanting to be with them rather than go off into her room to sleep? Could she be feeling she's missing out? Could you introduce some calm time before trying for her nap perhaps?

Multiple NWs could be teeth... But sounds like you're covering all the bases there already. Hang on in there, (((hugs)))

[theu.s.lees]

OT. That's an interesting thought. I'm sure that second nap is OT but the struggle makes nap time hard. She almost always goes down easily for the first nap but struggles for the second. And we did have an earlier abT but were getting BT battles too. So it feels like everything is a mess and I don't even know where to start. Of course she fell asleep for five minutes in the car on the way home from church and then wouldn't nap. So today is off too. I'm
Just so tired!

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) sleep deprivation is such a struggle I'm not sure what you've already tried with the routine? Can I ask where you're hoping to end up? What I mean is, even though you'd hope for two decent naps at the moment, at some point you'll be wanting one of them to get shorter as you approach the 2-1. And I guess which one you want to be short will depend on your timings of school runs - I see you're out between 12.15-12.30, right? And then do you have a collection to do later on, and if so, what time? And how much longer will this routine (of school runs) go on for? If you'll be out around midday for a good while longer, then you'll probably want/need to move towards a shorter morning nap and then a longer pm nap when you're back home? Depending on how long you're home for before collection! The reason I'm thinking along these lines is that if you're going to be capping the morning nap anyway then we don't want to push it out and make it a really long one - if that's not possible for you. And perhaps, just perhaps, capping it a bit now and aiming for the second nap earlier could be what she needs to settle more easily? This was certainly the case with my DS - if I let him sleep too long in the morning, he just wouldn't take a decent pm nap. I had to do the same short am, long pm thing with DD, but that was because of preschool runs, like you - I think she would have naturally done long am, short pm, but we've kind of made it work...or at least manageable

Does that make any sense? What do you think?

[theu.s.lees]

Sleep deprivation is awful! It makes me crazy! Especially when I have two other kids to then be "on" for.

But it felt like we tried everything (longer A times, shorter A times, longer naps, shorter naps, etc.) and it was just getting crazy and no matter how much day sleep she had, she would sleep awfully at night, which was the worst part. I guess I can deal with no naps, or short naps, but the NW are killing me slowly. Last night DH said he'd take all the NW to give me a break. But she woke up at 10:45 and struggled until almost 1am. She finally pooped, had some tylenol and nursed and then slept until 7am. Which that last part is a little victory! But the day was rough and I know she was OT with only a nap of 1 hour or so in the car as she wouldn't settle anywhere else.

Today, I cut the am nap from 2 hours to 1.5 as I didn't want to do too much, though that is a big amount, I suppose. I also tried something new for settling, using some music on my phone (I lost my voice almost so I couldn't sing) and that seemed to help. She settled for her morning nap really well and then did decently at her second nap. So there is progress I suppose.

You make a good point about what the goal is. The hard thing is that I have a school run at 12:15 and then again at 2:45. So a nap will fall in there and it's hard to make it work. Like today, I had her up at 11:30, but down at 2:50 as thankfully my MIL could pick my son up. anyway, I'm open to ideas on how you'd deal with that one!

[trimbler]

Yay let's celebrate the good settling and naps today and the good stretch last night

Forgot to ask before, did you ever try the dream feed? It's just that I wouldn't expect every 8mo to be able to make it through the night without a feed, and perhaps it could help, although I'm not sure how easy it would be to introduce it to an 8mo, I guess you could even just decide to feed at the first NW or the one which falls closest to your own BT if she has an unsettled evening. Just something to consider...

Hmm...these school run timings are tricky, aren't they! Just had a bit of think about a possible plan, perhaps it's a bit crazy/unlikely to work but let me know what you think. Actually I think I have three ideas, but won't be offended if you don't think any will work

Option 1: drastically shorten morning nap so that she's ready for a long one by 12.30. You may need to bring WU a bit earlier too. Really unsure of timings to suggest here, but maybe something like:
7am WU
10-10.30 nap 1 (not sure she'd be ready for such a short first nap at this age though...especially as it's her best one)
12.30-2.30 nap 2 (2h A might be too long after a 30min nap, I'll ask around if you want to try this!)
I suspect she would then need a CN before BT or it's a long stretch

Option 2: shift the whole day much earlier and shorten morning nap but not so much ie
6am WU
9-10 nap 1 (you'd probably shorten this gradually over the coming months)
12.30-2.30 nap 2 (again fishing in the dark for A time but could think more if you want to do this one)
6 BT (yes early, but WU is early too...may still need a tiny CN to get to a reasonable BT)
Not sure I'd want to make such a big shift to an earlier WU though

Option 3: keep naps before and after school (rather than during) until spring daylight savings:
stage 1:
7.30 WU (may need to get a bit earlier if morning nap naturally gets so short that she can't last until 3pm for next nap)
10.30-12 nap 1 (this would probably naturally shorten - mine have both kept a 3h first A time and let the first nap get shorter approaching the 2-1)
3-? Nap 2
BT dep on nap 2

possible end of stage 1 (~12mo+?):
7am WU
10.30-11.30 Nap 1 (almost impossible to guess A times 4 months in advance but something like that)
3-4? Nap 2
BT??

