Snacking vs top up?

[ENMS]

DD is almost 6 months and has A times of 2:45 and usually naps for 1:30-2:15. So a few months ago we introduced a top up feed to help her get a good nap to get through the longer A times.

I think that this top up feed has kind of turned her into a snacker. Basically she wants to feed ever 2-2.5h all day. I'm not sure how to get her to go back to taking one big feed, with just a small top up? Often she will refuse the second breast after her feed, and then she will take it as a top up.

I do feed her (as much as possible) in a dark room right when she wakes so that she gets no distractions. She does not really take on more milk though, she just suckles for longer than she would if we were out of her room.

Any thoughts?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

What about bringing the top up closer to her feed time than the nap? So that then by the next feed she is hungrier? Sorry no actual btdt as DD3 had such long A times that even though she was probably a snacker it helped pass the time!

[*Ali*]

That's was my first thought too.

[ENMS]

Sounds so simple, wondering why I didn't think of it before! Thank you. 

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

You're welcome

[ENMS]

So the good news is, I think we've managed to get the top up much closer to the original feed. She still takes only one side at first but then takes the second side within 30-45 minutes. So that's a huge improvement. She can then go 4h from the beginning of a feed to the beginning of the next feed. I'm hoping to bring that second side closer and closer. She does spit up more so I'm assuming it may take a bit of time for her stomach to get used to the larger quantities!

The problem I have now is that I can only fit 3 feeds in a day. She has 11-hour days because she really likes 13-hour nights and because she still has many NF's she is not hungry in the morning.

Usually NF's are: 11, 2:30, 6 (+/- 1 hour).

Then she wakes around 8 ish but usually will not be hungry until 9:15-9:30. Which makes her second feed at 1:30, then 5:30 with a top up at 6:30 before BT.

I have already started offering only one side and limiting the time at the 6AM feed, but she is still not hungry in the morning. She does not feed much anyway that feed is totally for comfort I have to work on phasing it out but at that time it is difficult because I don't want her to Wake the other 2 (DS is in the 1-0 and so is very OT right now already).

If we don't feed her at night she gets very mad. I think she truly is hungry but part of that hunger is because we don't get enough feeds during the day because she has too many night feeds, kwim? Should I just bite the bullet and do PUPD for all night wakings after the 11PM one?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I think with that short of a day you either have to feed more often during the day or accept the nf's...DD3 from 4 weeks to 4 months sttn 12 hrs but she jammed 6-8 feeds in 12 hour days to make up for it.  After the 4 monh gs we were back to a couple of nf's and they continued for some time (that was kind of when she became super active and until she was on solids fully she still fed loads in the day and at night.

Is the 11 pm feed a df?

[ENMS]

If we had a 12-hour day would it make a difference you think? I don't see how it would allow me to fit more feeds even if she woke at 7 instead of 8?

I woudn't mind more frequent feeds during the day, except that she really has a tendency to snack and never really take a full feed, yk? She'll just take a little bit at each feed and never fully empty the breast unless I extend the time between the feeds. I then always get blocked ducts. That's partly why I wanted to get rid of the snacking and get her to spend more time between feeds.

What bothers me about her current E Schedule is that her day is reversed - she takes on more at night than during the day? Then she's not hungry all morning. Weird Schedule, no?

No DF, she never took to it and she would Wake and be hard to get back to sleep. She wakes on her own.

She'll be 6 months tomorrow and we've started solids but she hasn't really actually eaten anything yet, more just playing with the food and discovering. We're doing BLW.

My DD1 was the same as your DD3! STTN 12 hours from 6 weeks on but fed every 2h until she was established on solids!!!

[ENMS]

Oh and the NF's are no different from when she was eating every 2h during the day vs now.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hmm she is a puzzle! I see the conundrum with getting the feeds spaced - I doubt a 12 hour day would make a big difference really. Besides pushing out the 6 am feed...but I know that one is a hard one as then she would probably be up for the day if not fed.

[*Ali*]

Is it a prop issue do you think? I know you say she is truly hungry at night but it could be learned hunger because she isn't taking enough in the day as you say.
How does she go to sleep for naps and at bedtime? Independently or are you there?

[ENMS]

I'm wondering if it may be a prop issue, or a routine issue. She is totally an IS for naps and BT. I'm not in the room with her. But, I often notice that she wakes every 3h throughout the night, as if she can transition once between sleep cycles but not twice? And obviously she does often fall asleep while BF during night feeds. I try to put her down before she's asleep but it is a fine line I try to pay attention and as soon as she stops actively drinking I put her down. Interestingly, last night, I had dinner with some friends so for the first time I was not there when she woke for her first NF around 11ish. DH went to see her and offered her a bottle of EBM and she got terribly mad at him. It took him over 30 minutes before she drank the bottle and even after she took another 30 minutes to go back to sleep. This makes me think it may be a prop, or at least comfort related? WDYT? She usually takes a bottle just fine and never refuses it when I offer

Also another noteworthy thing is that she is on 2 naps and has been for a while because of her long nights. She usually has a fairly long A to BT (3.5h approx, usual A if 2:45-3:00) but she's been doing ok with that A time, settling fine at BT and also no Wake ups 30 minutes after BT.  But, for 2 nights out of the last 3, we had to do a CN because I was out with her during the day and she took car naps so the last A would have been way too long. So after those CN, she had 2h of A time, and these 2 nights, for the first time ever, she slept 5h straight until 12:30. Very unusual, as I said she really most nights will Wake between 10-11Pm (3h after her last feed). So I'm wondering if it could be routine related.

Any thoughts? Am

[*Ali*]

Yes it could be routine if she does better on less A time to bed. It might be worth playing around with her naps, feel free to post on the EASY board if you'd like help with that.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Yk even though my kids were (mostly) independent sleepers otherwise I always let them fall asleep during nf's before popping them back in bed...all but DD3 stopped waking for feeds on their own. With the better night after the extra catnap does sound like routine could be part of it. 

[ENMS]

Thank you ladies. So hard to figure out what the issue is.

The great news of the day is that she did a 7 hour stretch last night! From BT at 7:30 to 2:30! Yay! I feel so rested!  I'm really hoping it continues. There was no CN yesterday so I'm a little confused whether it is routine related or not but if the longer stretches don't continue I will post on the EASY board. Thanks!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Nice! Maybe she is at a point where she doesn't need the feed so isn't waking? Hope the good nights continue!