Help with shush pat

[Realcanadianbacon]

Hello all,

I've been using shush pat as a gentle sleep training method for my now 5 month old for the last two weeks. I don't follow the easy method, my routine has me feeding as part.of the prenap or prebed routine (at the beginning of the routine).

There were quite a few tears in the beginning as we collect at night (she's now in the bassinet next to the bed) and she was rocked to sleep for naps.

After the initial battle we got to the point where she only needed a couple of minutes of patting before I could leave her to fall asleep on her own. I was overjoyed. Then it stopped working. I had to pat and hum for 20 to 40 minutes at a time or she would wake up screaming. Now it's a mixed bag. Sometimes she seems to need me to be there until she is deeply asleep,  and sometimes it seems as though the patting is doing more harm than good. For one nap today patting seemed to be agitating her so I just placed my hand on her chest and she fell asleep on her own.

Problem is I never know which way it will go.  Do I stop early on so I don't interfere with her falling asleep on her own and accidental parent, or do I soldier on until she is past rem?

I'm also having issues with frequent waking early in the night. Like 3 or 4 times between 7/8 (depending on last nap) and 11pm. She doesn't give reliable sleep cues so I'm mostly going by time. Up for 1.5 in the morning then usually a 45 minute naps, up for 2 then a 2 hour nap, up for 2 then another 45 minute nap, up for 2 to 2.25 and then bed.

Any tips?

[trimbler]

Hi there and welcome to BW forums

Little question - did you mean 'co-slept' rather than 'collect'? Autocorrect, perhaps?

Sounds like you've done some great work on teaching her to self settle, well done It's actually quite common for babies older than, say, 4mo, or some younger babies too, to start to find shh-pat more annoying than helpful, so feel free to alter it as works best for her. I'd have thought that if she used to be able to settle herself after just a few minutes of shh pat  she should be able to learn again with fewer tears than before. Perhaps her routine needs a little tweak, thinking about those evening NWs - making a few small changes could help her to settle better for her naps. But before I get onto that, have a read of this and see if it helps: Shush-pat - How to

I'd work on gently stretching her first A time, do you think you could get her to 1h45mins without her getting too fraught? That short first nap looks UT to me, it might take her a while to get used to a longer first A time but I think it's worth a try to get a longer first nap. Hopefully she'll get used to it after a few days and then you can push to 2h, like her second A time? I think what might be happening is she's UT for her first nap, recovers well and takes a good second nap but then you end up with a long stretch between her CN and BT, which is probably making her OT, this is the classic cause of those evening NWs. Usually LOs need a shorter A time after a CN, compared to after a long, restorative nap. Does that make sense?

[Realcanadianbacon]

Yes sorry, coslept/bedshare

Thanks for the link, I had read it and I thought the longer times were needed because she was using it as a prop and wouldnt sleep without it. After today I think she just needed much less help and I was actually working against her sleeping. I patted for a very brief time and then just lay my hand on her chest and she's been falling asleep pretty easily. Bedtime is still the hardest though.

I was keeping her awake for 2 hours before first nap but naps were 30 minutes, by decreasing to 1.5/1.75 I got 45 minute naps, so should I try 2 hours again? Also, today after 1.5 hours she had her 2 hour nap first in the day and then 2nd and last were both 45 min.

I'm guessing CN = catnap in reference to her last 45 min nap.  So I should decrease awake time to how long if she only sleeps that long before bed?

Should I be trying to lengthen the 45 min naps? I know short naps are common at this age, and as she only recently started consistently having one long nap I had hoped the others would follow. Also, when she sleeps for 2 hours I wake her at around the 2 hour mark. Should I let her sleep as long as she wants? If she is sleeping for 10.5 to 11 hours per night she should be napping about 5 hours, is that correct?

Thanks for your help!

ETA

My nap routine starts with dim lights and a few minutes in the swing if we had a lot of stimulation that wake time. If not, straight to feeding, then brahms lullaby on, then diaper change, then Merlin sleep suit, then white noise and fan on, lights off, night night.

Bed routine is dim lights, feeding, brahm's lullaby, diaper change, Zantac, sleep suit, goodnight moon, white noise, night night.

Also, tonight we had a longer wake time before bed (2.5) accidently because dad was leaving for a trip for a few days and things got a bit pushed back, and she's only had one wake up since 730 which is pretty good, so what gives?

