Delaying night feed for 8 week old and a bunch of questions

[Kangarruu]

Hi everyone,
It's been quite a while, as I haven't written since my now almost 4 year old was a baby! I now have an adorable 8 week old son and have been having a lot of questions about getting him on EASY. I was hesitant to write, since my questions were all over the place and I didn't want to bombard everyone, but I finally caved. Sorry for the ranting post.

My husband insisted we work on EASY from day one, whereas I was kind of hesitant since we had a lot of trouble sleep training DD. We had a really hard time getting him on EASY in the beginning until we realized he was having gut issues and much of the crying/early wakings were the result of gas. We're still not sure if he has reflux or not, as his symptoms seem to vary daily. I'm currently off of dairy and chocolate (woe is me), and we are using gas drops and put him on a probiotic, all of which seemed to help some.  But he still has very fussy periods, especially in the evening or any time he's trying to poop, which throw our routine. I also run into trouble when I need to drop off of pick up my daughter from school, when his naps get disrupted and he sometime just doesn't go back down before his next feed.

1. What happens if his nap is cut short and he's been up for 45 minutes by feeding time? I don't let him fall asleep while nursing but should I put him down immediately after? He ends up waking with a gap before his next feed and the cycle repeats. But if I try to keep him up longer he is overtired at the next feed and sometimes i'm just unable to do a proper shh/pat or he is simply not settling.

2. Cluster feeding...i'm still clustering at night and I'm not sure when I should stop. I do 5, 7 and a top off after his bath at 8 or if the afternoon feed is 4 i do 6 and 8 if he gets the second cat nap or 7/7:30 if he doesn't. Should I still be doing at that 8 weeks? I've tried not doing the top off but he ends up waking up or having a harder time going to sleep. In fact, many nights he wakes up before the dream feed and we can't figure out why.

3. Night feedings: at around 6 weeks he was waking up at either 1 or 2 and then between 4 and 5 for a feed. He was doing only 2 hours between feeds many nights but he was taking full feeds so I just assumed hunger and left it at that. At some point I started pushing his feeds to between 3:30 and 4:30 when I saw that he was able to handle it on one or two occasions. The issue is that he still wakes up earlier and squirms, though he doesn't cry. I end up giving him his paci over and over sometime between 1:30-3:30 till I end up feeding him. If I feed him 3:30 he sometimes he wakes in the early 6s and I give him paci again and he goes back down till around 7:30/8. If I feed him closer to 4:30 he lasts till about 7 when we start the day. Should I go back to feeding him twice?

4. I was thrilled when we got into a rhythm and I was able to put DS down for his naps with a paci and he would put himself to sleep and nap for 2 hours at a time. in the last week or so He has been having a much harder time sleeping through the time i drop off or pick up DD, or waking from his naps early even at home. He also has a much harder time falling asleep and I see he is awake 20-30 minutes after I put him down. Should I be extending his awake time? I was thinking he was overtired at 1 hour, but perhaps he is undertired and I should try an hour and 15? I have a hard time seeing his cues and I'm usually running around getting DD ready or getting ready to pick her up... I generally can tell he is getting restless when he starts to get vocal and that's usually around the 1 hour mark.

5. My last major question is a breastfeeding one. I had a lot of latching issues in the beginning and the experience was very unpleasant. I ended up meeting with a lactation consultant and things have greatly improved. I have been doing single side feeds since she recommended it, and DS seemed to be satisfied from one side till now. But I am wondering if my supply from one side will always be enough or if at some point I should start offering the the second side when his intake increases? I was worried that DS feeds were short but the LC weighed him and after 2 minutes he had taken 1.5 oz so he is just an efficient eater. At this point his E time is around 15 minutes. I thought perhaps his early wakeups were a result of hunger so I offered the second side at one of the feeds and he took quite a lot. However at the next feed he took much less so I'm very confused.

Sorry if this is totally in the wrong forum...feel free to move it to where it's appropriate. Thanks in advance for any advice, I know it's a handful.

