7mo: 3-2 transition and 30 minute naps

[Apple001]

Hi all,

I've been on the Breastfeeding board for a while, but we still have problems with naps. Here is a link: 5mo: crying after/during sleep

My DD is 7 month old. She is breastfed with an occasional bottle of breastmilk (3 times a week). We started solids, but it doesn't go well. If I get a spoon of puree into her, I consider it a success. Most of the time her mouth is shut and/or she spits up everything. We are planning to try BLW in a week or so.

Backstory: we moved her from 3.5 to 4-hour EASY when she was 5.5 months and then she started dropping her third nap (catnap). It was suggested (on Breastfeeding board) that we increase her A time. At first she was really struggling with it, so we didn't push it too much. Her naps were around 45min-1hour. However then around 6-6.5 months she started having 30 minute naps. So I started pushing her A time up to 3 hours. There were several days when she was sleeping for 45min-1hour, but then 30 minutes naps happened again.

Another problem is that with 3 hour A time I started giving her top-offs around 30min-1 hour before the usual nap time. The first few days I was getting "good" naps around 45min-1 hour. But the last few days after I gave her top-off she was super energized and I couldn't get her to sleep. Her awake times became 4-5 hours!  So I stopped those top-offs. 

Now I don't know what to do. If I keep 3 hour A time, then she has a long A time right before BT. If I increase A time, she needs more food and since solids doesn't go well I need to BF before the naps, which cause the problem I discussed above.

I would like her naps and therefore daily EASY schedule to be fixed, so that I could start PU/PD to help with prop issue (pacifier, nurse to sleep at night) and  night wakings (we have at least 3 of those, most of the nights - 5).

Below is our current approximate EASY:
WU/E 7am
A ~ 3 hours (She shows sleepy signs and becomes really cranky after 2 hours) If I do top-off around 9:30pm, then she will extend her A time at least to 3.5 hours.
S 10:00-10:30 (I will try to extend her naps for 15-30 minutes.) With top-off: 10:30-11am

E 11am
A ~ 3hours (top off at 1:30pm causes 4-5 hour awake time, so I stopped doing it)
S 2-2:30pm (I will try to extend her naps for 15-30 minutes.)

E 3pm
A ~ 4.5 hours with E around 5:30-6pm (sometimes we still get another 30 min nap if she falls asleep while nursing)

Pre-bedtime routine 7pm
BF at bedtime 7:10pm
BT 7:20pm

Nightwakings will start from 10am.



Any suggestions?

[lily_layne]

You're right on to try adjusting A times before tackling prop issues. It actually sounds like she's OT on 3 hrs A time. It may have started that she was UT at first (the 45m-1h naps) but then ended up OT, giving you 30 minute naps. I would recommend shortening A times to start to see if she will catch up on a bit of lost sleep (unless you've noticed that she naps better after those long A times she gets with a top-up).

I would start by putting her down when you see tired signs in the morning - even if it's just after 2 hours - to see what happens. From there, I would maybe try an A time of 2.5 hours (or a bit less if she has a short nap) and a bit more if you get a nap of 1h+. I'm not sure if the CN is more helpful or hurtful at this age - I think we'll just have to play around a bit to see. If you get 2 short naps, I would probably do a CN. If you get 2 longer naps (1.5+), I would try for an early bedtime.

You could also try doing a top-up right before the nap just to see if it would help her get her through the 30 minute jolt.

Is she waking lots at night for the pacifier? Does a simple replugging send her back to sleep?

[Apple001]

Hi lily_layne! Thank you for reply.

Regarding paci: She used to fall asleep with pacifier during naps. I usually put a pacifier and she will drift off right away or in a couple minutes. I also used it during night to postpone the feedings (especially the 6am one). However lately it seems like she is not into paci. I didn't use paci at night for more than a week (she is not taking it). And today she refused a paci for naps.   

I actually just recently allowed her to go to sleep after 2 hours of A time. 30 min nap again! I will try A time of 2h 15min tomorrow.

I looked over my recent logs and the only two times she gave me 1h 15min naps were with exactly 3 hour A time + top-off 30 minutes before. But after those two days she began giving me 4 hour A time if I implemented top-offs.

Today I didn't implement any top-offs and ended up nursing to sleep at every single nap. I usually used paci to settle her with the naps, but as I said she stopped taking it and since it was almost E time I assumed she is hungry.

