8 week old

[grace annes mommy]

Hi there,
Josephine will be 8 weeks tomorrow and she is not a napper.    Honestly, we've been doing a VERY loose EASY with lots of winging it for naps throughout the day - sling, carseat, etc. but she is more and more aware and it's getting harder to settle on the go now.  I do at least try to get her in the crib for one nap and actually she is not a bad independent sleeper if I catch her in the right tiredness window.  Regardless of where she is napping, they are short.  Usually the 40 minute single sleep cycle deal.  Often, for her crib naps, she'll wake up after 10 or 20 minutes - I'm guessing at the jolts?  Often, she short naps all day, then crashes in the late afternoon.  Yesterday, for instance, she had short naps all day, then crashed in the sling around 5pm.  I was able to rouse her a bit at 7pm to eat but only a couple ounces.  She was completely out for the night.  Then, of course, had a very unsettled sleep from about 4:30am onwards. 
I do have an older DD, so I really can't spend all day settling for naps, etc.and it is necessary she does some naps on the go.  But I would like to give it some time this week while DD1 is at school and see if we can get closer to a routine.  The short naps are just not restorative for her, yk?
I'm guessing shh/pat is the way to go?  It's been a long time since I did this with DD1 (and wasn't fully successful then due to undiagnosed reflux/allergies mixed with a touchy/spirited personality).  Do I stay thru all the jolts and the 40 minute mark for the first couple days to keep her sleeping?  What A time should I start with?
Any help coming up with a game plan is much appreciated!  Not looking for a perfect EASY but at least one good restorative nap would be great.
TIA!!

[lily_layne]

Do I stay thru all the jolts and the 40 minute mark for the first couple days to keep her sleeping?

That's probably where I would start. I would set a time limit you're willing to try for and then just get her up after that if the resettle doesn't work.

It's hard to say where to start with A time as it can vary pretty widely at that age. How much A time has she been having? I would maybe stick with the time that's working for getting her to get to sleep easily. If you've tried for a few days to extend with no luck, maybe try pushing it a bit.

[grace annes mommy]

Ok, thanks!

I've been doing more cue watching than clock watching but I think around 1 hr 15 has been a good A time (at least for the first nap, shorter as the day goes on with the short naps).  So I'll start there. 

[lily_layne]

That sounds like a good plan.

I can't believe she's 8 weeks already!

[grace annes mommy]

I can't believe she's 8 weeks already!

I know! Amazing! Nice to be at this point, just doing normal baby stuff like dealing with naps. 

So, I hung out in her room for naps today.  I feel like we got a good start.  Today's the first day I've bothered jotting down her EASY and that was definitely helpful.  I'm including ozs too just for myself bc of some feeding/breastfeeding stuff.  I'll start with last night:

Sunday -
short naps all day (so tough on weekends with DD1)
7pm - 4oz EBM - fell asleep on bottle but kept waking up in bassinet - seems to be the pattern when OT, she's hard to settle for bt
7:45pm - gave another 1.5 oz - woke once more
Asleep for the night around 8:15


NF 4:15 3oz
Woke at 6am but dozed in bed with me til 6:30

Monday-
WU 6:30am
E 6:30 4oz
A (1 hr 25mins)
S 7:55 to 8:45
*had her in bed at 1hr 15 A time, she had the hiccups and needed some patting.  She woke at 8:40 but replugged and slept only 5 more minutes.  Tried to resettle for about 5 more minutes, but she wasn't having it.  Thinking this may have been an UT nap?*

E 9:15 3.5oz
A (1 hr 30 min)
S 10:15 off/on, 10:30 to 11:10, 11:55 to 12:25
*in bed at 10am, needed 15 mins of patting and had to pick her up a couple times before she nodded off.  Then had no pat intermittently every 5 mins or so til 10:30. Slept til 11:10 then tried to resettle til 11:55 when I picked her up and sat in the rocking chair.  She was clearly tired, kept nodding off and waking up as I worked on resettling.  Finally rocked her for a few mins, then put her back in the crib but she woke up shortly after.  Thinking OT nap here.*

