EMW please help!

[Lacey1989]

I really do not know how to tackle these early morning wake ups. Dd is nearly 7 months her routine is as follows;
Wake: 5-530am (do not get up till at least 615)
Bottle: 630am
Solids: 8am
Nap: 8/830am at a push awake around 930-10
Solids: 11-1130
Nap: 1145 if woke at 930 1215 if woke at 10
Awake: anytime between 1300-1400
Bottle: 1430
CAtnap: around 1530 if woke at 1 or 1600 for about 30mins
Dinner: 5
Bath 6/bottle 615
Bed 630-45

I have tried a later bedtime at 7pm but makes no difference. Earlier at 620 no difference. I really do not know what routine my DD should be on and she seems tired a lot of the time!
Please help!!!

[Kellyjs]

Hi and welcome to the forums 

I hate EMW so I feel your pain there.

I think you're on the verge of the 3-2 nap transition hun. You've probably been there a while and not realised it. I'll post a link for you to have a read through. It explains it better than I can 

It looks like you're getting a very decent nap around lunchtime. Am I right that could be up to 2/3hrs Or am I reading that wrong? We might need to look at reducing her day sleep slightly if you'd like the wu to be later in the morning. Atm with the lesser time you're expecting around 4hrs day time sleep which could be considered high. Have you noticed she needs more than the average sleep before?

Then you're asking her to have around 12hrs over night sleep there hun which frankly would not even be doable with even a high sleep needs bubba. Especially with that amount of day sleep. So basically you're not really getting an EMW if you see what's I mean?

Ok, so you've got a coupes of choices hun. Either we reduce the day sleep slightly and see if that helps make the nights longer. Or else we look at moving BT a lot later in time to achieve the 11hrs ONS but a decent wu for you. That'll probably mean a BT of 7.30pm or later to achieve a 6.30pm wu. This will have to be done gradually though ok? Don't just jump straight into it or else it could make matters worse! We'd have to move the whole day later thus enforcing a later wu and that does take time. I'll post the links, have a read through and see which option you would prefer and would fit in with family life and we'll make a plan ok? Xx

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

How to Adjust to Daylight Savings

[Lacey1989]

Thanks for your reply! I'd probably go with reducing her daytime sleep, as she has always wanted a bedtime by 7pm. How do I go about changing her nap timings? Do I push her morning nap out? She can't really stay awake longer than 2.5 hours or I'd try a 3-2 nap schedule. She only managed 3 naps about 6 weeks ago.

[Lacey1989]

Oh also meant to reply and say yes she usually naps about 1-2 hours for lunch depending.

[Kellyjs]

Ok, of she's only managed to go to 3 naps a little while ago we could take this slowly for you hun.

If she can't go much longer than 2.5hrs for the first A I'd stick wi that for a little while. I take it you're doing that based on the get out of bed time than the actual wu time which is totally fine. I'm actually thinking that might have to be increased in time given she's only napping an hour atm.

You're working on 2hrs 15mins A for the second one aren't you hun? I would increase that one to 2.5hrs and hold it for a few days. I would make sure that nap doesn't go over two hours max.

Then hopefully we can look at capping that CN to 20 mins for now that should keep BT the same. I think there will be more tweaking to be done but if we hold this for a couple of days, let's see if it makes any difference at all xx

[Lacey1989]

That sounds like a great plan. Today went well I think.. Wake up was about 530 then stayed in bed until 630am bottle 645. Then first nap 850-10. Nap 2 1230-215. A quick cat nap at 430-450. Just gone to bed at 7pm. Does this sound like an ok nap routine? I will keep her at 845am morning nap for a few days then up it to 9am? Each nap I have had to wake her! What happens on days where we have to venture out? I try to go out during awake times but sometimes doesn't always work?? Thanks for your help 😀 fingers crossed for the morning! Ax

[Kellyjs]

This is great. Effectively you're setting the first nap and try to keep her in bed for as long as possible in the morning telling her it isn't time to get up yet. I do think it'll need to be pushed out like you said, but we'll go slowly. Maybe hold this same time today, then we can look at moving the first nap out to 9am tomorrow then the next nap will be later as well.