WU/E: 7am
A 3h 30min (with 3 spoons of cereal at 9am)
E 10:30 (I tried to put her down from 10am, but she was fighting it. I ended up nursing to sleep at 10:30 and she fell asleep right away. )
S 10:30-11:00

E 11:10
A 3h 30min (with 4 spoons of veggie puree at 12pm)
E 2:30 (again I tried to put her down from 2pm (3 hour A time), but she was fighting it. I ended up nursing to sleep at 2:25 and she fell asleep right away.)
S 2:30 - 3pm

E 3pm
A 2h 20min
E 5:25pm: again I tried to put her down from 4:50pm (that's when her clues started), but as soon as I put her down to the crib she started moving around. At 5:20 she started crying and I again ended up nursing to sleep at 5:25 and she fell asleep in 5 minutes.
S 5:30-6:05pm:  I woke her up at 6:05 - I was afraid she will not wake up on her own before BT and therefore will wake up too early tomorrow.

Pre-BT routine 7pm (she started giving sleeping cues)
Nursing 7:10, she fell off the breast and put her down. She woke up 5 minutes later and I nursed her to sleep again. She finally fell asleep at 7:40pm.

[lily_layne]

Looking at the day you posted, I think those were OT naps. I would definitely keep that morning A time around 2/2.5 hrs. It may still get you a short nap but at least she's not awake as long to build up more OT and it gives you more room for a CN if needed (and the nap can be a bit longer if she needs to catch up on sleep).

When she has a 30 minute nap, I would definitely try a shorter A time afterward - likely 2 or 2.5 hrs.

With that last CN at 530, I actually would have just left her. It's a bit of a risky proposition but she may have made that the start of her night.

Is she waking happy or crying at the 30 minute mark? Do you know how much sleep she needs in 24 hrs to be rested and happy?

[Apple001]

The problem was that when the first awake time was 2 hours, her second nap was long and she did not do catnap. Therefore resulting in a huge A time before the bedtime.

Here is the example of the previous schedule when she was 6 month:

WU/E - 6:50am
A (2.5 hours)
S - 9:20-10:10am (she woke up in 35mins, but I was able to extend it for extra 15mins).
A - 10:10-10:40am

E 10:40am
A (30 min before E and 2:35 after E - total of 3.05 hours)
S 1:15 - 2:55pm (1h and 40 min: she woke up in 45 mins, but I was able to extend it right away another 55 min nap)

E 3pm
A 2 hours 45 min ----- I tried to put her to sleep from 5pm till 6pm, but she resisted.
E 5:45 pm (I tried to nurse her to sleep)
A 1 hour 15 min (for a total of 4 hours before BT)

Pre-BT routine: 7pm
E: 7:20 (nurse to sleep)
BT: 7:30pm


Today I tried to put her down after 2h 15min of A time, but she resisted for an hour and I ended up BF to sleep after 3h 20 mins of A time. I will try to shorten her A time tomorrow.
However she gave me two 40 minute naps today and only 5 min catnap.

Her schedule today:
WU/E 7:05
A 3 h 20 min with cereal at 9:10 (Probably I need to give her breakfast earlier - can it interfere with naps?)
S 10:35-11:15 (40 minutes after BF at 10:25am)

E 11:45am
A 3h 15 min with solids at 12:45
S 2:30 -3:10 (40 minutes after BF at 2:25pm)

E 3:15pm
She started giving me sleeping cues at 4:30pm, so I tried to put her to bed and started BF at 4:55pm, she fell asleep at 5:10 for 5 minutes.

Pre-BT routine 6:55pm
E 7:10pm
BT 7:20.

[Apple001]

Just a small update. Again I was not able to put her down early for her first nap. Even though she was giving all sleeping cues. As soon as she was in bed -  she started crawling, rolling, rocking in hands-and-knees position, chew on pacifier, etc.  If I hold her on her back, she starts being fussy and stars crying. I'm pretty sure she tells me: "Let me go. I want to play". So I let her go and she starts her usual routine of doing anything other than settling down and sleeping. She is definitely not in the sleep mode.

So our EASY today:
E 6:35
A ~ 2h 50min
E 9:25 -nursing to sleep again :-(
S 9:25-10am (35 min)
E 10:10 - she fell asleep while I nursed her even though I tried to start new EAS cycle.
S 10:15-11am (45 min)

Then I was at work and my DH was with DD. I asked him to keep 2h 30 min awake time and he tried to put her down starting from 1:30pm, but she didn't want to sleep and was pretty happy (he says she was not showing any sleep cues at all, but he never catches them).

