Advice plz! New to pu/pd for rocked-to-sleep 12mnths old

[Fazzy9723]

Hi everyone,
Today I started pu/pd with my ds,  who just turned a year old. It took under an hr, 19 put downs and lots of crying. I'm praying it really does work after a few days because I soo can't see my son cry like that for long!

My main question is, as my son is rocked to sleep for naps and at night,  should I stop rocking and do pu/pd for both naps and at night? Or do it gradually and start with only at night and then after that works move on to sorting the naps?? Or will that confuse him?

Currently my ds takes two naps a day, with me in my bed (after rocking and shushing him to sleep).  First 10/11am for 1.5-2hrs. Second around 3pm for 1-1.5hrs. Often the second gets delayed or missed.  I've tried putting him in his own cot for naps but he just wakes up after 20-40mins and most of the time I can't get him back sleep.  So I would rather he gets the sleep he needs so it doesn't impact his night sleep.

 At night he sleeps in his own room in his cot. his bedtime is 7-8pm until 630-730am. He wakes on average four times. Used to take me 10-15mins to rock him back to sleep when he had his dummy. Now its more like 45 mins each time since I stopped using the dummy. also before dummy-weaning i was breastfeeding him once or twice (because he doesnt eat alot i worried he would be hungry. However as he was turning 12mnths i was about to wean him off it entirely) but now he wants it every time he wakes. I don't give in but I have to rock and shush vigorously to calm the screaching!

I've tried varying his nap times and durations, and different bedtimes.  Nothing seems to make a difference to his waking.  Whether hes sleeps alot, a little or not at all during the day, his nights  are the same. He has never slept through the night. Average length of sleep portions at night are 2.5 hrs at a time. 1 hour on bad days. 5 hours on rare good days. 

Any advice would definitely be welcome!

[becj86]

Hi, welcome to BW

Let's be frank, his routine looks great for a 7-8 month old baby. I'm amazed you can get a 1.5-2hr nap after only 3.5hr awake!

If you're going to continue with PUPD, you really have to do it for all sleeps.

Probably the very first thing that needs to happen is to abandon any plans of sleep training for the time being. Its unfair to expect a child who isn't tired to sleep. He likely seeks the breast to get back to sleep because he's not really tired enough. BTDT What I'd suggest is getting to a routine that is appropriate for him and then if there are still issues, do some sleep training. It will be far easier and far more effective to teach him how to sleep when he actually tired.

A few questions:
How often does he miss that second nap?
Do you bring bedtime earlier those days?
You say nothing changes his night sleep but you also say you'd rather he gets the sleep he needs so it doesn't impact his night sleep. Can you clarify with perhaps some examples of how his night has been after 2 naps and after one nap?

I imagine you are exhausted! Happy to hold your hand through the process of getting your LO sleeping better.

[Fazzy9723]

Hi,
Thanks so much for your help! My son's nap times are based on when I've noticed him become sleepy. It's around the same time every day.

Today he woke at 715 and first started yawning at about 945. Bt by the time i cleaned the kitchen (the only chance i get!) and got him down, it was 1045. He slept for 2.5 hours.  He did wake half way, indicate that he wanted to nurse, then went back to sleep.

He missed his second nap again because we had to go asda! The only time I have to run errands  is after his first nap. But it often goes over into his nap time. But if he's had two hours in the morning I don't worry too much as for his age that amount during the day is fine. Although the awake time in the afternoon is then probably too long?

Yes if he misses his second nap I try to put him down early. Usually 6-630. We had dinner a little late today though so i didn't get him down till 715. I would say this past few weeks I've been less strict about his second nap, since he's a year old now. So he probably misses it 50% of the time. The reason is  mostly only because we have gone out. But ocassionally even at home, sometimes he doesn't want to sleep at nap time so he either has a late one or misses it.

Yes I say that about impacting his night sleep just bcos everyone says daytime sleep effects night time sleep. But yes at the same time even if he's had good day time sleep he wakes just as frequently. I suppose I don't want to make a bad situation worse even though it's not doing much anyway lol

To say I'm exhausted is an understatement! I often have aching burning eyes and a headache during the day. I'm just not getting enough hours of sleep! Even after I put ds down it takes ages for me to fall asleep. And even when ds is having a rare 4/5 hour sleep portion, im tossing in bed bcos I'm not used to it lol. I've got to do something. It can't go on like this!

