Author Topic: EMW please help! (Read 3297 times)

Lacey1989 · « **on:** November 13, 2015, 13:00:06 pm »

I really do not know how to tackle these early morning wake ups. Dd is nearly 7 months her routine is as follows;
Wake: 5-530am (do not get up till at least 615)
Bottle: 630am
Solids: 8am
Nap: 8/830am at a push awake around 930-10
Solids: 11-1130
Nap: 1145 if woke at 930 1215 if woke at 10
Awake: anytime between 1300-1400
Bottle: 1430
CAtnap: around 1530 if woke at 1 or 1600 for about 30mins
Dinner: 5
Bath 6/bottle 615
Bed 630-45

I have tried a later bedtime at 7pm but makes no difference. Earlier at 620 no difference. I really do not know what routine my DD should be on and she seems tired a lot of the time!
Please help!!!

Kellyjs · « **Reply #1 on:** November 13, 2015, 20:01:57 pm »

Hi and welcome to the forums

I hate EMW so I feel your pain there.

I think you're on the verge of the 3-2 nap transition hun. You've probably been there a while and not realised it. I'll post a link for you to have a read through. It explains it better than I can

It looks like you're getting a very decent nap around lunchtime. Am I right that could be up to 2/3hrs Or am I reading that wrong? We might need to look at reducing her day sleep slightly if you'd like the wu to be later in the morning. Atm with the lesser time you're expecting around 4hrs day time sleep which could be considered high. Have you noticed she needs more than the average sleep before?

Then you're asking her to have around 12hrs over night sleep there hun which frankly would not even be doable with even a high sleep needs bubba. Especially with that amount of day sleep. So basically you're not really getting an EMW if you see what's I mean?

Ok, so you've got a coupes of choices hun. Either we reduce the day sleep slightly and see if that helps make the nights longer. Or else we look at moving BT a lot later in time to achieve the 11hrs ONS but a decent wu for you. That'll probably mean a BT of 7.30pm or later to achieve a 6.30pm wu. This will have to be done gradually though ok? Don't just jump straight into it or else it could make matters worse! We'd have to move the whole day later thus enforcing a later wu and that does take time. I'll post the links, have a read through and see which option you would prefer and would fit in with family life and we'll make a plan ok? Xx

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

How to Adjust to Daylight Savings

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 14, 2015, 05:47:42 am »

Thanks for your reply! I'd probably go with reducing her daytime sleep, as she has always wanted a bedtime by 7pm. How do I go about changing her nap timings? Do I push her morning nap out? She can't really stay awake longer than 2.5 hours or I'd try a 3-2 nap schedule. She only managed 3 naps about 6 weeks ago.

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 14, 2015, 05:55:40 am »

Oh also meant to reply and say yes she usually naps about 1-2 hours for lunch depending.

Kellyjs · « **Reply #4 on:** November 14, 2015, 17:49:35 pm »

Ok, of she's only managed to go to 3 naps a little while ago we could take this slowly for you hun.

If she can't go much longer than 2.5hrs for the first A I'd stick wi that for a little while. I take it you're doing that based on the get out of bed time than the actual wu time which is totally fine. I'm actually thinking that might have to be increased in time given she's only napping an hour atm.

You're working on 2hrs 15mins A for the second one aren't you hun? I would increase that one to 2.5hrs and hold it for a few days. I would make sure that nap doesn't go over two hours max.