[trimbler]

Firstly, well done on adjusting shh pat to suit her better and making such quick progress on that - let's not forget to celebrate the little steps forward

So is she sleeping 10.5-11h at night? That's a little on the short side, I wonder if she's still a bit tired in the morning and so wants the shorter A time then? Perhaps that long 2h nap after the 1.5h A time was her making up for a shorter night? I would recommend reducing the A time after the CN (yes, catnap) before BT, it's great that she didn't have many OT wakings after that longer stretch the other day, but she may struggle with that on a regular basis...

You can certainly try to lengthen the shorter naps, although you're right they're pretty common. One way to do this is to work on your routine, tweaking A times etc to get the biggest chance of a resettle. You could try going in just before the 45min mark and laying your hand on her chest, just like you do when she falls asleep initially, and see if you can soothe her through the transition that way. Or leave her a while when she wakes and see if she'll resettle herself, and go in if she gets upset and do the same as you do at the beginning of a nap. I would tend to wake after 2h at this age, yes. As for total sleep over 24h, there's quite a lot of variation between LOs but 16h would be on the high end, I think my DS did more like 14h and DD around 15h at this age.

On a different note, have you had the Zantac dose adjusted recently? Will increase with weight so if not then you may want to look into that in case discomfort is causing some of the unsettledness.

[Realcanadianbacon]

She wakes up between 7/8am, so I always aim for 7/8pm bedtime to get as close to 12 hours in as possible, but with nursing an early night wake ups she never gets that much

Generally it's much easier to get her down for a nap than for bed and I'm not sure why? I've always heard that naps are harder.

I had two great days and nights in a row, then things got derailed and I don't know how it happened. For two days she had 2x 1.5-2 hour naps and a late afternoon CN. I got her to bed prior to 2 hours awake and she had minimal early night wake ups. Then on the third night she just wouldn't sleep. Woke up multiple times,  wouldn't resettle after waking. Next day (yesterday) we had all 30 to 45 minute naps. It took 45 to 60 minutes to get her down for each one. Multiple pu/pd,  tears, lots of screeching and angry babbling. Last night was worse for early wake ups, 5 between 645 and 9pm. Then she woke up at 6 am today. We are currently on our second nap, first was 30 minutes. I am shortening wake times after short naps so I don't know how else to get her out of this loop or what caused it.

In regards to eating at night I have another question,  she can't seem to go more than 3 hours without being ravenous,  she drains both breasts at each night waking. I'm trying for 11pm, 2 am and 5am feedings, but sometimes one is later because she slept longer and then she'll wake up right in time for the next one. If she ate late (say 1145 rather than 11), should the next feed be pushed to 245 or just feed at 2 when she wakes again? I am aiming to remove a feed soonish, would the 2 am be the first to go? I'm really nervous about her being hungry

Last question.  How do people deal with family members that don't have the same sleep philosophy as you? I live next door to my MIL (we're moving as soon as we have the funds), and she is of the opinion that babies sleep when they are tired, keep them up longer and they'll sleep better at night etc.   She keeps planning these all day activities and expects me and LO to join and gets very angry when I will not participate or only come for part of the day. She also wants her to come over for dinner with the other family members, but they eat at 730 most nights which is smack in the middle of bedtime. I've asked for dinner to be earlier if they want us to join with no results.  I would love to just ignore it, but with us being neighbors it's hard to do. Its causing tension with hubby as well. I've tried to explain the need to nap every 2 hours at this age, OT etc., but she doesn't seem to agree with me as that's not how she raised her kids.  Anyone dealt with anything similar? What did you do?

PS she woke up in the middle of writing this and I got her back down in about 20 minutes. We are closing in on an hour of sleep since resettlling which is great, but we have a MIL planned excursion (we are going to lunch and xmas tree cutting, and opted out of an activity earlier this morning) as soon as she wakes up which will throw her off again

[trimbler]

Yay for the good days/nights sorry to hear things are on the down again At least you know what sort of thing works for her, based on the good ones, right? I wonder what happened after that...any discomfort, do you think? Extra stimulation? Temperature changes?

As for feeding at night, three isn't so uncommon for bf LOs at this age, but tiring for you of course Could you post a whole day's routine, even one of the ones that worked well recently, including the feeds?
Eg Up and E 7.30am
S 9.30-11.30
E 11.30
S 1.30-3
Etc...

She does sound hungry at night so you don't want to cut out feedings until she can make up for it during the day, if you show me what you're currently doing then perhaps we can work out how to get more milk into her during the day...or it may be just a question of time...

