Please help...chronically overtired baby and mommy!

[Premmiemom]

Hi all,

This is my first post but I would really like some advice on our routine. My lg was born prematurely at 30 weeks.

My lg is 6 months/27 weeks corrected (37 weeks chronological age), breastfed and has never slept well, waking between 2 and 8 times a night. We started weaning a while ago at 6 months chronological
Age. She eats well and enjoys her food. Our typical routine varies a bit but is something like this:

W 7.30
S 9.15-9.45
E 10 milk
E 10.30 breakfast
S 11.30-12.00
E 12.00 milk
E 12.15 lunch
S 2.00-2.25
E 2.30 milk
S 3.45-4.20
E 4.30 milk
E 5.00 dinner
Routine starts at 6pm
E 6.30 milk
S 7.10
Wake 9.30 (shhh back to sleep)
Wake 10.30 (shhh back to sleep)
E 11.30
S 12.30-2.30
E 2.30
S 3.00-4.30
E 4.30
S 6.00-7.30

Wow, what a mess!! I really want some advice on how to sort it out.

The main issues are very short, frequent naps and frequent night waking. It's also a bug issue that it can take ages (1-4 hours) to get her back to sleep. Sometimes due to wind but sometimes she is just very awake. Her A time varies from 1hr20-2hrs. She then  starts rubbing her eyes so I take her to bed. She fights naps but I just place my hand on her chest and shhh her and she will fall asleep. She has napped longer in the past, up to 1hr 45, but in the last two weeks hasn't napped for longer than 25/30 minutes.

Please help!! 🙏

[Kellyjs]

Hi and welcome  . So sorry you're battling short naps, we've had that too here and it sucks 

When she napped longer in the past was she an independent sleeper then hun? Has something changed in the last two weeks at all? Have you increased her A time or is it the same? Any teeth coming that you can see?

Sorry for all the questions, it just helps get a full picture. I do think you might have an UT/OT loop going on. That's difficult to get out of what it can be sorted ok?

Around 6mo many bubbas are pushing 3hrs A. I understand yours was premature but they do start to even out their A times around now and can handle sometimes very close to their chronological age. I'm thinking that first A is too short and gradually getting OT by the end of the day. I would look at extending that first A by 15mins, hold it for 3 days and see where that gets us. We like to just work on one nap at a time in the beginning if that's ok with you? We will need to change up the rest in time, but the first one is always a good place to start. Wdyt? Xx

[Premmiemom]

Thank you for your reply, I will try doing that and extend the first A time.

No sign of teeth but I think I have increased her A time too quickly so that may have had an effect.

Cab I ask? I know she should be on a 4 hour easy by now but we're way off that. Should I try and get her to 3 hour first?

Thanks again xxx

[Kellyjs]

Ahh I'm actually not a big believer in the 4hr easy per se except when it comes to A times. E times however, especially if BF needs to be geared to the individual LO. We like to think Tracy would've updated her books if she was still with us. Some ebf bubbas can't get to a 4hr easy E wise until well after solids are established at around 7-8mo. Even FF bubbas stay with a 3hr easy for a long while. I know mine did. The main thing is to not create a snacking habit if you can so working towards 2.5-3hrs would be great, however I wouldn't get fixated on reaching 4hrs if she can't make it. Remember it's always better to get the calories in during the day  xx

[Premmiemom]

Ok thanks. I think she is definitely a snacker so I think if I can get her to have longer naps she could definitely go 3-3.5 hours as she is having some solids as well.

Yesterday I had a real go at extending naps by sitting by the cot and shushing and placing my hand on her chest every time she woke. She still roused at 25mins each time but I managed 2 long naps 1hr 40 and 1hr 35. She then had 30 minutes late afternoon in the carrier. I've found it tough this morning extending her A time by 15 minutes and she was harder to get to sleep but I'll stick with it for a few days and let you know how we get on xx

[Kellyjs]

This is great news hun, well done you. Hopefully in time she won't need your intervention at all. In the meantime it just is teaching her this is the time for sleep. Honestly, you've done amazingly well considering where you started.

I would keep that first A for a while as you said. It might just take a little time to get used to it. Keep me posted xx

[Premmiemom]

Right, I've extended A time to 2 hrs but she is still waking after 20 minutes. I am usually able to
Get her back to sleep and she'll sleep for another 20/40 minutes. Here are a couple of recent days.

Wake 6.45
E 7.00 breast
E 8.00 breakfast
S 8.40-10.20 (woke twice)
E 11.00 breast
E 11.30 solids
S 12.05-13.40 (woke 3 times)
E 2.30 breast
S 16.39-17.00 (in carrier, wouldn't go down)
E 17.30 breast
E 17.45 solids
A 18.15 bath
E 18.30
S 19.00

Wake 8.55
E 9.00 breast
E 10.15 breakfast
S 11.00-11.20/ 11.40-12.20
E 12.30 breast
E 13.30 solids
S 14.35-15.00 (out in the buggy)
E 15.30 breast
S 16.05-17.15 (in car, slept well, better than usual
In the car, usually wakes after half hour)
E 17.30 solids
A 18.15 bath
E 18.30 breast
S 19.10

Wake 7.50
E 8.00 breast
E 9.00 breakfast
S 9.30-10.00/ 10.20-11.00
E 11.00 breast
E 12.15 solids
S 13.15-13.35/13.45-14.05/14.10-14.40
E 15.00 breast
S 16.45-17.10
E 17.30 solids
A 18.30 bath
E 18.45
S 19.30 (resisting sleep)

I feel like we have more routine than before but I really want her to nap for longer on her own. Should I extend A time? Why only for the first nap and not all?