Then hopefully we can look at capping that CN to 20 mins for now that should keep BT the same. I think there will be more tweaking to be done but if we hold this for a couple of days, let's see if it makes any difference at all xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 14, 2015, 19:02:00 pm »

That sounds like a great plan. Today went well I think.. Wake up was about 530 then stayed in bed until 630am bottle 645. Then first nap 850-10. Nap 2 1230-215. A quick cat nap at 430-450. Just gone to bed at 7pm. Does this sound like an ok nap routine? I will keep her at 845am morning nap for a few days then up it to 9am? Each nap I have had to wake her! What happens on days where we have to venture out? I try to go out during awake times but sometimes doesn't always work?? Thanks for your help 😀 fingers crossed for the morning! Ax

Kellyjs · « **Reply #6 on:** November 15, 2015, 09:28:31 am »

This is great. Effectively you're setting the first nap and try to keep her in bed for as long as possible in the morning telling her it isn't time to get up yet. I do think it'll need to be pushed out like you said, but we'll go slowly. Maybe hold this same time today, then we can look at moving the first nap out to 9am tomorrow then the next nap will be later as well.

Ahh the age old dilemma of going out or not. Tbh I was regimented in only going out for awake times, tried to be at home for nap times so she could have every nap in bed. Yk what happened? A bubba that refuses to sleep anywhere else except an odd CN in the car

. If I was to do it again I would make more of an effort to be out and about and if she fell asleep then to hell with it, there was always the next nap. I can only advise hun, and hindsight is a beautiful thing

or not! Some people try for the first nap at home then if the next nap is out and about, then fine you can always do EBT. Others have to apop the last CN anyway and always have to aim to be out in the stroller or car at that time. Others have siblings that they need to pick up from school so have to work around that. IME none of these things have ever harmed a LO. So it's totally up to you. What I have found is that one day here and there totally off the routine doesn't matter too much. You may get a couple of OT NW's that night or not. And tbh the days we had been out and about at that age and only managed two 30mins naps she slept like a log that night as it wasn't accumulated OT. Hth xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2015, 08:29:33 am »

Yes my little one doesn't tend to nap more than 30 mins when we are out. This morning I think she woke at 545 and went back to sleep and I heard her wake around 630 😀 hopefully we are getting there! Is the morning nap being later the main thing which helps her to slee later? If she doesn't nap well at her second nap let's say if we are out. Then is it ok for her to have a nap at 330-415ish? Thanks again xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2015, 17:46:13 pm »

Yay to the later wu! Yes aside from teething the main reason for waking early is the fact the first nap is too close to their wu time and they just self regulate by extending their own A time. Frustrating I know, but once you check for teething and sure it isn't that it's normally that first nap. Some chronic EW's ie after only 10hrs sleep can signal OT but you're getting a good amount of overnight sleep so we know it's not that.

Yes, you could do a CN around then. I probably would aim for a max of 45mins and shoot for EBT around 2hrs later maybe even sooner with the lack of sleep from the day overall. Judge her mood and be prepared to get into bed a little earlier if needs be. Many bubbas around that age would need at least 1.5-2hrs after a full sleep cycle to BT but it's really hard to judge given it was an off day xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 08, 2015, 21:51:40 pm »

Hi again! The 530am wakeups have begun again!! She is off her food atm so I'm thinking she's beginning to teeth!? Nearly 8 months old and hasn't got any teeth as of yet. We have been away the passed few days and she has been extremely tired. Woke at 530/45am last few days. Today went like this: awake 530/ nap1;850-1005 (I woke her from this nap)
Nap 2; 1235-230 ( I woke her)
1600-30 (had fallen asleep on my shoulder, never does that!)
Bed 630
What is an ideal nap routine for an 8 month?

Kellyjs · « **Reply #10 on:** December 09, 2015, 20:09:07 pm »

Ha ha you might be asking the wrong person that one! We were on our way to one nap!!

That being said there's a wide variation of what's considered normal at this age. A times should be nearing 3.5hrs or so, but that's not for all. We just need to base yours on what you tell us and we'll make a new plan.

EW and off food is definitely a sign of teething. Ibuprofen works the best for this.