[Fazzy9723]

I forgot to mention something vital. A couple months ago this extra awful thing started where during one of my son's wakings he would become wide awake. It would then take me 2-3hrs of rocking and shushing to get him back to sleep again. This awake session could happen at any point during his bedtime. Near the beginning middle or end.  He did this last night, woke at 330am and didn't fall asleep again till 530am. I find this particularly frustrating and upsetting, and there have been times where I've come to tears, gotten irritated at ds or left him in the cot and walked out for a break (with him crying soon as I leave him of course). But last night as I decided to stop rocking and do pupd (well just putting him down) I felt okay. Probably bcos of hope for the new method to work.

Last couple weeks ds has been waking 4x atleast. As there were other signs i thought he was teething (molars! Already has all front teeth) but then last 2 days it's gone down to 2x. I'm not sure why. The tooth hasn't popped out yet. Is it taking a break??


This is yesterday & last nights log-

Morning woke 645am
First nap 1040am,  2.5hrs
Refused 2nd nap

Bedtime: Rocking. Fell asleep by 8pm
Woke up 840. Pu/pd x19.  Lots of crying. Asleep by 945.
Woke 330 am. Wide awake! Babbling. Pupd x14.  Cried only first 3x. Asleep 5am for 15mins then woke up. Pupd X2 and Slept by 535.
Morning Woke 715.

Total night sleep  8hrs. 2 night wakings.



This is last week's log-

First nap for 1.5hrs at 1040am
No 2nd nap

Bedtym 715.
Woke 1015. Fed. Put down 3x (pantley method) Slept by 1115.
Woke 1235. Put down 2x. Slept by 130
Woke 345. Fed. Very awake! Slept by 545
Woke 645.

Nap total 1.5hrs
Bedtym total  7.75hrs,  3 NW

[Fazzy9723]

This is a log from nearly 3 wks ago-

First Nap 1.5hrs
Second Nap 40mins

Bedtime: Fed 730.rocked.Slept 805
Woke 820. Dummy. Slept  830
Woke 925. Rocked. Slept 950
Woke 130. Fed. Rocked. Wide awake! Slept 430.
Woke 630.

Also another point, my son doesn't really resist his first nap or his bedtime,  and if he does its just a short whinge and he's out after few minutes of rocking. And even the night time 'awake sessions' the problem isn't that he's resisting.  He will compliantly lie there in my arms with his eyes closed.  Seems like he's trying to sleep too but he just can't.  Obviously after two hours of trying he has had enough and just wants to get up and babble but I don't blame him lol. But at 3am I can't really let him go and play can i lol. He does yawn and rub his face  though, so he is tired....I wish I knew why he becomes so awake!

Sorry my posts are so long but I'm thinking the more detail I give the better you can advise me, and I'm a little desperate for help right now!

[becj86]

I think if you go to one nap in the middle of the day and set a consistent bed time, say 7pm, you'll have some data with which to tweak. The long happy wakings in the early hours of the morning are from that first nap being too early in the day and the wakings shortly after going to bed are over tired from the long a time to bed. Given he copes as well as he does, I think you're best off having one nap at say 11:45 or 12. Expect that he will probably wake from that early from OT (be ready to resettle) the first few days but thereafter it should start to settle. once your routine is a bit more stable, you may find those wakimgs reduce a lot anyway without the sleep training. Of course you can use PUPD as you implement the new routine if you wish. Seems to be something he's doing alright with, really.

[Fazzy9723]

Thanks so much for your suggestion, sounds like it could be our solution! I had actually been in two minds about scrapping the second nap for a little while, since he's not consistently having it anyway. I just hung on because Ive read that 2 naps are better untill lo is 18 mnths of age. But then every baby is different and if it helps him sleep better at night then it's definitely  worth a try. It didnt occur to me that the awake time between nap and bed would cause his 'awake sessions' at night. But it makes sense (and I'm desperately hoping we have found the answer! Lol).