[lauradj]

Hi there!  You do have a bunch of questions, so I will try to help you out with the sleep related ones.  I would recommend you post on the feeding board as well as those ladies have a wealth of experience around breast feeding. 
The first thing I will recommend, as a mom that juggled two under two, is try to relax a bit.  It can be incredibly stressful in the beginning.  You want to get it just right but you're also having to consider another little person's needs and you end up feeling pulled in so many directions.  Your baby is still incredibly young, and if he's waking in the middle of the night, he's probably hungry so please do feed him.  Having said that, if he's not crying, he probably doesn't need to to fed, in which case give him the chance to resettle and he may just drift off back to sleep.   
Regarding keeping the 'order of things', I was militant with DS1 but with DS2 I didn't have that luxury.  If DS2 woke early from a nap, and he wasn't hungry, we headed out for our day.  I made sure to offer him milk when it was time for him to eat and if that happened to occur right before his next nap, c'est la vie.  Sometimes he fell asleep, most of the time he didn't, but he would go to sleep soon after. 
I found that the 8 week mark was the most challenging for naps.  Both my boys dealt with the short nap phase far earlier than most, around 2-3 months and then it's done.  This may be the case with your babe.  If you can get in two good naps during the day, that's fantastic.  If the third one is a little shoddy, that's ok.

[Kangarruu]

Thank you lauradj! You truly gave me some peace of mind. I think sometimes we just need a little push to feel like it's ok to let things go a little, so thank you for that. I'm a perfectionist by nature so I really do have to resist the urge to "get it just right". Good to know I'm not breaking my son by going easy on him

[lily_layne]

Good to know I'm not breaking my son by going easy on him

You most definitely aren't! I second everything laura said. I also had let things go a bit with LO2 and in lots of ways I actually found it easier with 2 LOs than I ever did with 1 because I was more relaxed and not so focused on doing things perfectly.

[weaver]

A baby that young needs to feed at night, two night feeds is pretty average . By all means make sure he's getting enough during the day but don't try to discourage NFs yet. Often the quickest way to get back to sleep is to feed. It's also important for your supply.

[Kangarruu]

Thanks ladies! Wow good to know about the night feeds! I hope my supply hasn't dropped already, it's been quite a few nights that he's only taken one feed between the dream feed and 7. Oops!

[lauradj]

don't try to discourage NFs yet. Often the quickest way to get back to sleep is to feed. It's also important for your supply.

Yes!  Sorry, I don't think I put that across very well in my comment.  DS1 STTN at 2 months, when DS2 didn't until 4 months, I thought I was going to come completely unglued from lack of sleep but he needed those calories, big time, so I never denied him. 
It really does get easier with two because they'll start to entertain each other once your LO is a bit older.  I'd say 6 months was when they really began to get a kick out of each other. 

[lily_layne]

it's been quite a few nights that he's only taken one feed between the dream feed and 7. Oops!

I wouldn't worry. That's still 2 feeds.

I just noticed your question about single side feeding. I did single side feeding with DD until around 4 months - then she made it clear that she wanted both sides. If it's working, I would keep doing what you're doing.

[weaver]

it's been quite a few nights that he's only taken one feed between the dream feed and 7. Oops!

You don't need to aim for a certain number of feeds and I wouldn't worry about supply too much.  I would not for example wake him up for a NF if he happened to sleep but if he does wake, then I'd feed him if it's been a few hours since last time. 

[lauradj]

I also did single-side feeding with both boys.  A gf of mine told me, "No, you have to do both sides" so I tried for one weekend and DS1 threw up after every feed.  I went back to single side feedings after the third attempt.  Each baby is unique so there's nothing wrong with only doing a single side per feed, if that's all baby wants.

[Kangarruu]

You're all angels! Thanks for the support. I went back to two feeds at around 2:30 and 4/5 and he goes back to sleep right away most of the time and starts the day between 7:30 and 8. Sometimes he randomly wakes up around 6:30 or so but he wriggles around and generally resettles himself.

Is it normal for him to wake up earlier in the night as well? He's usually down by 8/8:20 but has been waking up before the dream feed. We aim to dream feed at around 10:40 but he keeps waking up before that. DH goes in to give him a pacifier and he goes back to sleep so I doubt its hunger related. Should we just push the dream feed earlier?

[Kangarruu]

He's also been having these strange middle-of-sleep shrieking episodes. Almost like night terrors, but he calms down as soon as i pick him up. Its very different from his pain cry, so i don't think its that. it's happened 3 times already. Anyone have any experience with that?

[lily_layne]

The waking before the dream feed could be caused by being overtired at BT. Do you want to post what a typical days looks like (WU, nap times, BT) and I can take a look?

If he settles quickly, I am guessing the extra night wakes are related to a developmental leap. There's a great app called The Wonder Weeks (and website) that tells you when these leaps are and their impact on sleep and behavior. My DS often gets shrieky at night during a wonder week.