It's also really hard to adjust A times when they're teething as they give us mixed signals like short naps and EW so we tend to not try and tweak things too much. That being said, I do think your routine does need looking at again so we can better balance your day and eliminate that 3rd CN entirely from now on in. That'll cause you more issues than it's worth at this age now. Although I bet that was a nice cuddly nap

What we do know that after a short night she's more than capable of doing nearly 3hrs 20mins A first thing. You might have to try and extend that 2nd A a bit (to 3hrs perhaps) to get that nap a little later and keep your 6.30pm BT whilst these EW are going on. Wdyt? Xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 14, 2015, 07:17:31 am »

Hi again. So the passed few days her naps have been 9-1030ish then 1245-215/30 and then a short CN at 4/430 for 30 mins. She really does get tired around 1hr45/2 hours she tends to put her thumb in, rubs eyes. Unsure why this is as she sleeps 11-11.5 hours at night and a lot in the day? I was thinking her first nap could be extended to 915, until 1030/45 then 1-230/3. Would she be able to stay awake from 230-615? Or is that far too long? She starts nursery in January so I'd like to keep the afternoon nap around 1pm as that's when they sleep there.

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 14, 2015, 07:19:31 am »

Also meant to say I think she is now waking about 6am so a bit better!

Kellyjs · « **Reply #13 on:** December 14, 2015, 15:20:09 pm »

So glad the wu is better for you.

The tired cues at the usual going down time can be learned behaviour. I learnt this the hard way myself although we were getting short naps.

If the naps are still a decent length and the night sleep is going well, I'd actually leave as is for a bit. I think we should consider her high sleep needs (HSN) and good to know for the future. We have to judge these things on the individual LO so yes, 2hrs is extremely low of an A time for her age, but she's not short napping, not staying awake for hours on end at night, still taking decent ONS and is not fighting you going to sleep. I'm actually extremely jealous

Are you happy with the 6am wu or would you prefer it to be later? All I'm thinking is as she's obviously happy with the total amount of sleep she's having is 24hrs, we could well shift the routine like we do with daylight savings. So shifting the whole day on by 15 mins for the first 3-4 days then shifting again which would get you to a 6.30am - 7pm BT sort of routine. Wdyt? Xx

Moving Wake Up and Bedtime

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 14, 2015, 16:56:55 pm »

Yes that sounds like an idea. She is mentally quite active and wanting to do things she cannot do so tires herself out a lot of the time... Hence the 2-2.5 awake time!? I've given her a short 20minute nap CN today to see if that still gets her through. I'd rather she woke at 630am... Some days she has slept 630pm-7am but unsure why on those days. How do I shift the day so she wakes at 630? Would that mean putting her to bed at 730pm? As I don't think she will go until 730. I've tried till 7 and she just falls asleep on me lol. Thanks for your input

Kellyjs · « **Reply #15 on:** December 14, 2015, 18:07:47 pm »

No we don't just extend the last A, that could have a negative affect and make her wake earlier.

We shift the whole day. So first day, add 15mins onto the first A and that'll consequently shift everything else later including BT. You hold that for a few days, check how the wu is going in the morning (it might not still be 6.30am yet), then you do the exact same thing again.

So your new nap times will be 9.15-10.45, 1-2.30/45, 4.15/45 then BT 15mims later than usual. So just the first A is extended on the first day. This would keep the same A times for the rest of the day. Also I think it'll fit in better with daycare you mentioned? Then the CN can be in the car on the way home perhaps? Xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 17, 2015, 09:53:27 am »

Back again. She had a bad day yesterday therefore woke at 540 today 😔. Only napped 9-1020 (she was so tired had to put her down early) then 1255-155 then cat nap 410-435. Today have put her down at 910-15 mn. Should I ever limit her morning nap like Gina ford suggests? As I've read that they use this as nighttime sleep? Or do I just let her have 1.5 hours to prevent overtiredness? Is 3.5 hours daytime sleep too much for a 8 month old? If she were to sleep until 3pm should I try and not let her CN and bed at 615?

