5 mo old broken afternoon naps since forever!

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi!

My now 5 month old tends to nap wonderfully in the morning unless he's really OT; however, his afternoon nap is always broken. He always wakes up between 35-45 minutes and u have to resettle. He wakes up calm and tries to go back to sleep even with my help but always ends up crying.

Not sure what to do or is this something I ride out because it's a developmental thing? I have another board around his NW and bedtime issues. However, I'm starting a new topic since this issue has been going on for a long time now. Any thoughts?

My routine from yesterday and some of today:

NW 8:45-940pm, 2:32 am, 4:48 am

WU: 7:57 am
E 8:17
A
S 10:23- 11:34 am(A 2:26; rocked then put him down drowsy while singing; went down fairly easy after I got him drowsy since he was wide awake)
E 11:59 am
A
S 2:10- 3:40 pm (A 2:35; wired and would not go down. Crying hard. Tried everything had to rock him to sleep.)
E 4:03
A
S 6:14- (A 2:34; didn't settle kept wanting to push up and roll from tummy to back; got agitated. I waited 10-15 minutes to see if he would settle. Finally jiggled him to sleep.)
E 6:58 pm
A BT routine
E 8:10 pm
S 8:21-8:52 pm (A 1:35) fought sleep got agitated just wanted to play; jiggled him to sleep
S 9:30-10:31 pm
E 10:33 pm
S 10:39 pm

Today thus far:

NW 8:52-9:30, 10:31, 3:15 am

WU: 7:17 am
E 7:31
A
E 8:57 am
A
S 9:24-11:16am (A 2:07) self settle with modified shh pat. Woke up very briefly at 1:11; resettled with jiggling and then patting.
E 11:45 am
A
E 1:14 pm
A
A 1:45- (A 2:29);A 2:29;tried self settling with modified sh pat for 11 minutes;was getting increasingly agitated; calmed him down with a jiggle of the mattress. Then quickly drifted off. Woke up at 36; tried shh pat he escalated finally bounced him to sleep 15 minutes later.

[lauradj]

Hi there!  I'm sorry you're still having a rough go with sleep.  You'll have to remind me of a few things; have you tried PU/PD with your LO?  Also, what is your baby's temperament? (spirited, angel, textbook, grumpy).  I often find with my LO, I can put him down a little early if he's tired, but so help me if I put him down late.  Do you find there is a magic time that makes a difference?  In the morning you had him up for 2hr 26mins but in the afternoon he was awake for 2hrs and 35 mins, then 2hrs and 34mins before bed time.  Is the magic number perhaps 2.5hr?
I also wonder, if he naps really well in the morning, perhaps you should really work that nap.  Let him sleep for 2-2.5hrs if he will, anticipating that the afternoon will be a short nap?  I'm just throwing ideas around because I know you've been dealing with this for some time.

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi!

Thank you for your reply! Well, he is supposed to textbook/angel but I'm convinced he's touchy when it comes to sleep as he seems sensitive to overtiredness and under tiredness. I have tried pu/pd and he just pushes me off of him. Usually shh pat works but in the last few days he has been resisting. I have also noticed an increase in NW but it could be OT related or it can be perhaps he needs a push. The am nap used to be solid but in the last few days he wakes up and I resettle rather easily. It can go for 2 hours but sometimes less.

It seems if I put him down by 2:20 he is life likely to self settle or a bit earlier but that results in a shortness 1:10-1:20 nap.

Should I stick with a 2.5 A then? What if a nap is broken so I maintain the A? Should I just work on first A as 2.5?

[lauradj]

If you have just recently noticed NW's have increased and his naps have become restless, it could be teething.  DS2 had four teeth come through with 6 weeks and he was pretty darn unhappy about.  I think consistency is best at this point.  Stick with the 2.5hr of A time.  I start the A time from when he wakes, not when he was expected to wake.  As an example; when I take the boys out to the park, guaranteed DS2 will only nap for 20-30 mins when he normal sleeps for 1.5hrs.  I take note of when he wakes and put him down for his next nap around 2.5-3hrs later (his A time is 3hr at the moment).  I also let him sleep longer, to make up for the crummy nap in the morning.  It just makes the rest of day run a little smoother.  HTH

[JennVanessa1083]

Thank you!!

Ok I will continue to stick with 2.5 A. It's hard bc I just want to fix it all but I just have to plow through.

He is teething bc the pediatrician confirmed swollen bottom gums but he isn't cutting. Can it still cause NW without cutting? Even early evening hour- 1.5 hr long NW? He doesn't even cry that much but is restless throughout the night. Last night he was up every 1.5-3 hrs (one stretch of 3 hrs) and tonight is looking similar to last night.