Ds only woke once last night (yeyy!), however he was then up for 3 long hours....at 1am!

I shall implement your suggestion post haste and come back with the results!

Thanks again

[becj86]

Best of luck! The first few days may be a bit rocky but stick at it for at least a week and we should then have an idea of how he'll go.

[Fazzy9723]

Hi
So feedback afer a week of routine adjustment.....problem not solved!
My son has been having one nap a day (12pm-2/230pm).  But his nights are erratic. He's had one good night then three bad nights then two good nights then bad nights again! Tonight he's already woken three times in two hours! This is my log for the past week:

 (N=hours of nap, WA=hours of 'wide awake episode', NW=number of night wakings, EW=early morning waking)

18 nov - N1.75    NWx2     WA 2      EW
17 nov - N2          NWx1     WA 0     EW
16 nov - N2          NWx1     WA 0
15 nov - N3          NWx4     WA 2.5
14 nov - N2          NWx4     WA 1.5
13 nov - N2.5      NWx4     WA 1.5
12 nov -  N2.75   NWx0!    WA 2.5   EW

The first night, for the first time in his little life he slept through the whole night!  (Except for the beginning bit where he just fell asleep in the car and woke up when I put him in his cot. Then took two and half hours to go back to sleep). But still he's never slept 945pm-620am straight before!
But he hasn't done a repeat performance of that since!

[Fazzy9723]

When he wakes most of the time he's quiet soon as I pick him up. There have been some ocassions where he's been screaching a little at first but I put it down to him wanting to nurse/have his dummy. Both which I stopped a few weeks earlier. Then I also thought he might be teething because he's been drooling a bit and putting his fingers in his mouth. But I'm not sure because he doesn't do that  every day and previously when he teethed he would wake up at night very upset and it was obvious to me what it was. He has 8 teeth and it was always clear when it was happening. But now, he doesn't seem in discomfort when he wakes, he doesn't whine, nor suck his fingers.

I'm not sure what else to do. If he is actually teething then sleep training isn't appropriate is it?

[becj86]

So you have record of the times he woke during the night and for the day?

[Fazzy9723]

Yes I do. Would you like to see the full week?

[Fazzy9723]

19 nov -

Nap 1210-230. Woke twice

Bedtime 8pm
Woke 845. Slept 855
Woke 915. Slept 935.
Woke 10pm. Slept 1020
Woke 1155. Slept 1225.
Woke 230. Slept 315
Woke 445. Wide awake. Slept 615.
Morning 7am

Nap total 2.25hrs
Bedtime total  7.25 hrs. Woke x6!!
-------------------------
18 nov - 

Nap 1220 2pm

Bedtime 745
Woke 1245. Wide awake. Slept 245!
Woke 330. Slept 345
Woke 530. Couldn't settle, kept drifting off and waking. Gave up at 7am

Nap total 1.75hrs
Bedtime total   7.5. Woke x3
----------------------------------
17 nov -

Nap 1pm -3pm. Woke once

Bedtime 745
Woke 915. Slept 930.
EW Morning 620 (wide awake. Wouldn't go back to sleep)

Nap total 2hrs
Bedtime total 10.25hrs
------------------------------
16 nov -

Nap 1230-230. Woke twice

Bedtime 730
Woke 130. Slept 215
I woke him 545 (to travel)
Slept in car 7am.
Morning 730

Nap total 2hrs
Bedtime total 10hrs! 
---------------------------
15 nov -

Nap 1230-330. Woke 2/3x
 
Bedtime 7pm
Woke 1040. Slept 1140
Woke 145. Slept 415!
Woke 615. Slept 645
Morning  8am

Nap total 3hrs
Bedtime total  8.75.  Woke x3
-------------------------
14 nov -

Nap 1230-230. Woke twice

Bedtime  730
Woke 830.  Slept 850
Woke 1030. Slept 1045
Woke 1am. Slept 145
Woke 320. Slept 5am
Morning  745

Nap total  2hrs
Bedtime total  9.25 hrs. Woke x4
------------------------
13 nov -

Nap 1210-240 woke twice

Bedtime 710
Woke 745. Slept 830
Woke 930.  Slept 945
Woke 2am. Slept 330.
Woke 545. Slept 615
Morning  715

Nap total  2.5hrs
Bedtime total   8.75, woke x4
------------------------
12 nov -

Nap 12-2.45pm. Woke x2

Bedtime 7pm asleep (in car) but woke up when moved to cot. Wide awake. Slept 930
EW Morning  610 (wide awake. Wouldn't go back to sleep)

Nap total  2.75hrs
Bedtime total 8.75 woke x0 !