Kellyjs · « **Reply #17 on:** December 17, 2015, 18:00:47 pm »

I can't comment about other books I'm afraid. We don't use set routines like that, we respond to our Lo's and the signs they show us and adapt a routine that fits well for them and also with your family life. I really don't know much about that other authors methods $:-\$

For some going through the 2-1, yes we can limit the morning nap, or afternoon one (whichever suits them best) but that's because the A times are so high that it gets impossible to fit it into one day. I don't think you're quite there yet however. A times need to be nearing the 4hrs + mark.

It some ways yes, bubbas can use the first nap as an extension of their night sleep but that's because the first A is too short and needs extending. It's their way of naturally extending their own A time by waking early. Saying that though you were getting 11hrs ONS weren't you? So technically not an EW so I think it's really just a case of shifting the whole day for you and actually extending the A times to get rid of that CN at the end of the day for you now. At 8mo that's got to be on it's way out, even for a HSN LO.

How was the night sleep before the 5am wu? What time was BT? Xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 17, 2015, 18:22:48 pm »

Okay I'll stick with this plan. If I do no CN would bedtime be 6pm lets says she woke at 1430/3pm?? Will ebt mean more emw? She used to sleep 630/7 till 6/630 but only napped 45 mins a time 5/6 times a day then suddenly her sleep matured to proper naps! She's already tugging her ears tired this eve do I push her to 645pm?

Kellyjs · « **Reply #19 on:** December 17, 2015, 18:53:55 pm »

I think we need to phase out the CN by adding more A time onto the other two I'm afraid. I'm so wary of a lomg A to BT as that can then cause EW which is definitely not what we want! The 3-2 is a process and we will get there gradually. Oh I used to have a serial cat napper too. Lots of 45mins naps!

Did you check for teeth? Tugging on ears can be a sign of teething? Xx

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2015, 19:20:25 pm »

Oh I didn't realise that! She hasn't got any teeth yet but is chewing on her front teeth with her fingers which she's never done before. She is only just drifting off unsure whether she is overtired or under tired. She has slept 910-1030 then 1300-1430 and was so tired slept 415-45. But now she's just drifted off at 715...

Kellyjs · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2015, 19:46:37 pm »

I reckon you might be seeing some soon then

. Especially if she's biting her hands too. I'd check and see if you can see any white lumps but in either case they bounce around under there for a bit causing mischief. You've done well not having any teething episodes yet!

That last A might be a little long after a CN but we'll wait and see! Keep an eye out for OT NW's in the beginning part of the night. Those A times look much better before the other two than where they were though, good naps! I reckon it couldn't hurt pushing them again maybe in a day or so? But I want to see if any teeth start to show as they can be quite tired during teething spells xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 18, 2015, 07:25:41 am »

So she went to sleep at 715pm and woke at 530am. She's happy lying there till 7am so unsure if she drifts in and out of sleep!? I'm thinking the CN has to go now. Today will try 9ish till 1030? Then 1300 to hopefull 1430/1500? Then bedtime at 6pm. Could this work? Will try to attempt it. Thanks for all your help again.

Kellyjs · « **Reply #23 on:** December 18, 2015, 15:12:40 pm »

It could work, but do be mindful that she may wake at 5am as that's 11hrs overnight sleep! I do think it's worth a go though, if it works we can go back to the idea of moving the whole day on like I mentioned in an earlier post xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 18, 2015, 21:17:36 pm »

Sorry to keep messaging lots lol! Well she was overly tired and hyper by 530pm. Naps were 0905-1015 and then 1300-1415 I don't think these were undertired naps she was acting overly tired with only 10 hours sleep last night I'm assuming she was tired!? So she then had to have a CN at 415-30 as we were in the car. Then bed at 615 and I think she fell asleep at 625 so fingers crossed till 6. I once put her to sleep at 6 she slept till 7. She is so unpredictable!? What is a good idea about naps tomorrow? I'm so confused right now xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 19, 2015, 19:29:42 pm »

Well she went to sleep last night at 615pm asleep and woke at 540pm. It's like her body clock is set at 540pm!?? Her naps have been awful only 2.20hrs all day. Keeps having 1 hour naps. I'm thinking teething. But will wait and see. Will attempt morning nap at 930am again but it is so difficult to get her there!