 Naps were great today. I had to resettle both but it didn't take much. However, perhaps I should have capped? The first one was 1.5; second was 1.75; CN was 35.

[lauradj]

For sure it can cause discomfort!  As my friend described it, bone is pushing up through skin....OUCH!!!  We medicate whenever necessary here.  Just so you know you're not alone, it looks like DS2 has just started teething again, he woke from his morning nap with fluorescent cheeks and drooling like a champ.  Round 3! 

[JennVanessa1083]

Haha awwwww round 3 ding ding ding!!!

Well at least we know our LOs are developing properly 

Yea I think I'm going to give him baby tylonel and see if that helps. My poor baby if it's not one thing it's another.

[JennVanessa1083]

Hello!

I'm posting again about the broken afternoon nap and now sometimes the morning one which was my reliable one. I have a post on the NW board which the NW has improved and I may adopt a new routine when we phase out the CN. However, right now is the in between phase and I can't seem to get A times right. Not sure if A times need to be different from each other because even when I get a good am nap the afternoon is broken or I get shortened naps (1:10-1:20) or two broken naps.

Here is my EASY from yesterday and today thus far:

NW 9:06-929, 10:18-10:44, 1:48, 5:30


WU 8:30 am
E 8:39
A
E 9:40 (top up feed)
A
S 11:09-12:44 (A 2:36; self settle but needed PUPD; maybe I put him in too soon (put him in at 2:30 A); woke up at 32 minutes)
E 12:53 pm
A
E 2:27 pm
A
S 3:20- 5:03 pm(A 2:36) self settle after PUPD; fussy; put him down too early (2:30A); woke up at 32 min
E 5:16 pm
A
E 7:31 pm
S 9:08- 10:41(A 1;08) rocked to see when he would fall asleep; woke up briefly crying at 40 minutes; OT
E 10:48 pm
S 11:16

NW 10:41-11:16 (crying from OT or discomfort and pooped), 5:47 am

WU: 8:24 am
E 8:47
A
E9:51 am (top up)
A
S 10:56- 12:11 pm (A 2:32) shh pat for 10 minutes; fussy may have been too early as he woke up happy
E 12:24 pm
A
E 1:57 pm (top up)
A
S 2:39- 4:42 pm(A 2:28; shh pat for 3 minutes); woke up at 35 minutes calm but became agitated when I tried shh pat; took 3 minutes to rock him to sleep
E 4:53 pm

I shortened A since yesterday seemed OT with the slightly longer A but not sure if I should push for 2:40 or more but then I still get less than 1.5 for am nap unless it's a bad night. Regardless pm nap is always broken. I'm confused.

[lauradj]

It is possible you need two different A times.  My DS2 can stay awake for about 3-3.25 hrs in the morning but in the afternoon he bottoms out after only 2.5 hrs.  I don't know why but he does and it works for with with day care pick up timing so I don't fight it.  If you think that may be the case, give it a whirl.  If you are going to do that though, make sure you give it a solid week before making any other alterations.  I also noticed you used both PU/PD and Shh-Pat on your LO, and he may find that confusing/irritating.  Most LO's find the Shhhhhhh sound quite irritating after about 4/5 months of age.  You could try just putting a gentle hand on your LO, that light presence might be enough to help calm him. 
Is there a particular reason you do a top up feed?  I noticed those seem to occur an hour after his original feed and I wonder if that's making him uncomfortably full?

[JennVanessa1083]

Hmmm good points...looking at my routine, does anything stand out in terms of A times?

I'm clueless on how to start adjusting the A times. I'm starting to extend the morning time of 2:40; he takes 35 minute naps then wakes up fussy and sometimes crying before I resettle him. This would indicate OT from stretching A right? Is increasing 5 minutes enough should I just push for 2:45 A?

I do top up feeds after realizing he doesn't make it to 4 hours quite yet. I think it may be because he was born with a smaller than average stomach. Do you think I should try a top up closer to the full feed? I could try to take away the top up but I found last week he wanted more full feeds at night but at this age it could have been a growth spurt.

[lauradj]

I would suggest two things; first, I would cut out that top up. It will take a few days but you'll likely notice he starts taking more bottle at his planned feeding time. It may also be that, with the growth spurt, your LO is almost ready for solids. Secondly, I'd stick with 2.5 hrs of A time. 35 mins is typically an OT nap and if he's just finished a growth spurt AND teething, that's a lot going on!
One thing I noticed between your first EASY's and your most recent, is DS seems to be sleeping an hour later in the mornings? I am a big fan of set WU times, because it means I have an idea of how my day will be organized. My boys hold a 7-7 schedule which works for them. That might be something that could help as well.