[Kangarruu]

Wow sorry for the huge delay! DH is still sometimes waking up before the DF, but at this point we're going through some other EASY issues so it's not so surprising. The last week and a half we've been having lots of 40 minute naps. Sometimes he goes straight back to sleep when I give him the pacifier, other times he'll fuss till it makes no sense to continue and I just take him out and try to put him down a little earlier for his other nap. He turned 3 months on Friday and I'm a little confused if he's OT or UT at naps. For a good few weeks I've been able to put him down by himself, give him the pacifier and sometimes turn on the sound machine and he would drift off himself with limited help. The last two weeks he's needed a lot more help going to sleep, as he's been fussing a lot more and becoming upset when he drops his pacifier (this hasn't really been an issue before). I've been staying with him and giving it to him when he drops it, am I becoming a crutch? I thought perhaps he was OT so I've started putting him down at 1.05, thinking that he would go to sleep by 1.15, but I've been getting 40 minute naps. I then tried putting him down at 1.15 thinking he'd go to sleep by 1.25/30 but he is still fussy, though sometimes those naps do end up longer. I also considered that he may be hungry (I posted in the breastfeeding thread about out feeding issues lately. His feeds have shortened and he's been jerking at the breast and refusing to latch) Is this just a phase? Should I continue aiming for a 1.5 awake time at 12 weeks? At what point do I cut out the catnap? Since his naps have been short I've been keeping it. But if he wakes up from last nap at 5 he ends up falling asleep for the catnap at around 6:15/30- 7 and then I do bedtime around 7:45/8. I feel like a 6:30 bedtime would be too early and he wouldn't make it to the DF. Thanks again for all your input and support!

[lauradj]

Hi there!  Nice to see you back    I'm about to head off to bed so this will be short but sweet.  I would aim for an A time of 1.5 because that's pretty much the standard for your LO's age.  Short naps are VERY common at this stage, no matter what you do.  However I would suggest you keep in mind Tracy's motto "Start as you mean to go on", so if you don't want to always be there for the replug, I would caution you against it now.  Especially considering the short naps are likely developmental, stick with Shh-Pat or even just a hand on the back or front if need be.
Regarding the catnap, we encourage parents to keep the cat nap until baby is about 6 months old.  At that point they're generally able to manage with just two naps and not completely lose it.  6:30pm isn't an unrealistic bedtime.  My 9 month old is asleep at 6:45/7pm at the absolute latest.  K, eyes are drooping, I'll check back in tomorrow.

[Kangarruu]

Thanks lauradj! Do you mean I should continue staying in the room but not give him the pacifier? I feel like it would take him ages to settle if I did that. He does not respond well to shush pat ( he doesn't rest his head on the shoulder ever) but he responds pretty quickly to the pacifier and stays asleep without it many times. Today i left the room and tried to see if he would settle if i didn't plug him back up right away. He complained for a while. I went in to give it to him and he fell asleep within a couple of minutes. He dropped it at some point later and didn't wake up. Isn't this considered self soothing? To be clear I don't stay in the room for the whole nap, and many times I just go in and out to give him the pacifier. Are these 40 minute naps going to sort themselves out even if I don't resettle him? I'm starting to go zombie-like.

Oh one more thing. When I said drop the catnap I meant that he's taking 3 naps plus the catnap

[lauradj]

Ack!!  How did I miss your post?!  Sorry!!!
Honestly, if you feel the pacifier isn't an issue, than it's not.  A gf of mine let her kids have pacifiers until they were three and then the dummy fairy (she's Aussie) comes and takes them away one night.  No issues there.  I do think the short naps will sort themselves out.  My comment regarding the pacifiers was based on the assumption that he couldn't fall back to sleep without the pacifier.  That does pave the way to it becoming a prop so I have to let you make that call.

[Kangarruu]

Yeah it's hard to tell honestly. He's been crying out when he drops it before he falls asleep but he resettles so quickly that I don't mind coming back in to give it to him. When I lay him down awake at night after his feed he generally drifts off without the pacifier. Otherwise he does seem to need it to settle, but then when it falls out he stays asleep. The naps did improve when I started extending his awake time and he basically moved himself to a 3.5 hour EASY. So he ends up with 3 naps and the catnap became kind of obsolete unless his third nap is too short. He's still waking up 1-2 times before the dreamfeed though. I'm hoping he just grows out of it?

[lily_layne]

When I lay him down awake at night after his feed he generally drifts off without the pacifier. Otherwise he does seem to need it to settle, but then when it falls out he stays asleep.

This is how my DD and DS were. Eventually (around 5-6 months) they started needing the paci less and less to settle to sleep and eventually dropped it on their own.

The NWs before the dreamfeed might be from OT. Have you tried pulling BT back a bit to see what happens?

