Author Topic: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff  (Read 1842 times)

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Offline Pil4r

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I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« on: November 06, 2015, 12:43:41 pm »
My LO is 8 months old in a few days, and up to this point she has been a great sleeper (with the exception of her second nap - always been only 30 minutes). She has normally slept from 7pm to 5:30/6am (although I would prefer later, of course), but now she has periodically been waking at 3 or 4am. Normally, when she was smaller if she woke up at this point, she would rustle around for a bit and fall back asleep. I never had to go in. Now though, perhaps because she can move around more and is much more aware of her surroundings, she can't get herself back to sleep.

She had been an independent sleeper until a few weeks ago when she started to show signs of teething (but no tooth yet). We always try to get her to sleep on her own for naps and such, but lately there have been times where I've had to go in and hold her and she falls asleep in my arms.

Yesterday's EASY went like this:

6am - Wake, BF
7:15am - Solids
8:15am - nap (1 hour and 15 minutes but can be up to 2 hours- this is always her longest nap)
10am- BF
11:45: Solids (I just introduced this yesterday for the first time)
12:30 - Nap (in the car though - only 30 minutes. This nap has always been a struggle for us. And to be completely honest, because her sleeping has been an issue as of late, I try to have one nap in the car so I don't have to deal with it. I know this is not what I should be doing, but I'm exhausted)
2pm - BF
She would usually have a catnap in-between here, but yesterday I could NOT get her down. This happened the other day too, and it made nighttime a breeze (after her bedtime routine, she rolled over and went to sleep in less than 30 seconds), so after 5:30pm she began to show signs of sleepiness, but I kept her up.
4pm - Solids
5:30 - Bath
6pm - BF
11pm - DF (which I want to phase out!!!)

I'm so confused about so many things right now. The sleeping, naps and feeding routine. Also about how to wean her off the DF.

She woke today at 4am and wasn't hungry as she was just playing around in her crib for a while, and I waited a good 40 minutes before going in as she started to cry at this point. I tried to get her to sleep again in her crib, but she just would not settle, so I fed her at 5:30am (she had a full feed as I guess it was near her normal feed time anyway, but she then fell asleep after she was done in my arms. I let her sleep until 7am and then woke her (feed her as much as she would eat - not that much) so we could have a relatively normal day.

Please help - I feel desperate. :~( 

Thanks so much in advance.

Pilar

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 14:50:33 pm »
I do think that first A time is too short for an 8mo hun. She's probably wakimg early tot try and extend that first A herself. Tbh I'm surprised you've not had EW earlier on than this with those times.

3 naps a day have usually phased out by 6mo but I can see why you've tried to keep the last one in due to that 2nd crappy nap.

With the refusal of that 3rd nap there's probably a bit of OT going on too by the end of the day. What we need to do is space two naps throughout the day a little better for you don't we?

Now this is going to be tough and will take a bit of patience on your part ok? She will be used to going down for that first nap so early, but you're both going have to push through. I would extend by a good 30mims actually. Normally we'd suggest 15mins, but your A time is so short, we really have to place this nap better in the day so we can also get another nap in and resign ourselves to the fact that third CN isn't really going to happen again.

So usually you do 2hrs 15mims first A, we're going to extend that to 2hrs 45mins. She will get crabby as she is used to going down at that time. Try a change of scenery, even a snack anything just to keep her occupied.

I'm also going to presume that next nap is UT too actually especially after such a good first nap, so I'd extend that second A by 15mims too. You may still only get a 30mins nap in here, but I just want to push it that bit later to get you to a reasonable BT ok? We can work on this nap later on

Well need to hold that first A time for around a week I think given it's such a big jump. The EW may still not resolve in this time, do try and get her back to sleep in the morning like you have been doing then wake at your preferred wu time and do the As time from there. If she wakes early and will not go back to sleep, try and keep her in her room for as lomg as possible (or until your preferred wu time, I know this is sometimes nit achievable with a grumpy bubba), ssh/pat or just stay in the room with her if she's unhappy, then make a big song and dance about the fact it's morning, lights on etc and do the A time from then ok? Does all that make sense? Wdyt? Xx



Offline Pil4r

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 17:07:53 pm »
Thank you so much for your reply. I honestly can't tell you how grateful I am!!!!