Thanks xxx

[Premmiemom]

In the BW book it says that I shouldn't be feeding in the night now, what do you think about that? I have reduced feeds in the night but still do 2-3 xx

[Premmiemom]

Me again...

Right today we went out to soft play and her awake time was therefore extended to 2 hours 30 mins. She fell asleep when we got home and woke after 20 mins but then went back to sleep easily for an hour and 20 minutes with no intervention! Should I maybe just bite the bullet and increase A to 2hr 30?

Thanks in advance xxx

[Kellyjs]

Yk what, yes I do think it might be time for an extension again. Especially after that amount of stimulation and napped well after an increased A time. We'd have to be careful and not do too much too fast, so if you jump to that time I'd hold for at least a week to see if she settles into it. I think she's catching up with her chronological age rather than adjusted in terms of A time.

I think your last A is a little lomg hun, that's why she might be resisting sleep there. They tend to not go as long after a short CN. It seemed like you did much better after 2hrs A the previous night? Perhaps we can use this as a good starting point? You're getting good ONS though, really, well done you! It's looking so much more balanced for you isn't it? I think having that last A closer to 2hrs will help, especially with the 2.5hrs for the other A's, or else your day might start to get a little long.

I'm afraid the BW book is a little outdated when it comes to feeding. Especially BF. We think that if Tracy were still around she'd definitely have updated it. The average is to have around 2 BF at night really, some a little more during GS. You're doing everything right in that you're offering solids after BF so she's taking as much as she needs during the day and there's a good spacing between them. I'll find the link for you about NF and hopefully that'll put your mind at rest xx

When can I stop feeding at night?

[Premmiemom]

Hi thanks for your reply!

That last A is long because it took so long to get her to sleep! I was trying for 2 hours but it took her so long to fall asleep! Maybe I need to try winding down earlier.

We've had some success with increasing A to 2.5 hrs for nap 1 but not for the rest of the day. For nap 2 she has resisted going down and woken up after 30 mins and then ive battled with her for ages to go back to sleep but she's refusing. The last two days looked like this

Wake 6.35
E 6.45 breast
E 7.30 breakfast
S 9.05-11.05 (shush at 30 mins but transitioned easily)
E 11.10 breast
E 13.00 solids
S 13.35-14.00 (resistant to go down and then I battled for half an hour with no success)
E 14.40 breast
S 16.25-16.45 (woke up v unhappy but wouldn't go back down)
E 17.00 breast
E 17.45 solid
E 19.00
S 19.30 (went out so bed was later than i would want)

Wake 6.30
E 6.45 breast
7.30 solids
S 8.55-10.10 (shush at 30 mins no problem)
E 10.30 breast
E 11.45 solids
S 11.40-13.10 / 13.50-13.55 (then I battled again to get her back to sleep
Unsure when to put her down as unsure if she did go back to sleep?
15.30-16.00 resistant again
Bath 17.30
Bed 18.10

Had very bad nights, up lots!

I'm wondering if she is UT for nap 2 if she slept well in the morning? Should I increase A time after first nap or stick with 2.5 for the week? Also, if she wakes up early from naps and doesn't seem like she's going to go back to sleep should I have this battle with her or just get her up?
 Thanks again xx

[Premmiemom]

This morning we managed 2hours with nap 1 but I tried extending A time two to 2hr 40 and then she woke at 30 mins as usual and was very grumpy. Should I now shorten the next A time because nap 2 was short?

Feel like I'm not getting anywhere! 😢

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply, had a v busy wknd and desperately trying to catch up!

Firstly we are getting somewhere. This is so much better than where we started isn't it?

What we do know is that she used to sleep 30mins until we bumped the A time for the first nap. Now you're getting a lovely nap int here. You are going through the 3-2 transiton and all this is completely normal hun ok? Pita but normal.

I think we need to push out that second nap a little more. She is waking grumpy so that leads me to think we're close. I would extend and hold it at 2hrs 50mims for that second one. Hopefully with getting a good second nap in there we can start to reduce that CN a little and eventually get rid of it. Remember that 3rd nap isn't really important ok? Apop if you need to just to get to a decent BT. We just need to work on the other one xx

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[Premmiemom]

Thank you so much for the reply! I know things are going in the right direction, I can just get frustrated having to battle with her for naps all afternoon. I know it's not going to happen overnight though.

I really appreciate your help, I'll give that a go for nap 2 tomorrow.

When you say apop to get to a reasonable bedtime what do you mean? I know what the acronym stands for xx

[Kellyjs]

Sorry hun, many of us believe in apop during these transitions as it does help with OT. What I mean by that is any which way you can get them to sleep just for that short CN can be a saviour. So going for a walk to 'apop' a CN in the buggy, a quick car ride timed rightly, even feed to sleep (as long as it's not for every nap and BT) too. There's just this silly time where the A times are nearly there for two naps, of they do take two long naps you can shoot for EBT. But until we can sort out that short second nap sometimes we have to apop that CN just to get to a decent BT. See what I mean? It's not for the long term, just until we sort out that second nap and A times. Then hopefully you won't have to do it again until you hit the 2-1 in many months time  xx