E 12:30 4oz
A (1hr 20min)
S 1:45-1:55, 2:00 to 4:30 with several shh/pats.  woke her up at 4:30pm
*Had her in the crib at 1:30 and needed about 15 mins to fall asleep.  Basically, she needed patting every 10 or 20 minutes through the jolts for this nap until 3:15.  After that, she slept until I woke her up at 4:30*

E 4:30pm 4oz
A (1 hr 5 min)
S 5:35 til 6:35 - in the ergo, woke her up
*Was hard to wake up and pretty grumpy thru next A time.*

E 7pm 3oz
S fell asleep with bottle, in bassinet at 7:30pm
*Didn't have to resettle like last night*

So, seems like she needs a good 10 or 15 mins to settle for naps.  And a lot of encouragement thru jolts and sleep cycles.  Not sure what to aim as far as an A time.  That first nap seemed UT to me, but the rest were definitely OT until the last one in the ergo.  All in all a pretty good day for her.  I definitely cannot hang out in her room for all her naps forever though.     Is the idea that patting thru these jolts and sleep cycles will teach her to keep sleeping?  At what point can I remove myself?

Thanks for having a look!

[lily_layne]

So, seems like she needs a good 10 or 15 mins to settle for naps.  And a lot of encouragement thru jolts and sleep cycles.

Sounds like my DD. She jolted lots. She was really strong so I ended up putting her on her tummy and that helped a lot with the jolts. I also used the swing quite a bit with both LOs (very helpful with LO2 to be freed up for LO1!) and it didn't become a prop.

Is the idea that patting thru these jolts and sleep cycles will teach her to keep sleeping?  At what point can I remove myself?

That is the idea. She is quite young so it may take quite a bit. I would try it for a few days and see if there's any progress and then re-evaluate. Since you can't live in her room with another LO around, I wouldn't sweat it if you need to do some APOPing it is early days yet. If she doesn't resettle with patting would she go back to sleep in a sling? That worked well for my DS.

UT and OT can be tough to sort out when they're so small. Since she's going to sleep within reasonable amount of time, I would stick with 1h15 for now.

[grace annes mommy]

Well, the last 2 days are a bust.     She had appts. both yesterday and today, plus my mom was here today and we went out.  So... very tricky juggling sleep.  Lots of naps in the ergo (which is fine with me for the most part).  Like I said, not looking for the perfect EASY, but one good nap a day in the crib would be great.  I think I'll work with that first nap of the day since it seems to be the easiest to settle her.  I did in the crib at 1 hr 15 mins for 2 days and got 45 min naps.  Yesterday, when I tried to resettle, she was just lying there smiling at me so I do think UT maybe.  Today, the A time was later unintentionally and it took forever to settle her, then she was up 10 minutes later with a jolt so def OT.  Seems to be  a fine line..

[lily_layne]

I found that the first nap was always easiest with my DD also but it was almost always short. Same as with Josephine - awake a touch too long and she ended up OT jolting so I usually kept that first A short even if the nap was short. DD just seemed to have a narrow sleep window and it was tough to catch it.

Do you swaddle?

[grace annes mommy]

Yep, she's swaddled tight with 2 different types of blankets.  It's ridiculous, but she's a houdini.  Now that I'm thinking of it, DD1 always did a short a.m. nap too.  I wonder if J is following that path.  It's a pain bc I remember never being able to figure out the 2nd A time after that first short nap.  Honestly, DD1 never had a good routine until we hit 1 nap at 12 months.  Then, she stuck with that routine until nearly 5yo! 

[lily_layne]

It's a pain bc I remember never being able to figure out the 2nd A time after that first short nap

I found that too. With DS, I started shifting to clock-based naps around 6 months when he dropped the CN and it made it so much easier. He's quite different than DD but I do think that approached would have helped with DD too.

Honestly, DD1 never had a good routine until we hit 1 nap at 12 months.  Then, she stuck with that routine until nearly 5yo

I think that's the way some LO's are made and that it doesn't have much to do with what we mamas do or don't do. Some just don't develop that predictability until they are older.