E 1:40pm (feeding to sleep via bottle (50ml) - no sleep)
E 3:10 (regular feed time - no sleep)

I came home around 4pm and I needed to run some errands with DD:
S 4:25-4:55pm (She was awake for 5 hours and 25 minutes prior to this sleep and the only way we managed her to fall asleep is by car ride this time!!!)

E 5:15
A ~ 2 h 20 min

Pre-BT routine: 6:50pm
E 7:05 (nursing to sleep)
BT 7:15. 


---not nap related, but I need to have some CIO of my own:
She has 7 night feedings during the night! I really want her nap schedule to be fixed ASAP, so I could start PU/PD.
I know that I shouldn't hurry too much, but I don't have any normal sleep for a month now! It seems like it's getting worse and worse: at 4 month 1-2 night feedings, at 5 month 3-4 night feedings, at 6 month 3-5 night feedings, at 7 month 7 night feedings.

[lily_layne]

It looks to me like you've got 2 options:

1. Try to catch up on sleep a bit. Keep nursing to sleep for naps and nursing to sleep when she wakes 30-40 minutes in (rather than getting her up). Night sleep is controlled a different part of the brain than day sleep so you would be able to start doing PU/PD for BT and for some NWs at this point. I would do PU/PD for any NWs that aren't at least 3-4 hours since she ate last.

2. Dive in with PU/PD and start using it for naps and any NWs that aren't at least 3-4 hours since she last ate.

I would aim to have that first nap around 930 (give or take 15 minutes either way depending on when she wakes.) The timing of the second nap is a bit trickier as it will depend on how the first nap goes. Maybe 2h30 for a short nap and 3h for a longer nap? Or do you want to try just picking a time (say 130?) and aiming to keep the nap around then?

[Apple001]

lily_layne, thank you for your input.

Today DD had one 30 min nap and two 25 min naps :-( And I ended up moving her bedtime an hour earlier.
I actually tried option 1 today, she didn't fell asleep when I nursed her right away from the nap. So it doesn't work all the time. 

If I choose option 2, do you think it is better to give a top-off an hour before the nap? Also do you know how big a top-off should be? Half of a regular feed?

 

[lily_layne]

I would actually do the top-off closer to the nap but do it in a different room so she doesn't nurse to sleep since you are trying to break the prop. I would try diaper change, top-off, into room for a cuddle (or whatever else you do for a wind down) and bed. I would let her eat as much as she wants. She may end up not being interested in her post-nap feed and opt to eat before naps only or continue with both feeds - either option is ok.

[Apple001]

We had some progress with naps using your option 1.

Yesterday EASY: (Night feedings prior: 9:50pm, 1:20am, 3:40am)
WU/E 5:50am (we put her earlier the day before yesterday, so DD woke up earlier and couldn't fall asleep)
A 2h 40 min
S 8:30-9:00, 9:00-10:30 (with nursing to sleep at 8:25am and 9am)

E 10:30am
A 3h 15 min
S 1:45-3:15 (1h 30m) -  with nursing at 1:35pm.

E 3:30pm
A 1h 50min
E 5:20pm
A 1h 25 min

Pre-BT routine 6:45pm (total A before BT 3h 15min)
E 7pm
BT 7:15pm

Night Feedings:  10:10pm, 12:25am, 3:45am, 5:55am.


Today I also try to implement your Option 1 strategy and that's what we have so far:
WU/E 6:30am
A 2h 15min
E 8:40
S 8:45-9:30 (45 min), 9:35-10:20 (45 min) with nursing at 9:30am

E 10:30
A
S 1:45-2:45 (1h) with nursing at 1:40am

E 2:50pm
A 2h 10 min
E 5pm (tried to nurse to sleep, but she didn't fall asleep even though all the signs were there)
A 2h 5 min

Pre-BT routine 6:40
E 6:55
BT 7:05 (A time before BT: 4h 5min)


As you can see there was a significant decrease in night feedings (from 7 to 3-4). So I'm pretty happy right now and I will probably start PU/PD next week. I'm hoping it won't be too hard to get rid off "nursing to sleep" since it's pretty new habit.

Again she is dropping the last catnap. I probably should move the BT closer, but if I do so she wakes up too early.

[lily_layne]

I'm glad you are seeing progress!

