Delaying night feed for 8 week old and a bunch of questions

[trimbler]

Oh (((hugs))) sleep deprivation is awful! I'll ask around for any more swaddle thoughts, since it seems you've probably tried everything I'd suggest. 'Bother' us whenever you like, it's why we're here I don't know how I'd have got through my first year of parenthood without this place

The feeding question's tricky, I'd still get inclined to give him a full feed at night, unless he wakes much closer to morning. Perhaps you could try not feeding him as soon as he wakes in the morning, if he's had a big nf, if you think he won't take enough? Or you could just try topping him up before his nap, many LOs need this anyway, just allow enough time to do that before he gets OT. Does that sound like a plan??

[Kangarruu]

Thanks for the hugs, much needed and appreciated!

Yeah I think that's what I'll do for the time being. Last night was crazy. I got the Anne & Eve swaddle strap just to keep his arms under control, but he just kept scrunching himself up and fighting sleep for 3 hours. He would start drifting and then come to and start resisting it again. Gaaahhh. I'm so nervous to feed to sleep that I ended up laying next to him till he fell asleep and then doing the dream feed when I knew he was out. Not sure if that makes a practical difference though.

Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee

[trimbler]

Ah yes - coffee!

Just thinking you haven't posted a full day's routine in a while, do you think you could do that - perhaps we'll find some clues? One other thing I'm wondering is how he'd feel about you kind of holding his arms down for him? Really depends on his temperament, it can work for some LOs but really really wind others up! Does he tend to settle better with or without your help?

[Buntybear]

Hi there, just hopping on board. We swaddled Olly until he was 8 months old because he had bad eczema and we want to stop him scratching it. My husband had to make a swaddle in the end that would keep his arms down by his sides as otherwise they would escape and of course wake him up.

I wonder if it is time to give up with the swaddle and try to teach him what to do with his hands. Have you tried a lovey? You could hold that in his hands? Other than that I would hold his hand to sleep and then do a gradual withdrawal method to remove your finger as the prop. Just an idea, it has been a long long time since Olly was a baby 

I also wondered if he was experiencing any reactions to food still? Are you still off dairy? Does your LO have eczema?

[Kangarruu]

Just thinking you haven't posted a full day's routine in a while, do you think you could do that - perhaps we'll find some clues?

Sure, I was actually wondering if he was getting too much day sleep. I don't wake him in the morning so days usually vary by a half hour or so.

7 WU & Feed
7:30 A
9 S
11 E
11:20 A
1 S
3 E
3:20 A
5 S - This is tricky...It's my busiest time of day so there have been times I've let him sleep an hour, but I've found that that makes bedtime even worse as he's OT and UT at the same time if that makes sense. I've started limiting CN to 30-40 min
6 E & bath & E again - Then I walk around with him and burp him for like 10 minutes because he's the gassiest organism I have ever met. Then bed to fight a losing battle. I try to get him in bed around 1:40 mark but that's not always possible since we're doing BT for big sis at the same time.

Does it make sense for him to be hungry before the DF? He wakes up 2-3 times even after he falls asleep and if its too close to the DF he doesn't go back down. Like does he necessarily need to be asleep for the DF? how is it diff than the other night feed that he feeds to sleep?

[Kangarruu]

One other thing I'm wondering is how he'd feel about you kind of holding his arms down for him?

I've tried that actually. I usually revert to that in the morning also when he wakes around 6. He's fine with it going back to sleep but not falling asleep. If I hold them completely rigid he gets agitated, but if I just keep a light hold on them to keep him from moving around too much he thinks it's a game.

Does he tend to settle better with or without your help?

That's the confusing bit. During the day he falls asleep within minutes. On the very rare occasion he'll need a drop of patting if I put him in too late. But for the most part it's wind down, paci, leave the room, come back in a couple of min to turn him or give back paci and he's out. During the evening it's like he's Dracula.

Hi there, just hopping on board.

All are welcome!

I wonder if it is time to give up with the swaddle and try to teach him what to do with his hands. Have you tried a lovey? You could hold that in his hands? Other than that I would hold his hand to sleep and then do a gradual withdrawal method to remove your finger as the prop. Just an idea, it has been a long long time since Olly was a baby 

I would absolutely LOVE to give up the swaddle. I just have no idea how to go about it, as all attempts to do so have been a disaster. I know everyone says you end up with a couple of bad nights and then they get used to it. But he doesn't even get to sleep in the first place. We have an additional problem that the crib is currently big sis's toddler bed. LO is sleeping in a co-sleeper attacked to my bed, and he's getting too small for it. If I unswaddle him his arms hit the sides of the co-sleeper and make scratching noises. We're hoping to get a bed on Sunday and move him over to the crib. We have no space to put it so we've been pushing it off.

