Can we possibly be ready for the 3-2 transition?!

[ecwinters]

Sorry to come back onto this but....

Things have taken a turn for the worse - he's crawling around his cot every night, sitting up and waking multiple times!  Also, he's not settling at bed time - he's been in bed for 45 minutes and he's still babbling and crawling.  I keep going in and resettling him but it doesn't work.

The only thing I can think of is that he's now UT?  Today he work before 6 (but not exactly sure when) and we got him up at 6.
Nap 1: 9:00-10:10 (I woke him)
Nap 2: 1:35-2:45

So there's a good chunk of day time sleep there (especially for him! - he wasn't getting more than that when he was 6 months and he's now over 9 months).

Put him down at 6pm and he's still awake - no crying but showing no signs of going to sleep!!!

Not quite sure if it's developmental or something we could fix by cutting his day time sleep, or putting him down later?  Is it better to cut day sleep or make the night shorter?  Maybe he'd have been happier if I'd put him to bed at 6:15pm?  Sorry for another question!  Thanks.

[trimbler]

Hey there, sorry to hear things are tricky, I did see your other thread but haven't been around so much recently so left you in Liz's capable hands. Just read through it now to get a bit more info, I agree he could well be a bit UT, how does he seem during the day? Each LO is different in the sort of routine that suits them best, I seem to remember that your DS reminded me a lot of my own, so I'll just say what we did with him - which was to concentrate on lengthening that pm nap as much as we could (to 2h), by a combination of shortening the first nap and lengthening the 2nd A time. Then after a nice long pm nap, he could manage a longer A time to BT without getting OT, whilst at the same time building up enough total A time so that he could rest well at night without too much playing around. Does that make sense? I can't quite remember what his routine was exactly at this age, but on a good day it would have been something like...

Up 6:30
Nap 9:30-10:40 (capped to 1h10 if he wasn't already awake, just like you, reducing as he got older)
Nap 2-4 (a bit earlier if the first nap was shorter)
BT 7:30 (at the latest)

He tended to prefer nights on the shorter side with a good nap, although on the other hand he could sometimes pull 13h nights if he'd had really bad naps. Take that routine above with a pinch of salt though, he didn't really stabilise until around 11mo.

Does that help at all? I wonder if he could stretch the second A time (I know it's already longer than what I posted above, but different LO...) for a longer second nap, or do you think the second nap was a bit OT?

Oh and as a general rule, developmental stuff will improve after a while, but if these nights go on and on, it's probably time for a routine tweak. No harm in trying one now if you think he might need it though.

[ecwinters]

Hello again - thanks so much for replying.

Would an OT nap be 1 hour 10 minutes? - I've always thought that was a good nap (for DS that is!!!) 

I don't think DS has done a 2 hour nap since he was a newborn!  I'm fairly sure I wouldn't get one out of him but you never know!  I've been capping day time sleep at about 2.5 hours but you are saying your DS had more than that, yes?  Was that because he had a longer day than 12 hours? Today, we had:

Wake up (actually woke him!) - 6:15 which is a bit later than normal, but he was playing around at 4:30am after an otherwise very good night and then he resettled about 5am.
Nap 1: 9:05 - 10:10 (woke up at the usual time)
Nap 2: 1:40 - 3:00 (tried for a bit longer A time and he settled much better, with only a couple of minutes of attempted crawling! I woke him up from this nap too as I wanted to try bedtime at 6:15pm).
Put him in his cot at 6:05pm and he was asleep by 6:15pm.

He woke up at 9:00pm - have no idea if this is UT/OT/or just habit but he ALWAYS does this 3 hour ish wake up - I gave him his one feed and he's now asleep again. 

He seems to have stretched his A time to bed recently, so we don't have to do an EBT any more.  The last couple of nights I've given him 3 hours and 15 minutes to bed time after 2 decent naps and there's been less playing around before he goes to sleep and also more sleeping at night too!  I think I will keep to 12 hour days and see how I go, but might stretch them a little if he still seems UT.  I would be happy to have longer days and shorter nights if it meant more sleep but I know that whatever time I put DS down he will still wake at the same time the next morning! 