Some LOs don't do a longer night when BT is early or it could be that BT wasn't early enough. For example, when she woke at 245 and refused a CN, I would have aimed for having her asleep at 6 (630 at the latest).

[Apple001]

lily_layne,

Ok, thank you. I'll try to do it next time. The earliest I put her down was 6:30 and she woke up at 6am the next day. (She has a night feeding session at 5:50am. So she basically doesn't fall asleep while feeding.)

Nursing-to-sleep doesn't work every time. I'm still getting those 30 minute naps from time to time. But at least she has at least one "good" nap (around 1h-2h).

[lily_layne]

But at least she has at least one "good" nap (around 1h-2h).

That's good news! Even if you end up with 1 short nap and 1 longer nap, that's an ok day for her age.

[Apple001]

Hi lily_layne,

If you have a chance I appreciate if you could look at our schedules again and answer some of my questions.


Yesterday's schedule:
WU/E 6:55am
A 2h 5min
S 9-9:35 (with nursing to sleep at 8:50)

E 9:35-9:45  (half asleep, but didn't fall asleep)
A 2 h 35min
S 12:10-12:25 (nursing to sleep at 12pm)

E 12:30
A  40 min
S 1:10-1:20 (rocked to sleep)

E 1:20
A 40 min
S 2-2:10 (rocked to sleep), 2:40-3:25 (again rocked to sleep)

E 3:30
E 5pm (tried nurse to sleep, but DD didn't fall asleep)

Pre-BT routine at 6pm
E 6:15
BT 6:30 with prior A 3 hour

Then NFs: 9pm, 11:25 (cot party till 11:50,when I was able to nurse her to sleep), 3:15, 5am.
She also woke up around 8:30 and 11pm - I was able to put her down by holding my hand and singing a lullaby.

Question 1 - Is the cot party a consequence of early bedtime? or those 10-min naps?


Today's schedule:
E 6:30
WU 6:45
A 4h total
S 10:30-11:25 (with E at 9am, 9:40am and finally rocked to sleep at 10:30)

E 11:30
A 3h 55m
S 3:25-4:05, 4:10-4:50 (with nursing to sleep at 2:30, 3:20, 4:05)

E 4:50
A 2h 40min with Pre-BT routine 7 and E 7:20
BT 7:30

Question 2 - Do I need to adjust the morning A time? I tried to have 2h 30min, but ended up with 4h. She starts showing the signs of tiredness after 1 hour in the morning, sometimes she falls asleep on her own after 1h 30min - 2h. So do I stick with 2h A time? or should I aim for 2h 30 min?

Question 3 - I usually follow the signs before the second nap and a (possible, but highly unlikely) catnap. They were showing up around the time we discussed 2h 30 min (after a short morning nap) and 3hour (after a good nap). But I don't think these A times work.
Yesterday I got a 10 minute nap after 2h 30 min of A time (since the previous nap was short). Today I tried 3 hour A time (after a longer morning nap) and she actually started showing the signs of sleepiness (rubbing her eyes, crankiness) at that time. But after nursing to sleep she got energized. She was happily playing in her crib until the signs of sleepiness started again and she fell asleep while nursing.
Should I still stick with 2h 30 min (after a short morning nap) and 3hour (after a good nap)?  Or should I change these times? Or is there something else influencing those naps?

[lily_layne]

Is the cot party a consequence of early bedtime? or those 10-min naps?

I would say it's likely from OT from the short naps. If she is just chatting, it's probably best if you just leave her be until she cries for you.

To answer the other 2 questions, I think at this point, it might be easiest to set your naps by the clock rather than A times since it's hard to know what A times work. It sounds like it also may be time to work on independent sleep - she will get OT but it's just short term - once she can sleep on her own it should get better. What about a day like this?
WU: 630/7
S: 930 (a touch earlier if she woke very early)
S: 130 (15-20 minutes earlier if the first nap was very short)
BT: 630/7

[Apple001]

Thank you, lily_layne!

Yes, we need to work on independent sleeping - as soon as my DH will be done with his work project (two weeks left).
I actually was looking for a PU/PD forum, but I can't find it anymore. I wanted to ask some questions regarding PU/PD implementation (for example, what if it is time to eat and PU/PD is not working) as well as read others successful stories as an encouragement.

[lily_layne]

We used to have a PU/PD board but we recently took it down as it wasn't used very frequently and there were to many boards for the moderators to keep up with. There's good info about PU/PD in the sleep FAQs and feel free to start a post looking for support on General Sleep.