Kellyjs · « **Reply #26 on:** December 19, 2015, 20:02:16 pm »

Keep messaging! It's good to hear what's happening

Ok, it's hard to tell when they're teething but UT naps could be creeping in there. I'd hold the A time for tomorrow, then we might have to think about extending again.

I still think that last A after the CN might be too long, but it's better to have one in there atm or else it would be far too long of an A to BT! You're doing great. At least this way, with the earlier BT she did have more ONS overall didn't she? Could be the reason the first nap was shorter after a longer night sleep, she might have been able to handle more A time first thing but we'll see how tonight goes xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 19, 2015, 20:43:10 pm »

Thanks for the help. Well my husband woke with her this morning and she was falling asleep at 9am so he decided to let her nap. She does seem very tired... So I'm thinking overtired? Put her down today at 630 and she didn't sleep until 7pm she usually goes straight to sleep!? CN ended at 430pm. Is it possible to aim for 12 hours ON and then 3 hours daytime sleep? Unsure what is normal for her as it is always different!!

Kellyjs · « **Reply #28 on:** December 19, 2015, 20:55:13 pm »

I don't think that'll be unrealistic. Although she does seem to be averaging closer to 11hrs ONS really doesn't she?

She could be a little OT, but actually I just think she's ready to go to sleep around 9/9.15qm ish as that's when you're getting a good nap in. From a 5.30am wu that's 3.5hrs A so about right for the age.

I actually think we need to look at the second A for you, sorry I should've mentioned that in my last post. That's still around 2hrs 45mins isn't it? I'd increase that to 3hrs for now and see how she goes. If you get a longer nap in, we could be on our way to getting rid of the CN xx

So wu 5.30
A 3.5
Nap 9- 10.30 ish
A 3
Nap 1.30-3
A 3
BT 6/6.15

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 21, 2015, 07:01:33 am »

Back again so yesterday went ok. She woke at 530 but went back to sleep and woke at 715. Then napped 930-1030 (woke herself) then 120 to 245 (woke herself) as it was too late for a late CN I put her to bed early by 625 she was asleep. She woke today at 545 I think. Argh. So she can do 11.5-12 hours if she wants to. I found she was in a much better mood yesterday. I really think she needs 11.5-12 nighttime and 2.5 daytime. If I did 9-1030 and 1/130-3 could her bedtime be 630? Or is this too late! I don't want to get stuck in a 630/530 routine...

Kellyjs · « **Reply #30 on:** December 21, 2015, 08:27:40 am »

Yay to the later wu!

That first nap may be an UT one with it being only an hour and with the later wu is slightly less A time than we were working towards previously. If she wakes later again, I'd be temped to push the first nap out and therefore the second consequently giving you a later BT using the A times we were using. You were trying to get her to have 13hrs ONS yesterday, can you see that with the 11hr day?

She still did over 11hrs ONS there again so we know this routine is working. You will be stuck in a 5.30am wu and 6.30 BT until we move the routine out like I've said in previous posts. Again, we can shift the whole routine like with the link I posted before, or alternatively when she does wake later, do what I said above. Does that make sense? Xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #31 on:** December 21, 2015, 09:24:51 am »

Ok if she wakes later eg 7am/730am I'll aim for a 10-11 nap!? As today went I have to put her down at 9am and is asleep by 9.05am as she appears to get quite hyper rubbing eyes thumb in (OT). Then she had been awake 3.15 hours? Shall I wake her at 10 or 1030!? What is the average awake time before bed? I'm thinking of she wakes at 3pm bedtime 630? Can I aim for 11.5 hours ON or not really? Thanks it all sort of makes sense, but when she's grizzly I just give in and put her down lol xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #32 on:** December 21, 2015, 09:32:16 am »

Yes, exactly. We just use the same A times like in the routine I posted earlier. I might leave the nap so she wakes at 10.30am if she'll do it, then you can push the second nap later too. Keep the same A time BT as you have been doing.