He doesn't seem OT at all at the moment.  He doesn't like being woken up but is fine after a cuddle.  It's very hard to tell because he's a very happy, high energy baby, but normally the warning signs are TOO much hyperactivity or shrieking and he's been fine recently (apart from the usual attention demanding yells at people in the supermarket!).  But playing around in the early hours sounds more UT than OT I think?  When he's OT he normally wakes and cries and wants to go back to sleep.

Sorry for the long post! 

[trimbler]

1h10 could be OT or UT, hard to tell without seeing how LO is afterwards or knowing what they usually need - sorry that's not much help is it! I didn't actually think it was OT, just wanted to check with you in case he had been tired afterwards. You never know, with a combination of capping first nap further and/or stretching second A time, he may do a longer second nap - he did 1h20 yesterday, right, but you woke him, so who knows how long he may have gone... But if you think he 's doing best on 12h nights then I'd carry on doing what you're doing, it seems to have worked well yesterday - how was last night? I agree sounds more UT than OT, and we just dealt with that as I said, by getting the pm nap longer (DS was also a short napper for ages) and then stretching out the last A, so yes, longer than 12h day but overall sleep was enough. Your DS does remind me of mine at that age - he would also go very hyper when OT which is why I really tried to avoid it, we ended up hanging onto naps for longer than most, just because A times on the shorter side seemed to help prevent some of that hyper-ness which he couldn't switch off from. But he wasn't HSN, just had more naps so more A times, so even though they were short they still added up to something fairly normal, iyswim?

About that WU 3h after BT - could very well be habit, but it's probably also just the time he naturally transitions out of the deepest sleep at the beginning of his night, I often hear a little stir at that time even when DD doesn't actually wake, but I think it's pretty normal. If you wanted, you could start trying to resettle without the feed, or start slowly bringing the feed earlier, if he'll take it whilst pretty much asleep? That's how we weaned the df with both, they tend to eat less when it's offered earlier and gradually make up for that by increasing food intake (milk and solids) during the day, until they no longer need it. I felt that this also had the effect of w2s (kind of) if that makes sense? But if he's not ready to drop it just yet, I probably wouldn't worry about it too much unless it becomes a problem - just carry on doing what you're doing until you feel he is ready.

[ecwinters]

Thanks for replying yet again!

I've had about a week of DS playing around before the 2nd nap and then only doing about an hour.  But today, he woke up from nap 1 after 55 minutes (he just wasn't tired!).  I then gave him nearly 3.5 hours A time and he did a 1.5 hour nap!  Which is the longest I ever get from him.  So, maybe it's time to start capping that 1st nap at 1 hour. 

Having said that, tonight he's already woken twice - after 2 hours, then 3 hours, which can't be OT so must just be habitual I think.  After the 1.5 hour nap, he was in bed after 3 hours and 15 minutes A time and asleep pretty quickly. 

The 12 hour nights are working well - we've actually had a few nights with only 1 or 2 wake ups (1 for the feed and 1 other resettle, which is amazing!).  He's not been waking early either so that's good. 

The other night, DH tried resettling DS when he woke at the 3 hour mark and he went back to sleep for another 2 hours - when I fed him.  So at least he will go back to sleep OK without the feed but I'm not sure I'm ready to try the whole night without yet. 

Thanks so much!

[trimbler]

Great work on that second nap, sounds like a plan It's possible he may have still been a bit tired afterwards due to the longer A time beforehand, even though he had a good nap - so then he may have needed a tiny bit less A before BT as a nw 2h after BT could be OT... Just something to consider, see how it goes and if you can repeat that second nap success!

[ecwinters]

Just been talking to DH after DS has already woken twice (he went down at 6:10pm and it's only 8:30pm!)...do you know if waking up in the early evening can be anything other than OT?