Yes, I know her first A time is short, but that's when she starts to get sleepy. I have tried to push it, and sometimes she crying and crying to go to sleep, or when I try to put her to sleep, she cries and cries. I do know I need to push it.

So my first question: Do I push it from 2.15 to 2.45 right away, or do I work up to that?

Her second nap has always been a struggle for me. 30-45 minutes tops. The odd time she will take a longer one, but that's probably 5% of the time. It's like clockwork - 30 minutes on the dot usually, sometimes even shorter. So yes, I'm all for pushing this nap further. She just started to refuse the CN.

Second question: So extend the second nap 3 hours right away? Right now it's at 2.30

Third question: Shall I extend both naps at the same time, or do one than the other?

So I tried to write out her new ideal EASY (if she wakes at 6am), but it does not work as she would be sleeping when she supposed to eat. Would you be able to direct me to a resource with the timing we talked about? I have started to give her solids three times a day because I want to phase out the DF. i'm hoping this will sustain her. This and maybe topping her up with BF right before bed is what I'm going to try and we're going to do it tomorrow night cold turkey and see what happens. Good idea or not?? Sorry for asking this here, I posted in BFing and didn't really get a good answer on how to phase it out.

One more question, if you don't mind (sorry, I'm desperate here!). As I change her A time schedule, should I try to phase out DF later, or should I just do it all at once?

Thank you so much. I feel so lost, the most lost of I have felt since giving birth. She has always been such a good sleeper, and everything is changing (as it does), but I have always been able to find my way. Not this time though...




« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 17:14:45 pm by Pil4r »

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 18:09:11 pm »
I totally feel your pain. Especially when you think you've got it sussed, they decide to throw something else into to he mix  ::). You will find your way hun, I'm here to help. It can be easier to spot patterns at a distance when you're not right in the middle of it and that's what we're here for. To hold your hand if nothing else  ;)

Ok, it's totally up to you about the first A. We need to push it as 4am WU's are not acceptable. It might be a little messy for awhile but I genuinely think she's using that nap as a catch up from the early morning sleep. It could well be that after you've pushed it previously she's actually getting her second wind after the usual time of going to sleep. This is not an OT second wind but actually a realisation she can go longer and then isn't quite ready when you do put her down. I know this one from experience. My DD was on too short A times when I joined here. I pushed the A's and we actually doubled our A time in about a month can you believe?!

So we can go slowly with the first one if you want? Perhaps extend by 15mins and do something low-key like read a book etc. I would then hold for a day or two then extend again. I personally would shoot for it all in one go because I hate OT before BT, but as you have got a nice lomg nap in there, I can understand your thinking. Just let me know what you'd rather do and we'll work around it ok?

Because that first nap isn't an issue wrt length of it, I would work on both naps. It's not what we'd normally suggest as we like to focus on one, but I think you need a good old shake up of the routine to get you both feeling better. So, as the first is a good length and we're not looking to extend the length of it, I think yes, move to 3hrs. A for the second one and hold this for a few days. It may be that the second nap doesn't lengthen quite yet, but it will in time ok? Remember that, we will be working on this a little while, and we will get it sorted one way or another.

I would concentrate getting the milk feeds in first and foremost hun. These are much more calorie dense and of higher nutritional value than solids. It has to remain their main source of food until they're 1yo. I have seen it so many times where mums rush into solids, the milk intake drops and that's less noticeable in BF bubbas, next minute you know they're waking at night to eat!

How I phased out the DF was actually to bring dinner time much earlier to around 4pm so she'd take much more of her BT feed. It was becoming apparent that solids at 5/5.30 then expecting her to eat again at 6.30/7pm was not working. She was continuing to need the DF as she was hungry then iykwim? I had to make sure the BT feed was a good full one before even contemplating dropping it.

I might keep the DF for a couple of weeks whilst we work on the routine hun. Wdyt? It just might be a little too much too soon and what I did find is that DD started waking earlier in the morning when I dropped it for a little while and I want to make sure all the tweaking we need to do wrt the first A is sorted first so that does give us mixed signals. Would that be ok? I'll walk you through it when the time comes.

Ok, let's work towards this for now shall we? Remember it will change very soon, but this could be a good starting point for the next day or two.