(((Hugs))) for the situation with your MIL, that does sound hard Actually, my MIL is very respectful of individual choices and is only too happy to see her grandchildren raised in the way we think best, despite having done things differently herself. It's my parents we struggle with, my mum almost sees disagreements with her opinions as a kind of rejection of herself, and they've certainly made those sorts of comments, expressed frustration with our 'rigidity' or tried to compare our children with other people's children who seem to be much more 'portable' than ours ever were, ie drifting off in their prams whatever else was going on. Much easier for us as they're further away, not right next door I think it's a balance between being respectful towards our family members who have different opinions, saying you value their input but want to be able to agree to disagree on some things, setting appropriate boundaries - this will look different in different situations. Perhaps you could let her know your routine you're aiming for and say you're happy to do stuff at certain times of the day but not others. Perhaps you find that one particular nap is best at home and then say you're free to do stuff at other times. Or maybe you decide on certain days when you do stuff with her and other days when you stay at home to let DD catch up on sleep. Or you invite her round to yours so that you can continue with DD's routine. Remind her that this is just a phase and that as DD gets older she'll need fewer naps and be able to stay awake longer in between - remind yourself of this too hugs this is hard!

[Realcanadianbacon]

OK, i waited so I could have 2 full days to show you

I really can't think of what changed for the crappy days it seemed to me that all was the same except I had a cranky tired baby who wouldn't sleep. Thankfully we seem to be on an upswing again, but I'm having early night waking tonight, as I type this I'm hiding behind her bassinet and humming which seems to be doing the trick *strike that, I had to pause to hum/pat*

Nov. 30
630 wake up
650 get up, eat
8  prenap/eat
830 asleep
905 awake
920 attempted to extend
950 gave up
1030 prenap, eat
1055 asleep - struggle to go down
1110 awake
1120 asleep - settled on own
1145 awake no fussing
1200 got up
130 prenap, eat
200 asleep - took a long time but no fussing, blowing bubbles or crying
230 awake
235 asleep - settled on own
330 awake
550 asleep - I had to go out so MIL put her to nap with instructions to go down at 530 and to wake at 630 so she wasn't up too late, didn't happen
7 awake, snack
815 prebed, eat
915 asleep - long time to go down
917 awake
935 asleep with assistance (hum/pat)
330! First and only night feed, weird

Dec.1
630-645 awake, not sure that I woke up as soon as she did so not exactly sure of WT
650 eat
815 prenap, eat
840 asleep
905 awake
915 asleep - settled on own
950 awake
1125 prenap, eat
1145 asleep
115 awake
300 prenap, eat
315 asleep
500 awake, snack
645 prebed, eat
720 asleep
800 awake
815 asleep with assistance
825 awake
840 asleep with assistance

To be continued....

[trimbler]

Hmm hard to tell, but I wonder if she had woken on the earlier side on 1st Dec and so effectively had 2h10mins first A time so perhaps a bit longer than she was used to but then she was tired enough to be able to resettle herself when she woke? I do think that at this age, it's easier if they're OT rather than UT for naps. Looking at 30th Nov she seemed a bit UT for that first nap and then probably didn't quite have enough A time in between for a long second nap. I like to think of that down-time in the cot when you're trying to resettle or waiting to see if she'll resettle, as counting for half A time - so if she's lying there awake for 40mins, count that as worth 20mins towards her next A time. If you think she needs about 2h after a decent nap then aim for somewhere between 1h30 and 1h45, probably on the higher end of that, after a short nap. I'd try 2h 10mins first A time for a couple more days and hold the other A times at 2h (less after a short nap but not too much less), see how she does, I expect you'll need to start lengthening the other A times during the day soon, especially once she does a nice first nap. When you think some LOs are doing 3h by 6mo, mine were very much on the short side but close to 2.5h by then, I do think you have some pushing to do...

The wakings on the evening of 1st Dec sound either OT or discomfort related or both, to me. She did have a longer A to BT then so perhaps that push was a little too much - despite my saying earlier that OT is easier to deal with than UT during the day, I've always preferred UT at BT as mine have been very sensitive to OT and had rough nights.