[Fazzy9723]

I round the hours off to the nearest quarter when counting total time

The dates given are for the daytime of that day. But obviously the night goes into the following day.

As you can see last night was awful!  He woke more last night than he did when he had a cold and a chesty cough!

He didn't fuss though. And Let me put him back to sleep fairly quickly. Except for his wide awake episode at 445am. But he didn't fuss them either.

Do you see any patterns in his wakings? ? I can't see any.  Looks pretty random to me

[becj86]

Ok, so those multiple waking in the first 3-4hr after going to bed for the night are OT - that may settle down as he gets more used to the routine. You had a few good days in there and this current worsening looks like a fairly classic regression to me.

Has he been sick through this whole time? How is he behaving during those long wakings?

If he is not fussing and is just awake, are you going in and trying to get him back to sleep? If so, I'd advise against that - you could be stopping him from going back to sleep himself and actually reducing his sleep by distracting him.

Is it possible for you to have a more consistent bedtime?

[Fazzy9723]

No he hasn't been sick this whole time.
During his awake episodes he lies in my arms calm and quiet. Seems like he's is trying to go back to sleep.  Bt he can't seem to. After a long while he's tired of lying there and tries to get up. He babbles sometimes too. On those couple of ocassions where I gave up trying to put him back to sleep out of tiredness, ive just put him in his cot awake and hes happily (as long as I'm still there) stood there babbling and banging the rail or cruising around the cot.  You see, wide awake!

No whenever he wakes at night I don't rush to him right away. I wait to see if he's really awake. Then I'll go in if he cries/whinges. I wouldn't go in if he's awake, content and not crying (which is never).  It's extremely rare for him to make noises and just go back to sleep.

Whenever Ive gone to him 95% of the time he's stood up in his cot closest to the door, waiting for me. Once I pick him up the  he's quiet.

Lol yes I thought you might pick up on the slightly varied bedtimes. I really do try hard for his sake, but I've never been that great at time keeping. Will try harder of course

So how long does regression  last? Seems a bit soon for regression when he's only had 2 or 3 good nights.

What is the best thing to do once Ive realised hes wide awake? Continuously rocking him (in rocking chair of course)  is very  frustrating, but if I leave him in his cot then he will just play and babble, which won't help him get back to sleep any time soon.

[becj86]

So how long does regression  last? Seems a bit soon for regression when he's only had 2 or 3 good nights.

It tends not to be too long, its really just a check to see if this is how its going to be now, yk? You should see things going back to being better within a week though I'd expect less than that.

What is the best thing to do once Ive realised hes wide awake? Continuously rocking him (in rocking chair of course)  is very  frustrating, but if I leave him in his cot then he will just play and babble, which won't help him get back to sleep any time soon.

Yeah, leave him. If you go to him and interact, he will keep waking. I'm not saying don't attend his needs, I'm saying if he's not asleep, that's not on you. You can only give him the opportunity and the skills to sleep. Actually sleeping is up to him.

[Fazzy9723]

Ok so should I do as follows- when he wakes up and cries, I go pick him up, rock him a bit, if he's not easily drifting off put him down anyway? I know he wouldn't let me put him down straight away.

Well did i try this last night. Ds had an awake episode lol .  I rocked for a while and when it wasn't working i just laid him in his cot. He did seem to try to go back to sleep himself (with my hand on him a few minutes).  He would be still a little while then toss and turn. He would sit up a few times as well. After a while he got upset, I guess he got frustrated.  So I picked him up again, rocked him a short while and he was out. Took 2 hours still. However I prefer that to rocking him the entire time.