[Kangarruu]

Took some time to test out that theory but now of course everything has changed again so none of the same variables apply. Yay babies 
I tried moving up his bedtime to around when his catnap would have been. But then he just woke up thinking it was a catnap and was very displeased at being put back to bed. The other alternative is squeezing in a catnap around 6/6:30 and then speeding through bath and bedtime. He's been a lot more relaxed when doing that. but the problem is that he's been fighting the catnap and on days that he doesn't take it he ends up completely OT and bedtime is a disaster.

LateIy we're in a bit of a rut. We're having a lot of fighting sleep and kvetching at naptimes and even if I'm in the room to try to help he's not relaxing. Not all the time -morning nap is still pretty Golden- but way more often in the last few days. He's just a week shy of 4 months, have we hit the sleep regression? We're already resorting to catnap in the swing, because the alternative is a losing battle. But I'd really like to avoid that for other naps. Not sure what my options are when he doesn't respond to shhpat. I feel like I'm being unfair to DD when I'm stuck in the room with DS the whole afternoon.

[lily_layne]

Both of mine had a big A time leap at that age and began to fight naps because they weren't quite ready for sleep. Do you think adding an extra 15 minutes might help?

I wouldn't worry about the CN in the swing. Lots of mamas do that one in a swing, sling or stroller. FWIW, I also did lots of other naps in the swing until around 5 months and it didn't cause any problems. If you need to get out and spend time with DD, I would pop him in the swing.

[Kangarruu]

I find your advice strangely therapeutic  There's something calming about another parent giving you permission to do something you felt guilty about.

And of course you were right. I added 15-20 min and he passed out easily for the morning and afternoon naps, and slept for 2 hours. His late afternoon nap was still a but fussy, but it coincides with school PU for DD so he eventually falls asleep in the stroller.

This lovely stage lasted about a week  but what a glorious week it was. We now have 5/6 am WUs, with last night bringing WUs every hour and some more screaming for naps. I was convinced it was another growth spurt/ or a wonder week, but he's not actually doing more eating. He looks hungry and latches readily, but is on and off the breast.

I'm going to attempt to feed every 3 hours and hope that helps tonight. I'm a bit confused though, if he wakes up at night multiple times during a growth spurt do I feed him more than his usual 1 feed?

[lauradj]

If he's hungry, definitely feed him and your breastmilk supply will increase to keep up.  If he's not hungry, you can try to ease him back to sleep but I'd try feeding first during a growth spurt. 

[Kangarruu]

Not sure its a growth spurt, he barely ate all day!

[lauradj]

Could he be experiencing early teething?  DS1 had a really rough go at 4 months but no teeth, and then at 7 months 4 teeth came in within two weeks with no fuss.  However, the distracted eating is also sort of par for the course.  As baby starts to notice there's more to the world than boobs and sleeping, it gets hard to keep them task oriented. 

[Kangarruu]

Could he be experiencing early teething? 

I was wondering if that was a possibility actually. He's been gnawing on everything like crazy, but I thought that was typical at this age. He's on a 4 hour EASY for the most part now so it makes it super confusing because I keep thinking he's hungry.

We still haven't resolved our evening bedtime issues...acccctuuuuaally the've gotten worse. His EASY has looked something like this for the last week or so:

6 am stir and get resettled till
7:30 WU & BF
7:45 A
9:30 S sometimes for 1:30-2 hours straight, other times resettled after 40
11:30 BF
11:45 A
1:15/1:30 S
2:30/3 BF
2:45/3:15 A
4:30/5 S
5:40 A Bath, BF and bedtime. I put him in around 6:30/7 but he does not settle himself at bedtime. I always try WI and burp him or adjust his swaddle or prop him up on his side and then WO a few times throughout the evening but by a certain point he become OT and requires a full Shhpat. Many times this has dragged on till 8:30/9:30 or even 10! by which point he's hungry and screaming and it's not pretty. Could he be UT at 6:30 from the CN? should I aim to put him closer to 2 hours even at BT?

[lauradj]

Hmmm, is your little guy 4 months now?  I'm sort of assuming as he's on the 4 hour EASY.  Your routine looks similar to how mine played out.  I think the thing I did differently was I did the CN from 4:30-5:15 and then we didn't start bath, book, bottle, bed until 6:30 but then the boys are in bed by 7:00pm still.  If he's not waking until 7:30am, maybe he needs to be awake until 7:30pm?  It's a subtle shift but it might help.  I was/am, pretty strict with WU and BT times, so I've done 7-7 with both boys for ages.  Maybe that would work better for you?