Ahh the age old dilemma of going out or not. Tbh I was regimented in only going out for awake times, tried to be at home for nap times so she could have every nap in bed. Yk what happened? A bubba that refuses to sleep anywhere else except an odd CN in the car  . If I was to do it again I would make more of an effort to be out and about and if she fell asleep then to hell with it, there was always the next nap. I can only advise hun, and hindsight is a beautiful thing  or not! Some people try for the first nap at home then if the next nap is out and about, then fine you can always do EBT. Others have to apop the last CN anyway and always have to aim to be out in the stroller or car at that time. Others have siblings that they need to pick up from school so have to work around that. IME none of these things have ever harmed a LO. So it's totally up to you. What I have found is that one day here and there totally off the routine doesn't matter too much. You may get a couple of OT NW's that night or not. And tbh the days we had been out and about at that age and only managed two 30mins naps she slept like a log that night as it wasn't accumulated OT. Hth xx

[Lacey1989]

Yes my little one doesn't tend to nap more than 30 mins when we are out. This morning I think she woke at 545 and went back to sleep and I heard her wake around 630 😀 hopefully we are getting there! Is the morning nap being later the main thing which helps her to slee later? If she doesn't nap well at her second nap let's say if we are out. Then is it ok for her to have a nap at 330-415ish? Thanks again xx

[Kellyjs]

Yay to the later wu! Yes aside from teething the main reason for waking early is the fact the first nap is too close to their wu time and they just self regulate by extending their own A time. Frustrating I know, but once you check for teething and sure it isn't that it's normally that first nap. Some chronic EW's ie after only 10hrs sleep can signal OT but you're getting a good amount of overnight sleep so we know it's not that.

Yes, you could do a CN around then. I probably would aim for a max of 45mins and shoot for EBT around 2hrs later maybe even sooner with the lack of sleep from the day overall. Judge her mood and be prepared to get into bed a little earlier if needs be. Many bubbas around that age would need at least 1.5-2hrs after a full sleep cycle to BT but it's really hard to judge given it was an off day xx

[Lacey1989]

Hi again! The 530am wakeups have begun again!! She is off her food atm so I'm thinking she's beginning to teeth!? Nearly 8 months old and hasn't got any teeth as of yet. We have been away the passed few days and she has been extremely tired. Woke at 530/45am last few days. Today went like this: awake 530/ nap1;850-1005 (I woke her from this nap)
Nap 2; 1235-230 ( I woke her)
1600-30 (had fallen asleep on my shoulder, never does that!)
Bed 630
What is an ideal nap routine for an 8 month?

 
       

[Kellyjs]

Ha ha you might be asking the wrong person that one! We were on our way to one nap!!

That being said there's a wide variation of what's considered normal at this age. A times should be nearing 3.5hrs or so, but that's not for all. We just need to base yours on what you tell us and we'll make a new plan.

EW and off food is definitely a sign of teething. Ibuprofen works the best for this.

It's also really hard to adjust A times when they're teething as they give us mixed signals like short naps and EW so we tend to not try and tweak things too much. That being said, I do think your routine does need looking at again so we can better balance your day and eliminate that 3rd CN entirely from now on in. That'll cause you more issues than it's worth at this age now. Although I bet that was a nice cuddly nap 

What we do know that after a short night she's more than capable of doing nearly 3hrs 20mins A first thing. You might have to try and extend that 2nd A a bit (to 3hrs perhaps) to get that nap a little later and keep your 6.30pm BT whilst these EW are going on. Wdyt? Xx

[Lacey1989]

Hi again. So the passed few days her naps have been 9-1030ish then 1245-215/30 and then a short CN at 4/430 for 30 mins. She really does get tired around 1hr45/2 hours she tends to put her thumb in, rubs eyes. Unsure why this is as she sleeps 11-11.5 hours at night and a lot in the day? I was thinking her first nap could be extended to 915, until 1030/45 then 1-230/3. Would she be able to stay awake from 230-615? Or is that far too long? She starts nursery in January so I'd like to keep the afternoon nap around 1pm as that's when they sleep there.

[Lacey1989]

Also meant to say I think she is now waking about 6am so a bit better!

[Kellyjs]

So glad the wu is better for you.

The tired cues at the usual going down time can be learned behaviour. I learnt this the hard way myself although we were getting short naps.

If the naps are still a decent length and the night sleep is going well, I'd actually leave as is for a bit. I think we should consider her high sleep needs (HSN) and good to know for the future. We have to judge these things on the individual LO so yes, 2hrs is extremely low of an A time for her age, but she's not short napping, not staying awake for hours on end at night, still taking decent ONS and is not fighting you going to sleep. I'm actually extremely jealous   

Are you happy with the 6am wu or would you prefer it to be later? All I'm thinking is as she's obviously happy with the total amount of sleep she's having is 24hrs, we could well shift the routine like we do with daylight savings. So shifting the whole day on by 15 mins for the first 3-4 days then shifting again which would get you to a 6.30am - 7pm BT sort of routine. Wdyt? Xx

Moving Wake Up and Bedtime

[Lacey1989]

Yes that sounds like an idea. She is mentally quite active and wanting to do things she cannot do so tires herself out a lot of the time... Hence the 2-2.5 awake time!? I've given her a short 20minute nap CN today to see if that still gets her through. I'd rather she woke at 630am... Some days she has slept 630pm-7am but unsure why on those days. How do I shift the day so she wakes at 630? Would that mean putting her to bed at 730pm? As I don't think she will go until 730. I've tried till 7 and she just falls asleep on me lol. Thanks for your input