[weaver]

Just to chip in, with my LO2, since LO1 was only two, I would often get her into the cot for her first nap and she would nod off, but wake up a bit later, around the 30 or 40 minute mark. I would then pop her into the carrier or the buggy and we would get on with whatever we needed to do.  Oftentimes she would add on some more sleep, but she was also getting practice of sleeping in the cot.  So it worked quite well.

Cuddles to Josephine!

[grace annes mommy]

Thanks ladies!
Another day of nothing but short naps.  I think I will do what you've just suggested and let her have her 1st nap in the crib, then try to extend it by putting her in the ergo and getting the poor dog out for a walk.  I've just been getting her up, but I do think the day will go better if I can get a bit more sleep in her first thing.  She was pretty fussy today and had a lot of trouble settling for bed.  OT for sure..
lilylayne, you've reminded me that at some point I switched to clock based naps for DD1 also.  I can't remember when exactly, but I remember it did work for her.  I did naps by the clock and bed by A time so she wasn't OT headed to bed if she short napped.  J seems to be a very similar napper to GA but a bit better at independent sleep and night time sleep so far.
Still figuring out A times mostly bc I've been too inconsistent.  I find these short A times tricky bc she's a pretty slow eater and then I'm squeezing in meds, diaper changes, etc.  All the sudden I've probably missed her window.  Ah well..

[lily_layne]

It's hard to fit everything in, isn't it? Especially if you have an LO with a small sleep window. It will get easier as her A time gets longer. Don't worry about being inconsistent. It's tough to keep things the same every day with another LO around.

I think I read somewhere that some LOs are ready for clock-based naps around 5/6 months (and of course later for others). A lot of my IRL friends (and moms on here) found their LOs nap times became more predictable around the 6 month mark.

[grace annes mommy]

Yea, I've given up on A times.    I'm just trying to keep a rough schedule in mind and if she wakes up after a short nap, I just APOP like crazy to give her a "full" nap.  Or if we're out and the naps a bust, I try to AP the next one to catch her up.  And just giving her chances to self settle when possible.  Having the rough schedule in my mind is helping me a lot as far as planning our day and keeping me sane.  As far as how she's getting the nap, we're in wing-it mode.

[lily_layne]

That sounds pretty much the same as what I did with LO2 and exactly like the advice lots of our fellow BWers gave me.

[grace annes mommy]

J is 10 weeks now and still not much of a napper.    Night sleep, however, has been pretty good. *touch wood!*  For naps, we have a LOT of AP going on and hardly any independent settling.  Part of it is I'm clueless about her A time.  Her first nap is her easiest to go down for when she's not OT, but usually seems to be an UT 45/55 min nap.  But if I push the A out, she's hard to get down and needs lots of patting or APing.  All the other naps, I pretty much either rock her to sleep or she's in the ergo mostly bc I think she's OT from the first short nap.  At night, if she doesn't fall asleep at the bottle, she needs quite a bit of APing to go down as well.  But overnight, she's only getting up for one feed and sleeping 11 to 12 hours so she must know how to self-settle to some extent, right?  What do you think - is all the APing going to come back to haunt us later down the road or is it OK for now.

[lily_layne]

is all the APing going to come back to haunt us later down the road or is it OK for now.

My vote is that it's ok. I kept worrying about all the AP I did with DS, feeling that he was getting too big for it (at only 10 weeks!) and looking back, that's still pretty little. Josephine is still enjoying her fourth trimester! I wouldn't start to think about alternatives to AP for a few weeks yet.

[grace annes mommy]

Thanks! That's my feeling as well but always nice to hear it from someone else.

[lily_layne]

I had to hear it from lots of moms on here before I could really relax about it. In fact, I have a whole thread about it

[grace annes mommy]

Me again. 