I didn't see whether you'd increased Zantac dose recently? If not, do ask the doctor if it needs increasing, it may well do

[Realcanadianbacon]

On the topic of morning wake time, why is it suddenly 6am?  It's been between 7 and 8 am forever and I'd hate to think this the new normal

I don't know how people get this done down to the minute. I try so hard to get her to sleep at the right time and it's so hard. I'm often off  by 10 or 15 minutes, either because something comes up or because she's unusually easy or hard to get down. And minutes seem to make all the difference,  it's crazy. It's hard to enjoy the day when I'm scared that a matter of minutes will throw everything off

Anyhow last night was a mess, today wasn't horrible, but I've been in the room for over 40 minutes after an evening wake up. She's currently complaining and blowing bubbles after a round of pu/pd which I haven't had to resort to for a while.

Last night she woke again at 10pm. I was in the middle of watching walking dead so I cheated and nursed her early so it would be quick. We use the snuza clip on monitor and cloth diapers and the particular diaper I had one kept making the monitor go off so I removed it at 10. When I came up to sleep I was nervous about not having the monitor and brought her into the bed :/  So there weren't any real wake ups after 10pm,  but she still woke up at 6 am.

I'm not convinced she is in discomfort. I remember reflux signs very well and she's not showing them anymore. We had hiccups, spitting up, tons of phlegm, squirming. All gone. Our dose was upped at her 4 month check so her weight has gone up since, but like I say I don't notice any symptoms.

Dec. 2
6am wake up
625 get up - did not feed as she was nursing all night
735 prenap
745 asleep
915 awake - snack
1115 prenap/eat - I was late here
1130 asleep
1210 awake
1225 attempted to resettle, fed because giving hunger signs
1250 gave up
145 prenap/eat
225 asleep - no crying but lots of babbling and bubbles and frustration before sleep
415 awake/snack
600 prebed/eat
625 asleep
655 awake
750 asleep - lots of crying,  pu/pd

So other than one short nap she did not too bad today I guess, and we had a good windows between the last nap and BT so I'm not sure why it was so hard tonight. I'm still in the room and I said she fell asleep at 750, but I'm still hearing rustling and some sighs so she could be awake and just not crying (it's now 805pm).

I had hoped stopping cosleeping would allow me more freetime in the evenings but with the multiple early night wakings I can't even watch a show much less make dinner.  Grrrr!

TBC....

[Realcanadianbacon]

OK so last night wasn't great, but she's coming up on two hours for her first nap. Either I got the A time just right or she's tired from a poor night sleep.

After the horrible early wake she was up again at
1030 feed
1 hum/pat
2 feed
4 cooing and babbling like it was time to get up, because she wasn't fussing I left hoping she would drift off
430 hum/pat
555 awake like it's morning again. I fed and attempted to put her back to sleep but no go. I really hate getting up at 6 am would love to get her back to a 7/8am wake up.
750 prenap/feed
815 asleep....

I also have a couple questions about our upcoming vacation. We are leaving for a 3 week trip to Barbados to visit my family on December 28th. LO will by 6 months and 10 days.

1. Can I get her to a 3 hour WT by then so we can enjoy short excursions to the beach without being panicked about getting her home to nap? How would I go about lengthening her current 2 hour WT in order to make it 3 for the trip? 

2. She's sleeping in her magic sleep suit currently,  attempts to sleep without a swaddle have been unsuccessful but the sleep suit will be too hot for Barbados. Should I try again to transition to unswaddled or is there another product I should use?

3. I'm worried about her sleep while there, which sucks because I should just be excited for a fun trip. But, our house there is very loud. You can hear cars from the street, birds chirping, roosters and chickens, sheep, dogs barking, crickets etc.  It's also very bright and has tons of windows. Plus it's super hot and we keep the house quite cool here. How can I get her to nap with such different surroundings? She's used to pitch black, cool, and quiet other than her lullaby and white noise. So scared to have a non napping cranky baby

[Realcanadianbacon]

I have no idea why nights are so hard, especially after a decent day like today. What am I doing wrong?

Her 815 nap ended at 10am
1145 prenap/eat
12pm asleep
1235 awake
1245 tried to assist
1255 asleep
105 awake
250 prenap/eat
305 asleep
500 awake/snack
640 prebed/eat

It's currently 755 and she's still fussing and complaining. I start with either hum/pat or hum/hand on chest, but at some point she'll start fussing and arching away so I stop. Then come the screeches, bubbles, yelling etc. This can go on for quite some time before crying sets in.  I attempt hum/pat but she's annoyed so it doesn't work. I pick up and calm while humming and patting. Put down and the yelling begins again. It then turns to crying, repeat, repeat, repeat. Then I move to straight pu/pd, after a few times she lies quietly, then fusses quietly, then yells, then cries. This can go on for well over an hour.