[JennVanessa1083]

Thank you!

WRT to the top up, he takes a full feed and then a top up. I have tried to eliminate it several times recently; however, we end up with shortened naps. the only time I notice he will not necessarily take a top up is in the afternoon. I think he's honestly getting ready for solids (in 2 weeks he will be 6 months old).

I am going to pull back A. It is true he has a lot going on and he is OT. I even think he has a bit of accumulated OT. I was trying to extend A to extend naps a bit in the am but I think I'm going to stop that for now and take your advice and go back to 2.5 A. I'm actually thinking of going to set nap times with the help of another Mod. Out of curiously, have you ever done set nap times? What was your experience?

With WU I agree. My aim was 7:30 and we were great for a week then we had a really bad night and he got up later. It's been sort of stuck like that but the plan is to move it back to 7:30 or 8.

[Martini~]

Are the naps any better Hon?

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi!

The naps are unpredictable. My reliable Am nap has been broken for a week now. He tends to wake up between 30-35 minutes. Sometimes crabby and sometimes content which makes me confused. Afternoon naps are still broken  with the occasional solid one. I'm trying the 2.5 A to see how it goes but it has been tricky because he's been giving me mixed signals. He's also teething so NW have increased which can also (I think) due to my routine.

Yesterday we were out and about so I can post Saturday's:

NW 8:55-9:38 pm, 10:01, 12:07, 3:03, 6:27 am

Total: ~10.5

Woke up tired and cranky

WU 8:13 am
E 8:18 am
A
E 9:49 am
A
S 10:31- 11:20 am (A 2:18; sung and patted; woke up at 34; tried shh pat but got agitated. Hubby said he woke up happy; after getting him resettled, he slept for 2 more minutes then he was wide awake. UT)
A
E 12:30 pm
A
S 1:30- 2:54 pm (A 2:10; shh pat; agitated with singing)
E 3:02 pm
A
S 5:29:5:50 pm (2:35; fussy and crying)
E 5:52 pm
A
S 7:14-7:58 pm (A 1:24; sung and patted; took 10 minutes; quietly drifted)

NW 7:58, kept waking up every 10 minutes from 8-9 rolling on back,11:26, 2:14, 4:31, 6:38 am

[Martini~]

Hmmm and he is almost 6mo old? Can you increase A time further? Have you thought of set naps introduction?

[JennVanessa1083]

Yes he's less than two weeks shy of 6 months. I can try to increase A which I started to do a couple of weeks ago but he was giving me OT stuff longer than a week so I cut back to 2.5. Today he gave me an 1:10 am nap and 1:20 pm nap (which I resettled at about 36 minutes). Leads me to believe he's UT. I have him right now doing a CN which he was fighting me on big time. Crying and pushing me off. Perhaps it's time for set naps and transition out of CN?

I have been heavily considering set naps but I am scared it won't work. My LO is textbook/angel but seems a bit touchy with sleep. Do you think with his temper my I should just go for it. I have been looking at a possible set nap routine of the following:

WU 7/7:30am
E 7:45 am
A
S 10:am-11:30
E 1:45 pm
A
S 2 pm-3:30 pm
E 3:45pm
A
E 6:45 pm
S 7/ 7:30 pm

Maybe do a CN when I get short naps?

[lauradj]

That EASY looks like it would work. I think you'll find you just have to drop the CN all together. I tried to implement a CN on short nap days but it never really worked so I just learned to push through. I don't know if I'd suggest hard-lined set naps at this time. I keep a rough time for the morning and I'm more rigid with the afternoon due to day care pick up. I aim for two 1.5hr naps each day. If the morning is a disaster, I let him nap longer in the afternoon. Try to be a little flexible, there are so many factors that can affect your baby's sleep.

[JennVanessa1083]

I agree in terms of no rigid set nap times. I'm thinking give or take 15 minutes depending on wake up and nap lengths. I don't want to add to the problem of OT since it looks like he's finally climbing out of the hole. Last night he slept better but I agree I think I have to move to removing the CN as I can't help but think it's contributing to the NW especially early in the evening. Not to mention teething and right in the middle of a developmental leap which also can affect sleep.

Are you saying cut the CN cold turkey or ease my way to eliminating? I was thinking of shortening to 15 minute tops if he does not do long naps. His issue is that he barely makes 1.5 let alone 2 hours in nap lengths. Lately the most I get is 1:10-1:20ish on s 2:20-2:30 A time.