[Kangarruu]

Aw godalmighty we are not going to make it through this sleep regression. What. Is. Going. On?? He sleeps beautifully during the day and then come bedtime and its like someone replaced him with a different baby! Today I thought we might actually have a decent bedtime. I put him in and he lay quietly for a while and made some random noises here and there. But he either didn't sleep at all, or woke shortly after falling asleep and just wouldn't relax. Nothing DH or I did helped. He wouldn't stop wiggling long enough for shhpat to work or to lay on his side. But as soon as I took him out to check his diaper and adjust his swaddle, he lay there pleased as a peach. I keep thinking he doesn't want to be swaddled anymore, because he really fights to get his arms to his face. But as soon as I unswaddle him, or try the Aussie swaddle or put him in his Swaddle UP, he pushes his pacifier out or rubs his face over and over and gets himself completely agitated. He still doesn't have complete control of his limbs. The longer he's unswaddled, the more he flails. I'm totally exhausted and I'm trying so hard not to use motion props or feeding to sleep, but I'm totally running out of options. Tonight he went in close to 8 since he woke up from his catnap at 6:20. He didn't go to sleep till 10:40 and thats only because we finally just gave him his "not so dream" feed, as we figured by then he was hungry and used to eating at that time. Is there some kind of magic swaddle that lets him bring his arms up but not all the way to his face? Can someone take the night shift? I'd like one night of uninterrupted sleep. Just one? one?? I'll give you a cookie.

[trimbler]

Hi there, just wondering how things are going now, it's been a while since you posted here, or have you started another thread?

[Kangarruu]

Thank you for checking up on me! No, I haven't started a new thread, it's just that tearing my hair out is so time consuming 

I'm actually totally at a loss of what to do but I feel like I'm just repeating myself, so don't really want to bother everyone.

Buuuuuuut I will anyway

DS just can't decide what he wants. I know, I know, he's not even 5 months old. But that's what it feels like these days.

I started walking around with him for 10 min after his bedtime feed to get the gas and spit up and various juices flowing before BT. Some nights it helps and he  doesn't do his 40 min scream fest. Other nights he still needs major hand holding to get to sleep. The biggest issue to me is still the swaddling. I've tried every swaddle method and technique out there. I've tried hands in, hand out, hands out, totally unswaddled. If his hands are in he wiggles and squirms and elbows and grunts and wont relax. If one hand is out he goes straight for his face and pacifier. He pushes it out, chews on his hand and then gets irritated that some jerk took his pacifier. If both hands are out he goes into tapdancing mode and gets more and more restless and starts to cry furiously. I just don't see a way out. I end up trying various things throughout the evening and night and then just getting exasperated and swaddling him so tight that he can't wiggle at all. That ends up calming him down enough to fall asleep, so you'd think that would be the solution. But if I start the night off like that, watch out. Oh, he's also a super sweaty baby, so swaddling him up like that causes him to sweat...which guess what? wakes him up.

I also have absolutely no idea if he is waking to feed or from habit at this point. Usually if he wakes up anytime before 2 I assume it's not food related and give him a paci, or adjust how he's sleeping. At a certain point he doesn't go back to sleep with that tactic so then I assume it's food and he usually goes straight down. Here's the pickle... If I feed him one side, he will usually wake up again around 5/6. If I offer both sides he will sleep through to 7, but then eats much less in the morning! And of course if he doesn't get a large enough feed for breakfast, he resists his nap and the whole cycle begins again. He's been having of 2-4 NWs per night, and that's not including before the DF.

DD has also started waking up from nightmares. Usually this is right around the time that DS falls back asleep. Because you know these kids coordinate. I'm grouchy and angry all day from my lack of sleep, and end up snapping at DD and feel terribly guilty. I'm also barely getting anything done, which just adds to the frustration. How did I go back to work with DD? I can barely keep my house from looking like a tornado hit it, I can't even imagine looking like a person and going to work every day.


So that's how I've been. Aren't you glad you asked? 

[trimbler]

Oh (((hugs))) sleep deprivation is awful! I'll ask around for any more swaddle thoughts, since it seems you've probably tried everything I'd suggest. 'Bother' us whenever you like, it's why we're here I don't know how I'd have got through my first year of parenthood without this place

The feeding question's tricky, I'd still get inclined to give him a full feed at night, unless he wakes much closer to morning. Perhaps you could try not feeding him as soon as he wakes in the morning, if he's had a big nf, if you think he won't take enough? Or you could just try topping him up before his nap, many LOs need this anyway, just allow enough time to do that before he gets OT. Does that sound like a plan??