I've been doing this for a while now and have seen progress with naps, but nights and wakings have had zero improvement. Am I making an error somewhere? This is no fun for either of us.  Should I continue to try and sooth when she's yelling or screeching and not crying? 

[Realcanadianbacon]

Well tonight has been horrendous.
 She fell asleep by 805
840 awake
,855 asleep - long pat while in arms but put down awake
905 awake
920 asleep - hum/pat
10 awake
1020 asleep - started with hum/pat, ended with pu/pd
12 awake - fed
1245 - awake, frustrated I brought into the bed
115 - awake, switched sides
300 awake - put back in bassinet

It's now 5am and i am feeding her. She has been awake since 3am. Tried hum/pat, tried pu/pd.

If she falls asleep I'm sure she'll be up in an hour or so. I really need some help figuring this out, it's getting worse every night it seems and in my frustration I'm probably confusing her by doing different things, but I'm at a loss.

[trimbler]

Oh dear (((hugs))) sorry not to have been able to get on to reply until now Tbh it sounds to me like BT is a bit UT, maybe she needs a longer A to BT or maybe it's more a case of stretching those A times during the day so that she's more ready for BT when it comes. I just say this because I've seen similar with mine, where they've messed around so much at BT when they were UT (for whatever reason) that they've got themselves into such a state, really hyped up, that they can't settle, and then they end up getting OT and having those horrible NWs in the evening. Also I think some of those EWs could be due to OT, frustratingly that is quite common

My suggesting for combating the EW and NWs would be to not let the first nap get too early, even to fix the time of that first nap. Bringing it forward can reinforce the cycle of early waking... Do try to stretch her A times a little during the day, I think she needs that now. But especially that A to BT, if she's had good naps, even just pushing it out an extra 15mins I've found can really reduce the messing around and result in then falling asleep earlier than if I'd PD'd too early and they'd messed around, iyswim?

[Realcanadianbacon]

Well ws a perfect day in terms of naps. 1.5 hours, 2 hours, and 45 min. Despite the crazy night I kept first nap just over 2 hours from initial wake. Due to dinner we were about 15 late for bedtime. Despite this I just finished an hour of pu/pd and I'm sure she will be up again soon.

Bedtime is just so different from naps and I don't get it. For naps she just lies down and is off to sleep with minimal intervention 90% of the time. Bedtime is a fight from the moment the lights turn off. She is calm through the whole routine,  looks sleepy, and then hell breaks lose.

Tomorrow I'm pushing everything to 2.25 h wake time to see what happens. It can't get worse I don't think.

Thanks so much for.your help If you have any suggestions for the upcoming vacation let me know!

[trimbler]

Hmmm... Another thought would be that she's got herself into the habit of this screaming at BT and now she just associates it with crying and getting upset, somehow that cycle needs to be broken... I do still wonder about reflux discomfort, even if she isn't actually bringing milk up any more, she may still have silent acid reflux which would be uncomfortable for her, some LOs find it more so at night. Do you have a feel for her total sleep needs over 24h? Do try pushing her A times, but be aware that some LOs struggle if you push them all at once, so keep an eye on how tired she seems.

As for the vacation, sorry didn't manage to reply to that previously. Tbh you'll only be able to stretch her A times as far as she's ready, so go ahead and try pushing them out gently now, but there'll come a point where you'll have to hold, there isn't really a way of making them cope with longer A times sooner but you might be able to get further than you think, especially if those nights improve... With noisy environments, white noise can help a lot. There are various travel black out solutions you can buy/make, the simplest being tin foil - but I'm not sure that would be a good idea in that heat! I don't know what's available in your area, have a look online. We always bring white noise and black out blinds when we go away. With the swaddle, I'm not sure about swaddling products suitable for very hot environments and older babies, will ask around We actually weaned the swaddle just before last Christmas, as we were travelling and thought she'd probably outgrow our swaddled whilst we were away. Our previous attempt had been unsuccessful but it went much better second time, so maybe you'll find the same? We love sleep sacks/sleeping bags - lots of different but very similar products out there, including 0.5 tog bags which I think are recommended for up to 27 degrees C (or something like that) with a short sleeved vest, and we've used at higher temperatures without the vest, just a nappy. If you could wean her onto something like that before you go, perhaps the step to sleeping in just a nappy (if it's really very hot) would be easier for her?