My concern would be too much A before bed. 3-3.5 hours is already a leap. I was thinking of he naps 3:30 or beyond then do BT 3 hours from there until he gets used to no CN.

Update: I have been trying for 2.5 A in the am for a couple of days and still getting 36-37 minute wake ups which I believe indicate UT. Should I expand to 2.75 or 2:40? I haven't started set naps bc we are about to go away. But I'm thinking with the routine I outlined, the naps would be 10 am and 2 pm give or take 15 minutes. But instead I can wake him at 7:30 and intend on first nap starting at 10:15? Does that make sense.

Do you think this could work?

[lauradj]

I think your plan sounds good and I think it will all come together a little more neatly once that CN is gone.  You could try shortening it to 30 mins for a few days and then just drop it all together.  You'll find there will be a few days where he's a bit OT but then he'll likely start napping longer during the day and the wake up time won't be as big because he'll be napping longer.

[JennVanessa1083]

Thanks Laura!

I think you are totally right. The CN is what I believe to be the main culprit for things being hairy at BT and with naps.  So lately my CN has been 20 minutes so I'm just going to go ahead and cut it out since it's not a drastic change and do BT 3 hours from wake up of pm nap until he gets used to the lengthened A to bed.

[JennVanessa1083]

Quick question: is it possible that LOs rapidly increase A times? I been trying for 2.75 and  still getting what seems to be UT naps. Also he is refusing to settle and will cry when I start singing and/or patting. He used to go down easily with these methods. He's about to be 6 months in a week.

In addition, he officially dropped the CN. I'm utterly confused. Should I plow on with the routine I suggested?

[lauradj]

Plow on my dear!  It is very typical for babies to fly through a few A times.  With all the growth spurts they experience, their development can sky rocket and they want to be awake for longer.  If he's fighting his usual soothing techniques try extending his A time in small doses, just 10 minutes at first, and see if that helps. 

[JennVanessa1083]

Yes plow on I shall!!

I can try a slightly longer A. So a set nap schedule would maybe not work so well if he needs an almost 3 hour first A? How  would that work I guess is what I am wondering.

[lauradj]

I can give you my schedule for DS2 who has about 3hrs of A time:

WU: 7am
S: 10am
WU: 11:30
S: 2:30pm
WU: 4:00pm
BT: 6:45/7

You'll notice that in the morning H is awake for 3 hrs but in the afternoon he's only awake for 2.5 hrs, then 3 hrs again before bedtime.  It has been this way for the past month or so and it was the same with my first born.  He'll probably maintain this schedule until he's ready to drop a nap and then I'll just do it gradually over a month.  We just sort of naturally fell into set naps based on what the boys need and that's likely what will happen to you in time.  I wouldn't push the set naps, just aim for 3hrs if that's what is working and you'll see a pattern emerge eventually.   

[JennVanessa1083]

Ok that sounds good! I can definitely try this. So the naps would be 10 and 2 with a wake up at 7 eventually.

So last night my husband and I were out while my mother watched him. She ended up putting him down for an almost 30 minute CN!!! The funny thing is, when he finally fell asleep he was only 20 minutes from the planned bedtime! Grrrrr!! so He had a very late bedtime, NW, and still woke up early. He only had 9 hours of sleep where he usually gets 11-11.5. Should I still push the A times or shorten them a bit since he had a rough night?

[lauradj]

I'd just proceed as usual but that's totally up to you    Moms, they mean well but man can they drive us nuts!!

[JennVanessa1083]

Haha tell me about it!! It doesn't help that poor DS's teething has progressed and is causing a lot of discomfort. Looks like he is about to cut his first bottom teeth! 

[JennVanessa1083]

Soooo I finally dropped the CN today and did a 3 hour A to bed after a 1:10 am nap and a 2 hour pm nap. However, I got a 2 hour night waking! I think a big part of it is he developed a bit of a cold and he's teething harder  . However, I was wondering if it could also be due to the dropping of the CN? Is it normal for such a long NW when dropping CN?

My first A was 2.75 and the second was 2.5. If this is normal, how long typically will this long NW last? Is it due to OT?

[lauradj]

The 2hr NW is more likely due to the teething. You'll need to give it a solid week before things normalize for your LO.

[JennVanessa1083]

Sounds good Laura keep you all posted!

[lauradj]

Something another Mod mentioned to me in passing that you might want to consider.  Her child had a bad reaction to Advil/Ibuprofen.  She said about 2 hrs after she gave it, her LO woke up with tummy pains.  If this is what your using to help with teething pain, maybe try baby tylenol instead and see if that helps.  I've never heard of that happening before but it's worth considering.

