Cannot work out my 4 month old…can you?! *Update - things now worse!!*

[Confuzzled]

Hi ladies,

Sorry in advance for my long post! I have a 4 month old (20 weeks) and he is breastfed apart from one bottle of formula given as a DF. His night sleep is not a problem at all, however his wake up time is not consistent - anywhere from 6.30am - 8am.

His naps are a nightmare! Even as a new born he did not sleep much in the day so it has always been difficult. We had a period between 12-16 weeks where honestly, he was awake all day aside from a few minutes dozing on the breast, and it was exhausting. He does not sleep in his buggy at all. Sometimes he will drop off in the sling but not always.

I started by trying to watch for his sleepy signs but discovered that by the time he yawns and rubs his eyes he is overtired, so I now try to go by the clock instead.

I have been doing a consistent nap wind down routine now for about 6 weeks. It involves reading together in his dimly lit nursery, putting on his sleeping bag, putting on lullabies and some white noise, closing blinds and saying bye to the sun, cuddle and then put down drowsy.

Recently I had a breakthrough and worked out that his first awake time of the day is very short - if I put him down 60 mins after he wakes, he settles himself to sleep in around 15 mins without any fuss at all. So an awake time of 1 hr 15. He naps for precisely 45 mins and I cannot extend this.

After this - it falls apart. Putting him down again 60 mins after he wakes is too soon and he is under tired. I have tried altering this by 5 mins, 10 mins etc up to keeping him awake for 1 hr 45 mins - nothing works. For all other naps he cries and cries when I put him down. Sometimes I can rock him to sleep, often I can't and give up after an hour of trying. He is then overtired the whole day.

Every nap he has is 45 mins. Occasionally 30, but usually 45 mins.
This means our routine is a mess - he usually feeds every 3 hours, so will often end up falling asleep at the breast during his 2nd feed because it coincides with his next sleepy period.

The only day time sleep i can count on is his 45 minute nap in the morning and some days that is all he has which is not enough at all.
I put him down for this every day even if he wakes at 6.30 - he will be back in bed by 7.30. I think this is too early but if I try to stretch him to 8 or 9 he is so overtired he won't sleep at all.

I feel I must be going wrong somewhere but I don't know where…can anyone suggest anything to me?

In case it helps - he wakes up crying from most naps so I think he is still tired. But once I get him up he is all smiles until he begins to feel very overtired again.

[jessmum46]

I think you are overall working on too short A times and that's getting you into an UT/OT loop.  By 20 weeks most babies would handle at least 2h up to potentially 2h15-30 for some.  The first A of the day is likely so short because he's tired from lots of very short naps.  But I think starting from pushing that one will be the way to get you out of a tricky cycle.  How are nights right now?

So first I would probably work on putting him down for his first nap 15 mins later (ie 15 mins more A time) every 3 days.  Get that first A stretched out to a good 2 hours.  Keep the extra time 'up' low-key until he gets used to it but stick with it, even if you get some OT naps.  You'll likely have more success resettling if he is more tired going down to start with - that 45 minute wake with no resettle is classic UT.  After a good nap I would be shooting for at least 2h A again before putting down, maybe a touch shorter after a short nap but not by much.  Ideally you want to be aiming for just two good naps and a catnap at this age, and looking to drop the catnap over the next couple of months. 

What do you think?

[Confuzzled]

Thank you for your reply.

I definitely agree his A times are too short. The short A time is the only way I can get him down for that first nap. But I will try extending it as you suggest.

Nights are okay - he is asleep by 7.30, has a dream feed at 10.30 and then he usually sleeps until 4-5 (feeds) and then wakes again 6-8 depending on the day. I am fairly happy with this as he used to have two night wakings.

Is it possible I am mis-reading his cues do you think? For example, just now I am trying to get him to nap. After 90 minutes of awake time, he began to zone out and look away from me so we went to his room and sat and read stories. After 10 minutes I put him in his sleeping bag, put on music and we said by to the sun. As I lowered him into his cot he yawned and rubbed his eyes. To me this seems like I timed it perfectly?! But 2 mins later and he is crying…..so I am about to go in and presumably will need to rock him until he drops off, I won't leave him to cry.