I've moved DD2 into the "rock and play" for naps and that's helped her finally get some long naps that aren't in the sling.  In fact, yesterday she had too ultra long naps and then I couldn't settle her until 9pm for bed.     She woke more than usual last night, then I had to wake her this a.m. at 8:30.  If it's not one thing, it's another!  I have a hunch she's inching towards a 3.5 hr routine.  What does that transition look like?  Seems hairy. 
Also, what's your rule of thumb as far as waking from naps or in the a.m.  I hardly ever woke DD1 but that's bc sleep was rare for a long time.  With DD2, long naps don't seem worth it if she's up til 9pm and at night.

[lily_layne]

That's great that the rock 'n' play is working. DS (and DD) had a lot of swing naps. DD almost always napped better in the swing and it was no problem weaning it when the time was right.

I don't remember consciously transitioning to a 3.5 hr routine. It just sort of happened naturally as DS's A times increased. I do remember that one day he was just all of a sudden ready to be awake longer. Stretching the feeding wasn't an issue with him as he really only ate every 4 hrs from the start. With DD, I think we just jumped to a 4 hr routine around 4 months. Sorry - that wasn't much help!

I woke DD from naps way more than I ever did with DS. DH always said I was "messing with her" and it would be alright if I left her be and in hindsight, I think he was right. I was more inclined to leave DS but he does need more sleep in general. I would try a few days without waking her and just see if it does reliably cause BT issues and wake her if it does. If I did cap a nap, it was usually the last one, to try and keep a decently early BT. I had intentions of waking DS at a consistent time from about 8 weeks on but really never did follow through. If he slept longer than 7/7:30, I usually did the first nap in the stroller which virtually guaranteed a short nap which got the day back on track. At 11 months, I still rarely wake him and it's working ok.

[grace annes mommy]

Thanks for your thoughts!  She was up more times than I can count last night so something's up.    Gonna just ride thru the day and see what it brings...

[lily_layne]

Wonder week? Both LOs had silly amounts of NWs during a WW.

[grace annes mommy]

Possibly?  She's 11 weeks now.  I can't remember the WWs - is there one at 12 weeks? 

She's massively OT today... I feel like all I've been doing all day long is trying to get her down for a nap.

Today so far has been:

WU 7am (after being up every hour or 2 all night...)
E 7:30 (not much, also ate at 5am)
A
S 8:30 - 9:10, resettled by rocking until in a deep sleep...
S 9:15 - 10:20

E 10:30
A
S tried for a nap around 11:45, she just played in her crib.  Finally started fussing, so rocked her til drowsy.  Slept from 12:40 til 12:50!

E 1pm - figured I'd just feed her...
A
S 1:10-1:35  Fell asleep with bottle, but then up again...
A
S - in sling now at 2:10pm

Just really hoping all this AP hasn't affected her ability to self-settle at night...  Bedtimes have been annoying for a couple weeks now.  She dozes off at the bottle, then wakes about 10 minutes after being put in the crib.  On a good night (which has only happened once or twice), she'll look around for a while, then doze off.  Sometimes, if she's fussing, I can replug her and she'll go off.  Or I may have to pat a bit.  Other nights, I have to get her up and rock her to sleep.  Sometimes she just wakes once.  Sometimes, I have to go in multiple times.  I don't know if I'm putting her down too late or too early or it's a self-settling issue or what.  It makes me dread bt though since I also need to read books with DD1 and give her some attention.  Hard to be running back and forth between rooms...

[grace annes mommy]

So the rest of the day was:

S 2:10 til 4:30 - in the ergo but transferred her to rock and play around 3:45/4.  woke her at 4:30pm
E 4:30
A
S 6:15 to 6:45 - in ergo, DH tried earlier but took a long time to settle.
E 7:30 fell asleep at bottle
in bed at 7:50

It worked out for a shorter A than I'd been doing to bed and for the first time in ages, she hasn't woken just after being put down, so I'm really hoping I just answered my own question there and she's been a bit OT at bt. 
I'm wondering if she needs more A time for naps, though.  I've been shooting for 1.5 hrs give or take but she's been so hard to settle sometimes.
Thanks for your input and letting me think out loud here!   