Wu 6 (anything before resettle or leave if not upset. Exactly as you have been doing. Then big song and dance when the time comes as I mentioned previously)
E BF 6.15
E solids 7.15
A 2.5hrs
S 8.30-10.30 max
E BF 10.30
E solids 11.30
A 3hrs
E BF top up 1/1.15 (try and keep awake, this might be difficult, then do a little A until...)
S 1.30- hopefully 3
E BF 3
E solids 3.30
A 3hrs
E BT feed
S BT 6

Obviously I have put in a longer nap for the last one but you can see where it gets a bit tricky doesn't it? If we continue to have short naps she is going to be OT by BT xx




Offline Pil4r

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 18:54:58 pm »
Thank you again. You have made me feel much better already knowing I have some help and I'm not flailing around on my own.

I'm all for pushing the first A time. Maybe how you suggested, first by 15 minutes and making my way to 30. I think my LO is sensitive to sleep time, but she may not be and might just be my perception.

Working on both naps at the same time is a good idea, and what I would prefer. She's taking her second nap now, and I pushed her A time from 2 hours and 30 to 2 hours and 45. I winded her down and put her in her crib awake, as I always try to do at first, and she went to sleep after a few minutes with no intervention from me. I haven't been able to get her to do that for a while, so already some progress! I'm curious to see how long she naps for.... I'll begin to push this A time to 3 hours in the coming days as well.

In terms of the milk feeds, these have been priority, I just added a third solid to the mix a few days ago. I BF her every 4 hours (for a total of 5 times a day, that includes the DF), so just added another solid in the afternoon. I see the solids as just an added benefit. I have been doing them an hour or so after BF, so BF always first.

With regards to the DF, when you brought dinner up a bit, didn't the span between feeds decrease, so less than 4 hours? Right now, I BF at 6pm and she goes to bed at 7. I'll keep the DF for a couple more weeks as you suggested. I don't want to completely uproot her. Shall I take away one of the solids until then? I'm afraid she'll be use to so much food, once i take away the DF, so will still wake up because her tummy is used to being fed more. What do you think?

Would you mind adding the times to your proposed routine? I'm a bit confused on the timing you suggested.

Again, I can't thank you enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Offline Kellyjs

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 19:45:22 pm »
Yay, that's great news already! Don't be too disheartened if it's short again though ok? This is still a lot better than it was yesterday  ;)

Ok, if she is a sensitive soul, we'll take it nice and slowly. That's absolutely perfect what you're doing wrt the feeds. Yes, for now whilst we increase the A time the time might decrease a little between the feeds. But that's just for now. It will settle down once we find the right. A times for her. It just gets so tricky fitting everything in and the last thing we want to do is miss out a BF completely. We just have to roll with it really. As lomg as you're not feeding (BF) every 2hrs throughout the day it won't turn into a snacking habit and we don't want her waking up early from a nap hungry as that'll throw us off too.

Sorry you didn't get my last post. I did put the timings in but I'll lay it out it better this time  ;)

6:00 wu
6:15. BF
7:15 solids
A time = 2hrs 30mins
8:30-10:30 Nap 1
10:30 BF
11:30 solids
A time = 3hrs
1/1:15 BF top up (try and keep awake for this, might be difficult)
1:30-3:00 (hopefully) Nap 2
3:00  BF
3:30 solids
A = 3hrs
6:00 BF & BT
10:30 DF

Is that better?? Xx




Offline Pil4r

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2015, 11:46:59 am »
So yesterday ended up being better. Her second nap ended up being 48 minutes in the end. A nice improvement to the 30 or less we have been having! Yesterday, I tried to see if she could go without her CN, but by 4:10pm, she started rubbing her eyes. I was visiting a friend who just had a baby, so put her in the car to go home and she fell asleep. I only let her sleep for about 10-15 minutes. It took her a bit to go to bed; she was restless so I picked her up for a bit and felt she was falling asleep so put her down in the crib right away. She was still awake but ended up falling asleep in a few minutes after that. She woke up at 5:40am, but she had a wet and soiled diaper, so I'm sure she would have slept longer if it wasn't for that.

In terms of the routine you posted below, am I to feed her less than 4 hours apart now? I've been sticking to 4 hours per the book... I guess because the A times are longer and interfere?

Thank you for your help!!!!!! :)

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2015, 18:08:55 pm »
Yes sometimes we have to be a bit creative with the E times for now. Slightly less time between feeds is better than missing out one completely or waking up earlier from a nap because of hunger.