No, I don't think you can expect 11.5hrs ONS, she's consistently doing 11hrs xx

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #33 on:** December 21, 2015, 09:35:56 am »

Ok. But last night she slept 620pm to 545am? So is that not 11.25 hours ON. I'm so confused with timings... She did only sleep 2.25hours daytime. So to get this could I continue capping her daytime naps? To get a 11.5 hour night? If not will go with the plan. Thanks so much for your help 😀

creations · « **Reply #34 on:** December 21, 2015, 09:36:22 am »

Hi there
Looks like you've been at this for about a month now is that right? And LO is about 8 months old?
I would suggest doing set naps for a number of days to get her into a new routine, after that you can adapt based on usual cues such as an extra stimulating day might need a slightly earlier nap or BT etc, but to get into a good routine Tracy often watched the clock and kept LO up for long periods without worrying about OT. This could well be your quickest solution to implementing a routine you will all find more predictable.
I'd suggest:
WU any, the aim is 6.30/7am
A 3.5hr (until WU moves to 7am this A time will be longer, that's fine)
S 10.30 - 12.00 (stay close to help resettle if an OT nap comes)
A 3hr
S 3.00 - 4.30
A 3hr
BT 7.30
Over night 11 (or possibly 11.5) and do not expect more.

If you read some of Tracy's interviews or examples in her books, she suggested using any method needed to keep LO awake to establish a good routine, she said do a fan dance if necessary. So that first nap is coming considerably later than your LO is used to and you might need to deploy the fan dance to get through. It might even be that for a couple of days you find it impossible to get her through to 10.30, and nap might end up being 10 or 10.15 but the thing is to do your best to get there. You might be tempted to move nap 2 much earlier if nap 1 is short, This isn't how Tracy established routine, she kept LO up until the very close to the next nap time, and also woke them at WU time if they were so tired they wanted to sleep longer. Usually on the forums we go slower and more gently (partly because it is quite hard work on parents) but IMO when you've been trying gently for over a month it's probably time to grit your teeth and make this happen.

As Kelly said, when you got the later WU you put her down for a nap much earlier than needed, got a short nap, short day and back to square one with the early BT and earlier than you want WU the next morning. My suggestion on routine means sticking pretty close to it for several days. Your LO may well become OT, Tracy was never scared of that, it means in the end they sleep and get on a suitable routine. It's harder but it's quicker and it works. Be there if your LO has OT WUs or NWs and help her settle.

My absolute worst times have been when DS was UT and I didn't shift the sleep times late enough.
Hope this helps

Good luck.

Lacey1989 · « **Reply #35 on:** January 04, 2016, 20:58:16 pm »

Hi again! Just an update dd is no longer waking at 530am 😀 she now sleeps 630/7 to 715. I really think she needs the 12 hours ON and is so much happier now!! I hear her at 530 at times however she goes back to sleep (have even had to wake her at 745am) I solved it by letting her nap 2.5 hours after she woke then capping her morning nap to 45/1hr. Then doing 3 hours awake time like you said to her AN nap at 1-230/3 then she is awake till 630/7 and is quite happy with this!!! A little different to the 2 1.5 hour nap routine discussed but she's now getting more sleep ON now I worked out she only needs a short morning nap yay thanks

Kellyjs · « **Reply #36 on:** January 05, 2016, 19:20:34 pm »

Yay so glad it's worked out for you. Thanks for popping back to let us know too, it always makes us feel good!! Xx

creations · « **Reply #37 on:** January 06, 2016, 21:02:15 pm »

Great to hear good news!

That's quite early to move to a short am nap long pm nap routine but I am so pleased that you've worked it out and settled into a great routine. Wonderful!

News:

Author Topic: EMW please help! (Read 3297 times)