[Kangarruu]

Thanks for the hugs, much needed and appreciated!

Yeah I think that's what I'll do for the time being. Last night was crazy. I got the Anne & Eve swaddle strap just to keep his arms under control, but he just kept scrunching himself up and fighting sleep for 3 hours. He would start drifting and then come to and start resisting it again. Gaaahhh. I'm so nervous to feed to sleep that I ended up laying next to him till he fell asleep and then doing the dream feed when I knew he was out. Not sure if that makes a practical difference though.

Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee

[trimbler]

Ah yes - coffee!

Just thinking you haven't posted a full day's routine in a while, do you think you could do that - perhaps we'll find some clues? One other thing I'm wondering is how he'd feel about you kind of holding his arms down for him? Really depends on his temperament, it can work for some LOs but really really wind others up! Does he tend to settle better with or without your help?

[Buntybear]

Hi there, just hopping on board. We swaddled Olly until he was 8 months old because he had bad eczema and we want to stop him scratching it. My husband had to make a swaddle in the end that would keep his arms down by his sides as otherwise they would escape and of course wake him up.

I wonder if it is time to give up with the swaddle and try to teach him what to do with his hands. Have you tried a lovey? You could hold that in his hands? Other than that I would hold his hand to sleep and then do a gradual withdrawal method to remove your finger as the prop. Just an idea, it has been a long long time since Olly was a baby 

I also wondered if he was experiencing any reactions to food still? Are you still off dairy? Does your LO have eczema?

[Kangarruu]

Just thinking you haven't posted a full day's routine in a while, do you think you could do that - perhaps we'll find some clues?

Sure, I was actually wondering if he was getting too much day sleep. I don't wake him in the morning so days usually vary by a half hour or so.

7 WU & Feed
7:30 A
9 S
11 E
11:20 A
1 S
3 E
3:20 A
5 S - This is tricky...It's my busiest time of day so there have been times I've let him sleep an hour, but I've found that that makes bedtime even worse as he's OT and UT at the same time if that makes sense. I've started limiting CN to 30-40 min
6 E & bath & E again - Then I walk around with him and burp him for like 10 minutes because he's the gassiest organism I have ever met. Then bed to fight a losing battle. I try to get him in bed around 1:40 mark but that's not always possible since we're doing BT for big sis at the same time.

Does it make sense for him to be hungry before the DF? He wakes up 2-3 times even after he falls asleep and if its too close to the DF he doesn't go back down. Like does he necessarily need to be asleep for the DF? how is it diff than the other night feed that he feeds to sleep?

[Kangarruu]

One other thing I'm wondering is how he'd feel about you kind of holding his arms down for him?

I've tried that actually. I usually revert to that in the morning also when he wakes around 6. He's fine with it going back to sleep but not falling asleep. If I hold them completely rigid he gets agitated, but if I just keep a light hold on them to keep him from moving around too much he thinks it's a game.

Does he tend to settle better with or without your help?

That's the confusing bit. During the day he falls asleep within minutes. On the very rare occasion he'll need a drop of patting if I put him in too late. But for the most part it's wind down, paci, leave the room, come back in a couple of min to turn him or give back paci and he's out. During the evening it's like he's Dracula.

Hi there, just hopping on board.

All are welcome!

I wonder if it is time to give up with the swaddle and try to teach him what to do with his hands. Have you tried a lovey? You could hold that in his hands? Other than that I would hold his hand to sleep and then do a gradual withdrawal method to remove your finger as the prop. Just an idea, it has been a long long time since Olly was a baby 

I would absolutely LOVE to give up the swaddle. I just have no idea how to go about it, as all attempts to do so have been a disaster. I know everyone says you end up with a couple of bad nights and then they get used to it. But he doesn't even get to sleep in the first place. We have an additional problem that the crib is currently big sis's toddler bed. LO is sleeping in a co-sleeper attacked to my bed, and he's getting too small for it. If I unswaddle him his arms hit the sides of the co-sleeper and make scratching noises. We're hoping to get a bed on Sunday and move him over to the crib. We have no space to put it so we've been pushing it off.

I also wondered if he was experiencing any reactions to food still? Are you still off dairy? Does your LO have eczema?

This right there is a very big possibility. I'm still off of dairy and chocolate, more out of paranoia than anything else. Short of doing a complete elimination diet though I'm not sure how else I can know. I stay clear of basically all gassy foods.