I also wondered if he was experiencing any reactions to food still? Are you still off dairy? Does your LO have eczema?

This right there is a very big possibility. I'm still off of dairy and chocolate, more out of paranoia than anything else. Short of doing a complete elimination diet though I'm not sure how else I can know. I stay clear of basically all gassy foods.

Interesting that you ask about eczema. I didn't even think about it, but he has had a terrible rash on the underside of his knee for a long time. I thought it was fungal and have been treating it with Nystatin, but it's been slow going. Then at a recent Dr appt the Dr said it was a form of eczema. Till then it didn't occur to me that he could have it elsewhere. He's had random redness on his face from certain soaps or my mother's lotion. He also rubs his face against mine a lot, and sometimes presses his face into the crib but I've always attributed it to sleepiness. If I stroke his face he moves it side to side like he's trying to get me to reach all the spots. Is that describing eczema? How would one treat that?

[trimbler]

Wow he does sleep well during the day, doesn't he? Sorry don't have much time now but I am wondering about stretching those A times a little, bit nervous to suggest that really as he's napping so well, but perhaps he does end up a bit UT at BT? Wdyt?

[Buntybear]

Do you mimic your nap wind down at BT? I don't understand how he can be such a good sleeper in the day an so bad at night? If he knows how to do do then why isn't he?!

Olly was always worst at night with his allergies. He would be awake for hours at night in pain but would be happy as larry in the day.

I wonder if you need to think about looking at your diet again? Are you sure all dairy is out? Have you tried taking soy out too?

Olly's eczema was so bad at 2/3 months old we paid to go to a private dermatologist and came away with an armful of potions. Not once did she suggest allergies but this is what turned out to be causing the eczema all along.   

[Kangarruu]

Wow he does sleep well during the day, doesn't he? Sorry don't have much time now but I am wondering about stretching those A times a little, bit nervous to suggest that really as he's napping so well, but perhaps he does end up a bit UT at BT? Wdyt?

Ehhh he's been so kvetchy during the day recently that if I wait too long he needs a lot of extra help for the daytime naps. The last couple of days I tried pushing him off a bit, but he ended up waking after an hour and not going back to sleep immediately like he usually does if he wakes then. Though he just got immunizations and he always has a reaction to those, so it could be that.

Do you mimic your nap wind down at BT? I don't understand how he can be such a good sleeper in the day an so bad at night? If he knows how to do do then why isn't he?!

Precisely what we're trying to understand.  Yes, for the most part I try to mimic the nap WD. Something clearly bothers him at night. He frequently wakes from a burp, but then even if he does burp he is difficult to put back down.

I wonder if you need to think about looking at your diet again? Are you sure all dairy is out? Have you tried taking soy out too?

The dairy is definitely out, but I have not taken out soy. Quite the contrary, i've been replacing all my dairy recipes with soy or almond milk. Perhaps I should see an allergist. We moved him over to the crib tonight and I had such high hopes. I spent 2 hours trying to get him to sleep in there unswaddled. I held his arms down, played nice calming music, even had some baby sensory light thing playing at some point (He really looked zoned out there - it was so close!). But as soon as it looked like he was calming, the arms would start flinging again and he riled himself right back up. I swaddled him up and got him sleeping finally and then he woke 40 minutes later with burps and screaming and not going back to sleep till I pumped and DH gave him the bottle right around his typical dream feed time.

Is it totally crazy to consider nursing him to sleep for a couple of nights unswaddled just to get him used to sleeping unswaddled and then deal with the fallout?

[trimbler]

Yeah hard to tell what effect stretching A times is really having when they're ill or have just had their jabs - he may well have needed a little more sleep then anyway. Do you feel up to trying a little push in A times once he's feeling better? Doesn't have to be every A time, just start with whichever one you think he'd cope with best and work from there...

With the move to the crib, it can take a while for LOs to get used to a different sleeping environment. I think we weaned DD from the swaddle at the same time as moving her from her carry cot to her big cot, but I can't quite remember...oh actually I think that was our first attempt around 4.5mo, but then I gave up as the swaddle weaning didn't go so well, so then she only had the big cot to get used to, and we ended up successfully weaning the swaddle about a month later. I realise that doesn't help you so much as he struggles to settle with or without the swaddle at BT... Tbh I can only really think it's UT or discomfort, given how well he sleeps the rest of the day. I'm not so sure that nursing to sleep unswaddled would help, as he'd probably kind of have one arm constrained anyway, depending of course on what position he nurses in. Oh sorry I don't feel I'm being much help, do try the allergist, I have no experience there but it's buntybear's area

[Buntybear]

It might be worth taking soy out your diet for a couple of weeks. Horrible I know! The soy proteins are so similar to the milk proteins that they can easily react to both.