So glad it went well today, hopefully tomorrow will be even better. And don't worry about the short CN.. We do what we can to get to a decent BT sometimes. I'd much rather a quick 10-15mins CN than OT before BT! Xx



Offline Pil4r

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2015, 00:29:18 am »
Hi Kellyjs - I had to tell you about our day today, because I owe it all to you!

Our day went like this today:

5:40 - Wake
6am - BF
7:15 am - Solids
8:15 am - First nap (slept 1.5 hours, which is pretty common)
10:15 am - BF
I didn't do the 11 am solid here as I was out for a walk with her and she was enjoying it so much, and didn't seem hungry.... in the future I will be making sure to add this one in.

Now, this is where it gets exciting for me! So I implemented the 3 hour A time, and her second nap, which was at 12:30om lasted 1 hour and 45 minutes!!!!! I didn't think she was going to sleep that long (just her regular 30 minutes), so I didn't top her up before the nap, which if she continues to sleep in this way, I may do. She hasn't slept that long during this nap for months.

2:45pm - BF
4pm - Solids
At this point she didn't need her CN, which is great!
6:30pm - BF
Fast asleep on her own by 7:15pm!!!!

It was a dream of a day. I'm very interested to see how tomorrow goes. I'm hoping the same.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2015, 11:56:39 am »
Omg this is amazing hun, yay! I really hope today is as good for you  :). I'd keep an eye on that last A as it might be a tad too long, but otherwise, go you!!!

Remember we may need to tweak again soon, they tend to do that when they're used to the. A times at this age, but for now keep as is and keep an eye out for any short napping again and we'll revisit ok? Xx



Offline Pil4r

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 22:48:57 pm »
Hi there - Unfortunately, the last two wake up times haven't been great. One was 5:30am and this morning was 2:30am. It took me until 5am to get her down again. She has a stuffy nose for the first time, but I'm not sure it's related. I left her in her crib for a good hour as she wasn't crying, but she wouldn't go nack to sleep. I thought for sure the second I picked her up she would go to sleep, but I had to nurse her to sleep after....although she did fall asleep and then just woke up a few minutes later. I'm not sure what is going on.

Today both her naps were long, but it doesn't surprise me at all.

Not sure what to do! :(

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 18:12:30 pm »
Ok, I'd keep an eye on those long naps just in case they are robbing from the night sleep.

In either case, 8-9mo is a classic regression time and a yucky time for sleep. My DD went through a wonder week around now and started these long NW's too. It was hell. However, once it passed it did coincide with a need to push the A time yet again (they start doing this pretty rapidly after developmental leaps).

If she was awake for that long at night, fell asleep then woke up again a few minutes later I would bet that's discomfort. Whether from the stuffy nose or what's causing it. We always get a stuffy nose her right before teething and also with colds. The NW's could well be a cold coming on. But I would expect NW's throughout the night with a stuffy nose.

I will be interested to see if she does the same tonight/last night after those long naps. We'll keep an eye on this, as I don't want to change up much since we're finally getting good naps and she didn't start the NW's the day she started long napping did she? Any way keep me posted, we'll make a plan if it continues xx

P.s I don't know why but a vaporub on the soles of their feet work well. It may be an old wives tale, but as DD was in a sleep sack and couldn't touch her feet, I gave it a go one night. Amazing difference after multiple NW's from a stuffy nose the night before, I couldn't believe it. I still do it now with a bit on her chest. She even reminds me to put it on her feet!! X
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 18:14:33 pm by Kellyjs »



Offline Pil4r

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Re: I'm so lost and no idea what to do; 4am wakings and other stuff
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2015, 18:25:52 pm »
The night before last she also woke up at 2am. This time I got up right away instead of leaving her in her crib for a while to see if she would go back to sleep, and rubbed her back. She fell asleep in about 20 minutes (I didn't pick her up).

Yesterday, she slept for about 1.5 hours for her first nap, and only 45 for her second. She got up so early from that second nap that she was exhausted by 3:30pm. I gave her a CN; she slept for about 40 minutes. I was debating whether to wake her or not, but I think I should of because she took about an hour or more to get to bed last night. BUT, she woke up at 6:20am.

Today she only slept 45 minutes during her first nap, and she's sleeping now.

I really don't know what to do here. Things are so messed up right now that I think taking away the DF might be a good idea since our schedule is not great anyway.

Not sure what to do. I feel like I'm failing.