Stage 2 of option 3 would rely on the spring daylight savings to help you make the first nap fall at 12.30 and use a jump in first A time to lengthen that nap again, so:

7am=new 8am, try to shift day 30mins over a weekend and get to...
8.30am WU
12.30-2.30 Nap 1
?? CN in pm until no longer needed

I'd personally try option 3 but there are so many unknowns sorry if that was all a bit long and unnecessary, just wanted to help you think through the various options keeping the big picture in mind so we can come up with a plan of action

[theu.s.lees]

Thank you for all your ideas. I'm really stuck. Because when I don't have school runs, she does so well with a 1.5 hour am nap and then a 1 hr pm nap after 3hrs-3.15 A time. Then BT about 3 hours later. That has worked the past three days and we've gone back to just two NW (which seems crazy that I'm happier with that). I'm not sure how to get rid of those. I am feeding at both times - usually around 10:30 and then 2am. But I don't want to mess with too much as she is just settling back down a little bit.

The hard thing is that with the school run, usually she goes down at 3pm for that second nap, or just after. So she'd fall asleep on the way home for sure. And of course, then she won't go down for her nap once we are home. So I suppose I would be going with the Option 3 like you said. But might have to work hard to keep her up. Maybe if I can push her am nap a tiny bit so she's up just before we leave, it would work.

[trimbler]

Ah I was thinking you had to leave at 12 and back by 12.30? Yes if you can leave later then aim for her to be napping a little later. This is what I do with my DD now, she naps roughly 1-3pm and I've learnt, through trial and error, that it's just about possible to get her up and straight into the buggy at 3pm on the dot, run down the hill and be at the school gate for 3.15

Sorry if I've missed it, but on those good days without the school run, what were the actual timings? It's good to know what works on an ideal day And it sounds like her current ideal routine should work with the school runs, if only it happened at the right time

[theu.s.lees]

Yes. Without school runs she typically naps from 10-11:30 or 10:30-12 ( I wake after 1.5 hrs) and then down for an hour about 3-3:15 A time. But even on ideal days we are still getting two NW one sometimes long. And it's always worse when a nap is messed up.

[trimbler]

Hmm the fact that the nights are worse when the naps get messed up makes me wonder if she's a bit OT, what do you think? How has BT been the last few days? You said things have settled down a bit, so I wondered if you could post a recent day so we can think about the next tweak...

I did have another thought, don't know if it's relevant for you, but I've noticed that DD doesn't settle so well if we've just returned from somewhere with DS - the worst is when we all get home from church as she's had all that excitement too Do you think she might be struggling to get to sleep in the afternoon on days when you collect DS because she gets OS?

[theu.s.lees]

That's an interesting thought about the OS. He is always so excited to see her plus all the other kids around during pick up (we have to go into the school to collect him). I did stop bringing her to church most weeks because she has been falling asleep on the way home but then won't go down once home even though it's only a 10 mi ute drive.

Today was: no school run)
Wu/E (BF) - 7:15
A
E - solids - 8:30
S - 9:45-11:45 (DH was in charge and let her sleep two hours I usually wake after 1.5)
E: - 11:45 BF
A
E - 1:30
E - 3pm bf
S - 3:15-4:15
E: 5pm bf
E - 6:45 top up bf
S -  7:05

she typically has a NW at 10:30 (which I feed so
I kind of think of as a do even though she asks for it) and around 2am again I feed then too.

[trimbler]

Wow that was a long morning nap after a relatively short A time! Or is 2.5h her normal for that first A time? Can't help wondering whether she's making up for less sleep at night with a short A time and long first nap?? I know your DH let her sleep that long but I wouldn't be so concerned about her sleeping 2h, if she'd had a slightly longer A time... Or on the other hand, if 2.5h is what's comfortable for her, then I wonder if she's finding the 3-3.5h A time in the middle of the day a bit too long? That 1h pm nap could be OT...which could then be building up before BT and affecting the nights? Or does that analysis feel all wrong to you? Hard to judge it at a distance! But I would be inclined to try and push that first A a bit, at least to 3h (which she already does some days according to your first post?), which of course on school run days would mean waking her in the morning if necessary, then again I like to have a consistent WU time if possible.

My other thought was whether you've considered introducing a third solids meal - do you think she's ready for it yet? I'm not saying that she should be on three solid meals by now or that it would sort out her hunger at night, just wondering...

[trimbler]

Hey there, just noticed your post on your other thread, I'd been wondering how you were doing? Do you want to continue chatting here or start a new thread, or give a fuller update over there? (((Hugs)))