Yesterday he did 2 naps - 9:00-10:10 and 1:40-3:00 (I woke him up from both of these).  However, last night was AMAZING - he went down at about 6:10 (like today) and didn't wake until about 11pm.  In fact DH even crept in at around 10pm to check if he was OK - that's how unusual it was!  Then he slept through until about 5:30am when he was awake dozing and chatting but as his normal getting up time is 6am ish this isn't too bad. 

Today, we had the exact same naps and nothing abnormal in terms of activity - just the usual stuff.  But, as I said, he's already woken up crying twice - back down straight away - but still something must be making him wake up.  He was tired when I put him down tonight - rubbing eyes etc. so I could have pulled bed time earlier I suppose.  But as last night was so good, I tried to replicate it!  Anyway, I would have thought 3 hours and 10 minutes A time after decent naps was OK.  He'll be 10 months old at the weekend so I would have thought 2.5 hours day time sleep and aiming for 11.5-12 hours at night was OK?  But, maybe he is just OT by the end of the day.  He's VERY sensitive in general so I guess may be very sensitive to getting OT as well by the end of the day. 

I just wondered if there are any other possible reasons? There seems to be no pattern to it really. He will pretty much always wake after 3 hours but might do other evening wake ups too before and after, but they are not necessarily linked to him having slept more/less during the day and to his A time before bed. 

Sorry to bring this up again!  I know eventually it will sort itself out, but he's been doing this since he was about 6 months old.  It's makes me sad that I can't fix it for him. 

Thanks

[trimbler]

Well it does sound like progress, I think? I mean, those naps were pretty good Those evening NWs could have been OT or discomfort, most likely - any teething going on? I wouldn't rule out OT though, it may be that although yesterday's naps were good, he just needs a little more sleep overall for a sustainable routine? My DD actually still seems to do best on around 15h sleep overall, even now at 19mo (although I can't believe that won't change soon!) - there's quite a big range between HSN and LSN LOs.

I personally wouldn't have woken him up from the pm nap but let him sleep longer, anything up to 2h. He may then manage the 3h 10mins (or whatever you feel he needs) better without getting OT by BT. Or was there a reason we decided to cap the afternoon nap too? It's hard to know whether there might be a pattern without seeing the routine day to day. OT can accumulate so what may have worked one day may not be sustainable every day. On the other hand he may have had a good napping day where he caught up on previous OT, but trying to do the same thing the next day would have given him too much daytime sleep, or resulted in UT naps or something, iyswim?

[ecwinters]

Yes I think you're right - he's probably still OT by bedtime despite the better naps.  He always seems to be teething but at the moment no red cheeks and he's just had 2 top teeth come through over Christmas, so it's probably not that. 

I'll let him sleep for the 2nd nap then - although the last 2 days he's woken up on his own before 3pm anyway!  Tonight I gave him only 3 hours A time after the 2nd nap and he's done a 3 hour wake up for a feed but we skipped the 2 hour one, which is a positive sign! 

His daytime sleep is usually between 2 hours 15 - 2 hours 30 and nights are between 12 - 12.5 hours in bed, but with wake ups and things this is a bit less.  Some nights he is awake for periods in the middle of the night as well - think it's developmental as he's usually babbling to himself (he's a massive talker already) but I will try and bump up his overall sleep a bit and see how we get one!

Thanks!

[trimbler]

It's often so hard to know what to put these things down to, isn't it? I think many LOs do just get really tired with teething, and if you do manage to get him sleeping a bit more with EBT or a longer pm nap then it may not even need to be for long before he's caught up on sleep and ready to stretch A times a bit again, so just keep an eye out for that. If you do EBT, then at least even if he wakes earlier than you'd like in the morning, he will hopefully be more refreshed. It may be that, like my DD in fact, he likes/needs a relatively short A to BT, to avoid OT. My DS on the other hand seemed to need a nice long A to BT - you know your own LO best