[lily_layne]

Just really hoping all this AP hasn't affected her ability to self-settle at night... 

It shouldn't. Night sleep is controlled by a different part of the brain than day sleep. I did lots of APOP with DD in the day and it never caused a problem at night.

I checked my app. The smooth transitions leap starts between 11-12 weeks so I'd say that's definitely part of what's going on. Some LOs (like my DD) are more affected by wonder weeks than others. She could also be ready for longer A times. I was better at catching A time leaps with DS than with DD and I remember that one day he went from 1.5 hrs to 2 hrs!

I hope the shorter A to BT helps. I was never able to figure out BT with DD. We struggled for months. In hindsight, I think part of it was just the way she was (she still takes ages to settle to sleep) and part of it was I was putting her down too late.

[grace annes mommy]

Interesting! I never read the WWs book, just heard about it here and there from here.  But something's definitely changing in her this week so now I'm intrigued.

Of course, spoke too soon about bt. She woke after an hour but settled quickly with a replug and a quick pat.  I'm off to bed myself as who knows what tonight will bring...

Thanks for the reassurance about APOP during naps.  DD1 is off school for the next 3 weeks so we'll be having a lot of APing with naps on the go, I'm sure.

[grace annes mommy]

Well she was up every 3 hrs to eat last night, but then only took a few ounces each time.  Really hoping this is a WW blip and things will settle down soon...  Naps have been pretty decent so far today, though.  She sleeps pretty well in the rock and play.  I'm considering putting her in it tonight for bed to see if we can get a better night sleep.  Don't want to create another issue, though.  What do you think?

[lily_layne]

Really hoping this is a WW blip and things will settle down soon... 

It really sounds like a ww to me. I haven't read the book either - I just have the app. It's $2 but I like knowing when the next WW is coming.

I would try her in the rock 'n' play tonight. Sometimes, you just need sleep! If nights are generally ok, I don't think a night or 2 will ruin that. I used to put DD in the swing when nights got tough and it didn't become an issue.

[grace annes mommy]

So, all the night time antics were definitely a WW!  Will have to keep that in mind from now on!

J is 3 months tomorrow!!!  And doing all sleeps in the rock and play.  That vibrates!    She can self settle, but I typically rock her til drowsy.  She also still can't make it thru that 40 min mark of naps usually, and I again rock her back down bc it's faster.  Her naps are not great, but we have a good routine for the family that allows us to get out.  And she sleeps well at night with 1 wakeup.  The other night she did 12 hrs for the first time.

So my question is.....   How long can I get away with this before it all comes back to haunt me???  I was skimming BWSAYP yesterday and started getting very nervous!!!

[lily_layne]

we have a good routine for the family that allows us to get out.

I think this is really the most important thing!

Reading BWSAYP always freaked me out too but she's still in the "fourth trimester" (are  you familiar with Happiest Baby on the Block?) so I wouldn't worry too much. After a good night or just on a day where you feel she's settled (or can handle it if things go goofy) you could try her in the crib to see how it goes (or in the Rock n Play without vibration). If it's a bust, I would keep on doing what works and try again in a week or so. I was still frequently putting DD to nap in the swing (and rocking/jiggling her to sleep) until around 4 months. I found that we had the most success with the first nap in the crib as she always went to sleep easiest for that one.

I found it helpful to keep in the mind the amount of effort it will take to sleep train her (likely not that much when she's ready as she's still young) compared to the amount of effort (and stress) you've saved by APOPing in these early months. I tried too hard for independent sleep with DD in the early days, not so much with DS and in my books, APOP for the fourth trimester easily wins!

[grace annes mommy]

Can't thank you enough for the reassurance and support!  I'll leave what's working for now and probably start transitioning back to the crib when DD1 goes back to school.  I'm sure I'll be back with more questions then, 

[lily_layne]

You're welcome.

That's a good plan. I would do the same - it's tough to be locked in a dark room settling a baby to sleep when there's another kid waiting for you.