Interesting that you ask about eczema. I didn't even think about it, but he has had a terrible rash on the underside of his knee for a long time. I thought it was fungal and have been treating it with Nystatin, but it's been slow going. Then at a recent Dr appt the Dr said it was a form of eczema. Till then it didn't occur to me that he could have it elsewhere. He's had random redness on his face from certain soaps or my mother's lotion. He also rubs his face against mine a lot, and sometimes presses his face into the crib but I've always attributed it to sleepiness. If I stroke his face he moves it side to side like he's trying to get me to reach all the spots. Is that describing eczema? How would one treat that?

[trimbler]

Wow he does sleep well during the day, doesn't he? Sorry don't have much time now but I am wondering about stretching those A times a little, bit nervous to suggest that really as he's napping so well, but perhaps he does end up a bit UT at BT? Wdyt?

[Buntybear]

Do you mimic your nap wind down at BT? I don't understand how he can be such a good sleeper in the day an so bad at night? If he knows how to do do then why isn't he?!

Olly was always worst at night with his allergies. He would be awake for hours at night in pain but would be happy as larry in the day.

I wonder if you need to think about looking at your diet again? Are you sure all dairy is out? Have you tried taking soy out too?

Olly's eczema was so bad at 2/3 months old we paid to go to a private dermatologist and came away with an armful of potions. Not once did she suggest allergies but this is what turned out to be causing the eczema all along.   

[Kangarruu]

Wow he does sleep well during the day, doesn't he? Sorry don't have much time now but I am wondering about stretching those A times a little, bit nervous to suggest that really as he's napping so well, but perhaps he does end up a bit UT at BT? Wdyt?

Ehhh he's been so kvetchy during the day recently that if I wait too long he needs a lot of extra help for the daytime naps. The last couple of days I tried pushing him off a bit, but he ended up waking after an hour and not going back to sleep immediately like he usually does if he wakes then. Though he just got immunizations and he always has a reaction to those, so it could be that.

Do you mimic your nap wind down at BT? I don't understand how he can be such a good sleeper in the day an so bad at night? If he knows how to do do then why isn't he?!

Precisely what we're trying to understand.  Yes, for the most part I try to mimic the nap WD. Something clearly bothers him at night. He frequently wakes from a burp, but then even if he does burp he is difficult to put back down.

I wonder if you need to think about looking at your diet again? Are you sure all dairy is out? Have you tried taking soy out too?

The dairy is definitely out, but I have not taken out soy. Quite the contrary, i've been replacing all my dairy recipes with soy or almond milk. Perhaps I should see an allergist. We moved him over to the crib tonight and I had such high hopes. I spent 2 hours trying to get him to sleep in there unswaddled. I held his arms down, played nice calming music, even had some baby sensory light thing playing at some point (He really looked zoned out there - it was so close!). But as soon as it looked like he was calming, the arms would start flinging again and he riled himself right back up. I swaddled him up and got him sleeping finally and then he woke 40 minutes later with burps and screaming and not going back to sleep till I pumped and DH gave him the bottle right around his typical dream feed time.

Is it totally crazy to consider nursing him to sleep for a couple of nights unswaddled just to get him used to sleeping unswaddled and then deal with the fallout?

[trimbler]

Yeah hard to tell what effect stretching A times is really having when they're ill or have just had their jabs - he may well have needed a little more sleep then anyway. Do you feel up to trying a little push in A times once he's feeling better? Doesn't have to be every A time, just start with whichever one you think he'd cope with best and work from there...

With the move to the crib, it can take a while for LOs to get used to a different sleeping environment. I think we weaned DD from the swaddle at the same time as moving her from her carry cot to her big cot, but I can't quite remember...oh actually I think that was our first attempt around 4.5mo, but then I gave up as the swaddle weaning didn't go so well, so then she only had the big cot to get used to, and we ended up successfully weaning the swaddle about a month later. I realise that doesn't help you so much as he struggles to settle with or without the swaddle at BT... Tbh I can only really think it's UT or discomfort, given how well he sleeps the rest of the day. I'm not so sure that nursing to sleep unswaddled would help, as he'd probably kind of have one arm constrained anyway, depending of course on what position he nurses in. Oh sorry I don't feel I'm being much help, do try the allergist, I have no experience there but it's buntybear's area

[Buntybear]

It might be worth taking soy out your diet for a couple of weeks. Horrible I know! The soy proteins are so similar to the milk proteins that they can easily react to both.