[JennVanessa1083]

Oh man! I actually have been using baby tylenol but was considering switching to baby Ibuprofen since I heard it is longer lasting. Oh well I'll hold off since he is just about to be 6 months and perhaps his digestive system will be sensitive to it. Thank you for the heads up!

[JennVanessa1083]

Hello!

I have a question: DS is about to be 6 months old tomorrow, the past two nights he has been waking up every 2 hours to eat...like full feeds?! At first thought I am thinking ok...hes going through his 6 month growth spurt which I hear is a biggie. However, because I cut out his CN and am implementing a longer A after the second nap, I am wondering if this is also causing more NW...its up to 5-6 times 

I am posting here since we have been discussing nap routines and I know that nap routines as well as A times heavily affect night sleep...thoughts?

The last few days (since he has been sick) I have done 2.5 first As and a 3 hour last A rather than 2.75 first two A's. Maybe this could be contributing to the increase in NW?

If its just a growth spurt then that's fine I'll ride it out 

[lauradj]

It is likely just a result of the growth spurt.  I found with my LO's they can last about a week.  It's a bit taxing on the nerves but then it's done.  I think the key now is to stick with a consistent time if you can, to allow your LO to fully adjust to the new schedule and then stick with it for several weeks.  Babies like to know what's coming, as we all do, so as his routine becomes consistent, he will relax into it.

[JennVanessa1083]

Thank you Laura!

I'll admit I'm having a hard time with waking him up consistently since he's been sick. I'm deathly afraid of a severely OT baby.

When you say pick a time and be consistent for a few weeks, do you mean wake up time or with A times?

Do you think that's why I'm having issues with naps and bedtime...the inconsistency?

[lauradj]

I completely understand you being hesitant to wake a sick baby, and you should be.  When my kids are sick, I let them sleep until they're ready to wake.  However once he is healthy do him, and yourself, a favour and get him back into his routine. 
When I say pick a time, I'm referring to the A time.  I do think part of the problem is that the days are often inconsistent from one day to the next.  It's ok if the A times are different (eg. DS2 is awake for 3hrs 15 mins in the morning but only 2.5 in the afternoon) but it should pretty much always be the same each day, baring illness etc.  If your LO is routinely getting the stimulation he needs and the right amount of sleep, he's going to fall into his rhythm naturally and you'll likely start getting much better naps and night times. 

[JennVanessa1083]

Ok yes I can devote the next couple of weeks to being consistent with wake up and A times. So even though I'm still getting 36-40 minute wake ups for the first nap (after an A of 2.75) I should stick with it for another week or so? The second A at 2.5 seems to be working well for us.
He still has a lingering cold so it's still ok to get him back on a routine correct? I'm a FTM so this is all very new to me as this is his first cold. 

[lauradj]

If the 2.5 hr A time is producing the best results, go with that one.  If he's still super sick and needing lots of sleep, I'd just let him have 2 hrs of sleep if he needs it, as opposed to 1.5.  If he just has a runny nose but is otherwise healthy, that's just part of having a kid, continue on.

[JennVanessa1083]

Yes 2.5 is producing best results for the pm nap...the am nap I am stumped. For the first A, Ill start from 2.5 and be consistent for a week or so and go from there. At this point the lack of consistency has confused me where I can't tell if his broken am nap is OT or UT...you know?

[lauradj]

Yup, I get there.  Good job with the PM nap though!  Now that you've got that one figured out, you can tackle the morning 

[JennVanessa1083]

haha yes!! the funny thing is that the am nap used to be the reliable nap hence the name of this post lol

Question: Last night DS had 3 long NW ranging from 45-1:15 all different times at night. He woke up fussy at points but not crying and the NW between 3-4 am, he just wanted to practice crawling stance and rolling all around. Is this developmental or is it teething (he's teething) or a routine issue or both? Its never happened before so I don't know what to make of it.

[lauradj]

Most likely developmental.  Honestly, unless he cries, I would just leave him to fuss.  If you go in every time, he won't learn to put himself back to sleep.

[JennVanessa1083]

Yes I left him to it until he began to cry then I fed him since it was more than 3 hours since he fed. We share a room so regardless I didnt sleep

I honestly think I need an EASY do over...I have been trying the set nap routine with 2.5 A times but I'm getting a lot of long NW and shortened naps as well as fights to naps and BT. I think that means I need to post on the EASY forum?

[lauradj]

The ladies on the EASY forum are very wonderful and can offer lots of suggestions, give it a go 

[JennVanessa1083]

Thank you so much for all your help! It was so so appreciated!