I would get yourself totally prepared and get yourself in LOTS of foods that you CAN eat so it isn't to hard. You need to keep eating, small and often, to keep your supply and energy levels up! Don't try it with empty cupboards as it will be even harder. You can buy dairy/soy free chocolate and I would make up a kind of rocky road with crushed biscuits (I was gluten free at this point too!), dairy free marg, a bit of syrup and melted chocolate. yummy and safe too 

In the UK there is not much an allergist will do before 12 months TBH. They did a blood test on Olly at 12 months then skin prick tests from 24 months. These obviously only show allergies - not intolerances.

[Kangarruu]

So for a couple of nights we had some success with LO going to sleep on his own.  It was a combination of a few factors:

I moved him back to his old swaddle (as opposed to the swaddle strap) and swaddled him completely
I added an extra layer, as I has a suspicion he might be cold
I made sure I got him into bed before he was OT at 2+ hours
I started leaving lullabies and soothing music along with some lights

2 of those nights he even stayed asleep till the DF, which was new for us. I think a major factor there is that he fell asleep calmly rather than from the exhaustion of screaming. However now the DF itself wakes him! He usually goes back to sleep pretty quickly but I feel like i'm disturbing his sleep and he is just getting used to waking at 10 to eat. Not sure what the alternative is though, as I don't want him waking at 11 famished. Tonight we came home late and got him into bed past BT and he had a hard time falling asleep again and then woke up completely at the DF. But I'm hoping that was just an anomaly and we're headed somewhere good. He does escape this swaddle at night and wake himself up, but at least his not screaming himself hoarse. Woot

[trimbler]

That's brilliant news, well done detective mum

Tbh I never worried much about disturbing sleep for the df, especially if he's getting himself back off to sleep again quickly. You could always stagger it a bit, say 10pm one night and 10:30pm the next, but I never worried too much about that either. I do remember with DS I'd creep in and listen carefully and only attempt df when he was in really deep sleep, as he'd latch on quickly anyway in his sleep but not really wake up if I did it in deep sleep, otherwise he'd sometimes wake up completely and struggle to settle afterwards. However with DD she wouldn't latch if her sleep was too deep, so she would tend to wake up more when I did the df in lighter sleep, sometimes even break off and start looking around the room but even that didn't really harm her overall night sleep, I'd just feed her back to sleep again and she did ok. Keep an eye on it and if you feel it's a problem then you don't have to do the df, but if it's helping you to get a good long stretch of sleep yourself at the beginning of your night, then keep it if it is working

[Kangarruu]

Oh did I say we've had success? What I meant to say was it was a total fluke and now we're back to square 1. Actually square 0, since I messed with his day naps and now he's doing 40 min naps and refusing to resettle.

Thanks for the note about the DF. Will definitely keep it around.

I was curious to see what would happen if I waited to NF him rather than jumping to NF as soon as he woke up btwn 2&3. Weirdly he resettled pretty quickly without a feed 
He did wake up again around 5, but again resettled after I reswaddled him. Then he woke at 6:40 and didn't seem to want to go back down so I assumed at that point he was really hungry. I don't want to mess with my supply, but I can't help but wonder if I'm developing a habit rather than feeding for hunger. He's been fussy all day, but I think his stomach is bothering him (I tried to reintroduce chocolate because I'm a horrible human and need my fix...He's squirming pretty much like the last time I tried to reintroduce it)

On the squirming note, he has been repeatedly pressing his face into the mattress like he's trying to push his pacifier in as far as it can go. He does this over and over, which keeps him from settling. What is that?? is that something they do when they're teething? gaaahhhhh

[trimbler]

Oh what a shame, so frustrating when you think you've finally cracked something and then it all goes downhill again

Definitely sounds worth trying the resettle without a feed again, you might want to try feeding around 5ish if he wakes then another night, if only in the hope of getting a later WU, if that's what you want?

I'd really struggle with giving up chocolate, especially when so tired Is there anything else that you'd enjoy as a substitute? Not sure about the pressing face into the mattress thing - I'd just be concerned that it means he's rolling and if so shouldn't still be in the swaddle? Or do you mean he's rubbing the side of his face into the mattress whilst on his back? If so, it's possible that could be self soothing - some LOs have some funny ways of self soothing, I seem to remember DD at one time would lift her legs right up and crash them down again, this was actually a sign she was starting to soothe herself! Later on she'd suck on the bottom corner of her sleeping bag by stretching her feet right up by her mouth - would be pretty uncomfortable for me but seemed to work for her I know it may not seem like self soothing just yet, especially if it doesn't end up being successful for him, but he'll eventually find something that works for him...

Keep posting a day's routine now and again if you want fresh eyes on it Could you perhaps APOP a longer nap to help him get over his OT?