I would get yourself totally prepared and get yourself in LOTS of foods that you CAN eat so it isn't to hard. You need to keep eating, small and often, to keep your supply and energy levels up! Don't try it with empty cupboards as it will be even harder. You can buy dairy/soy free chocolate and I would make up a kind of rocky road with crushed biscuits (I was gluten free at this point too!), dairy free marg, a bit of syrup and melted chocolate. yummy and safe too 

In the UK there is not much an allergist will do before 12 months TBH. They did a blood test on Olly at 12 months then skin prick tests from 24 months. These obviously only show allergies - not intolerances.

[Kangarruu]

So for a couple of nights we had some success with LO going to sleep on his own.  It was a combination of a few factors:

I moved him back to his old swaddle (as opposed to the swaddle strap) and swaddled him completely
I added an extra layer, as I has a suspicion he might be cold
I made sure I got him into bed before he was OT at 2+ hours
I started leaving lullabies and soothing music along with some lights

2 of those nights he even stayed asleep till the DF, which was new for us. I think a major factor there is that he fell asleep calmly rather than from the exhaustion of screaming. However now the DF itself wakes him! He usually goes back to sleep pretty quickly but I feel like i'm disturbing his sleep and he is just getting used to waking at 10 to eat. Not sure what the alternative is though, as I don't want him waking at 11 famished. Tonight we came home late and got him into bed past BT and he had a hard time falling asleep again and then woke up completely at the DF. But I'm hoping that was just an anomaly and we're headed somewhere good. He does escape this swaddle at night and wake himself up, but at least his not screaming himself hoarse. Woot

[trimbler]

That's brilliant news, well done detective mum

Tbh I never worried much about disturbing sleep for the df, especially if he's getting himself back off to sleep again quickly. You could always stagger it a bit, say 10pm one night and 10:30pm the next, but I never worried too much about that either. I do remember with DS I'd creep in and listen carefully and only attempt df when he was in really deep sleep, as he'd latch on quickly anyway in his sleep but not really wake up if I did it in deep sleep, otherwise he'd sometimes wake up completely and struggle to settle afterwards. However with DD she wouldn't latch if her sleep was too deep, so she would tend to wake up more when I did the df in lighter sleep, sometimes even break off and start looking around the room but even that didn't really harm her overall night sleep, I'd just feed her back to sleep again and she did ok. Keep an eye on it and if you feel it's a problem then you don't have to do the df, but if it's helping you to get a good long stretch of sleep yourself at the beginning of your night, then keep it if it is working

[Kangarruu]

Oh did I say we've had success? What I meant to say was it was a total fluke and now we're back to square 1. Actually square 0, since I messed with his day naps and now he's doing 40 min naps and refusing to resettle.

Thanks for the note about the DF. Will definitely keep it around.

I was curious to see what would happen if I waited to NF him rather than jumping to NF as soon as he woke up btwn 2&3. Weirdly he resettled pretty quickly without a feed 
He did wake up again around 5, but again resettled after I reswaddled him. Then he woke at 6:40 and didn't seem to want to go back down so I assumed at that point he was really hungry. I don't want to mess with my supply, but I can't help but wonder if I'm developing a habit rather than feeding for hunger. He's been fussy all day, but I think his stomach is bothering him (I tried to reintroduce chocolate because I'm a horrible human and need my fix...He's squirming pretty much like the last time I tried to reintroduce it)

On the squirming note, he has been repeatedly pressing his face into the mattress like he's trying to push his pacifier in as far as it can go. He does this over and over, which keeps him from settling. What is that?? is that something they do when they're teething? gaaahhhhh

[trimbler]

Oh what a shame, so frustrating when you think you've finally cracked something and then it all goes downhill again

Definitely sounds worth trying the resettle without a feed again, you might want to try feeding around 5ish if he wakes then another night, if only in the hope of getting a later WU, if that's what you want?

I'd really struggle with giving up chocolate, especially when so tired Is there anything else that you'd enjoy as a substitute? Not sure about the pressing face into the mattress thing - I'd just be concerned that it means he's rolling and if so shouldn't still be in the swaddle? Or do you mean he's rubbing the side of his face into the mattress whilst on his back? If so, it's possible that could be self soothing - some LOs have some funny ways of self soothing, I seem to remember DD at one time would lift her legs right up and crash them down again, this was actually a sign she was starting to soothe herself! Later on she'd suck on the bottom corner of her sleeping bag by stretching her feet right up by her mouth - would be pretty uncomfortable for me but seemed to work for her I know it may not seem like self soothing just yet, especially if it doesn't end up being successful for him, but he'll eventually find something that works for him...

Keep posting a day's routine now and again if you want fresh eyes on it Could you perhaps APOP a longer nap to help him get over his OT?