I'm just so frustrated, even when it looks like I have it perfect, it doesn't work and I am being SO consistent with this wind down routine and everything. So desperate for just a few minutes to get something done!

[jessmum46]

If he's touchy with that first nap just go slow, take him up to his room just 5 mins later and then spend 5 more minutes than usual on winddown, that gets you 10 mins later and shouldn't tip him over the edge

Nights are good!  Well done

I think you need to be aware that sleep cues aren't always hugely reliable as LOs get older.  They can indicate boredom, built-up tiredness, habit rather than being ready to go for a good sleep *right now*.  At his age I just wouldn't be going much shorter than 2h, I think even if he has built-up OT he'll need a proper A time to be able to settle well and sleep a good nap. 

Hang in there, I know it's hard-going (and this age is rubbish for sleep) but just gently push it and I think you will make progress xx

[Confuzzled]

Thanks again for your reply!

So this is what happened this morning….grateful for any thoughts.

He woke at 6.30. Normally I would wind down at 7.30 and have him in the cot by 7.45 latest. He then plays for 10 mins and goes to sleep for 45 mins.
Today I did wind down at 7.40 and he was in the cot 7.55. I saw his usual tired signs after an hour but they had passed but the time he went down.

He cried within 2 mins of me leaving the room. I went back and forth a few times - when I went in he started grinning and chatting, but cried when I left. Eventually I resorted to picking him up and rocking him. Between 8.15 - 8.45 I rocked him to sleep 3 times - but every time I put him down his eyes flew open. I eventually abandoned the nap at 8.45.

We played quietly for 15 minutes and then at 9 he seemed sleepy so i tried again. This time I just rocked him to sleep from the start which I normally don't do, and he fell asleep after 10 mins. I put him down at 9.15 and he woke up crying 30 minutes later. i tried unsuccessfully to extend the nap.

 
So keeping him up an extra 10 mins meant:
He didn't settle himself
He wouldn't settle with me
Having to retry for the nap later and settle by rocking.
Sleeping for 30 mins instead of 45.

I just don't understand him - his 45 minute nap must be due to being under tired but 10 mins extra and he is so overtired he won't nap at all?

Do I persist with keeping him up longer? Or is it possible he really does have a very short first wake time?
 

[Confuzzled]

Just incase this extra info helps…

Pushing him this morning has made him overtired for the whole day.

For his 2nd nap he cried and cried so ended up rocking to sleep again and again just got 30 mins.

Decided to try and stop the OT cycle by putting him in the sling for his 3rd nap as it always works and often gets me a longer nap - today it failed completely. I walked around the park for 45 mins with him and he was wide awake, and another 15 mins at home. Then attempted to rock him to sleep because he was desperate by this point - he just cried and cried.
Eventually did an extra breast feed to knock him out and got 20 mins.

So he has been awake since 6.30 this morning and it is now 3.30pm and he has had 80 mins naps total. He is unhappy and exhausted. 

[jessmum46]

Sorry you had a tough day things can get a bit wonky when you start trying to do things a little differently and sometimes you just need to persist for a few days to get a proper sense of what's working or not. When he cried when you put him down was he *really* upset and needing you or do you think it could have been a mantra cry? It still sounds like he was UT when you put him down, protested and then ended up OT.....but I wasn't there, what's your instinct? You know him best

[Confuzzled]

Thanks for your help Jessmum.

His cry was escalating so I think he was calling for me.

I honestly don't know what was going on with him - the fact that he was chatting and grinning when I went in suggests UT but then he was yawning and rubbing his eyes before I put him down…?

Today was unusual as he woke up at 5am in pain teething. We tried to get him back to sleep for ages and he went quiet a few times but eventually we gave up and got up at 6.45 - by the time I had fed him he had been awake for ages and was probably already overtired by the time we tried for a nap so it didn't go down.

In the end he had 4 naps today - the first two I had to feed him to sleep which I hardly ever do during the day (he slept 30 mins, then 50 mins). The third one my husband rocked him to sleep and he did 30 mins, and the 4th he fell asleep while my husband was walking around the house with him for 30 mins. We tried every time to do the wind down and let him settle independently but it just wasn't happening today 

I have however been watching him like a hawk today and have noticed almost without fail a yawn around 90 minutes after waking.
When he is able to self settle he usually takes around 15-20 mins to fall asleep which would take him to a wake time of around 1 hr 45.

Do you think the first nap of the day is always the best one to work on?

[jessmum46]

How are things?

I found the first nap of the day was usually the place to start when trying to push on a little or figure things out.  Not saying that's always the case but if you can get the start right, the rest of the day seems to slot into place a bit better x

[Confuzzled]

Hi Jessmum and anyone else who may be reading (so in need of help with this).

Things have really deteriorated and I am honestly despairing.

Today he slept a total of 33 minutes. That is the lowest yet - I will post our EASY incase it helps, however I should point out that at the weekend we were staying with relatives - to give me a break, various family members put him down for his naps following the exact same routine as me and he went down without a fuss after about 10 mins of gentle swaying. He slept 40 mins max each time, but at least he went down. For me he currently will not nap at all.

Woke up at 7.00
E - 7.30
A - 8.00
S - 8.55 began wind down routine. During routine he showed sleepy signs. Tried to rock/sway to sleep - he fought, strained and eventually cried. Tried putting down and leaving then returning to comfort him. Shh/pat did not work, picking him up calmed him. Eventually held tightly and fell asleep at 10am. Put down in cot - dark room, white noise. Woke 10.09. Attempted to resettle with rocking etc - did not work.
A - to fill time until next feed.

E - 11.00 - puree, followed by breast-feed at 11.30. Fell asleep at the breast exhausted for 9 minutes. Tried to get back to sleep as at this point had been awake for 2 hours, but could not resettle.

Put into sling and carried him around in the house and for a walk to see if I could encourage him to drop off but this did not work
Did some quiet activity with him until next feed.

E - 2pm
A - 2.30pm - very short just to try and calm/wind down
S - 2.45 - failed nap. Tried rocking and eventually sling again - abandoned after an hour of trying.
A - 3.45 - played on play mat - swung between being very happy and crying with exhaustion.

E - 5pm - rice and fruit, followed by breastfeed.
Fell asleep at the breast at 5.30. Allowed him to sleep for 15 mins before waking as otherwise would struggle to get him down for bed.

Bathtime was at 6.30, fast asleep in bed by 7.15pm.

This was a particularly bad day but most are similar. I have tried putting down as early as 90 mins for the first nap, and as late as 2 hr 15 with the same results each time. When he doesn't nap or does just 10 mins I shorten his A time if possible but this also doesn't work.

I have been in tears several times today as just finding it so hard having no time at all to myself. I welcome any suggestions.

[jessmum46]

Hugs, these kind of days are really hard . If you just follow cues and put him down when he seems tired where does that get you?  Is that what you have been doing? Is he still teething and have you tried pain meds pre nap if so?

Do you think could he have developed a bit of a prop in terms of how he settles? 

[Confuzzled]

Thanks jess mum! I've done both putting down when I see sleepy cues and going by the clock and both seem to get me nowhere….

Having said that, this morning I did have some success.
7.20 - wake up
E - 8.00
A - 8.30 - we played for 20 mins, then I put him in the sling and walked around the house tidying up.
Took him out the sling at 9.05, and did our usual nap wind down with him. Put him down in his cot at 9.10
S - 9.15 - 10.00

I was amazed - he settled himself from wide awake for the first time in weeks. I know he has it in him! I just don't know why it is so rare.

I guess I will repeat the same routine tomorrow and see what happens. The reason I decided to try the sling before doing the wind down was because he is an incredibly energetic baby - he is constantly moving, kicking his legs, wriggling, looking around. Even sitting on my lap while I read he will be kicking away and smiling and laughing - I just wondered if he might be really overstimulated even from just quiet playing with me? Are some babies like that?!

I planned to repeat the same routine for the next nap but unfortunately he fell asleep nursing 60 mins after waking from that first nap….any thoughts on why?

Btw - not tried pain meds but he doesn't seem to be in obvious pain. And I was worried he might be getting reliant on being rocked but then often even rocking doesn't work. And he can sometimes settle from wide awake.