Help with shush pat

[Realcanadianbacon]

So I'm sitting on the floor of my room crying cuz I just don't know what to do. Pushed all A times by 15 minutes today and still had great and easy naps: 1h20, 1h50, 50m. 

It just took 75 minutes to get her to bed and devolved into pu/pd once more. I know she'll be up in 30 minutes ready to go all over again. Last night there were 5 wake ups before 1030p.

I checked and I've actually been doing this since late October, so about 1.5 months now and we haven't had one successful night. I am at a loss as to what to do.

I have been very outspoken to friends and family against cio but at this point might it not be better? A few days of tears versus another 1.5 months? Because she's basically crying herself to sleep via pu/pd as far as I can tell.

You mentioned she may just be used to crying and I have to break it somehow, let me know how and I'll do it. I'll do anything!  This is so awful to go through night after night after night.

[becj86]

That last A time might just be a touch short and she may be UT and crying because she doesn't want to sleep yet at BT. She then becomes OT would be my guess, hence the early evening wakings.

My understanding is that she's 5.5 months now? If so, A time should be up at 2:30 or 2:45 if she's average A time kiddo, and given your nap lengths, I'd say you need another push from 2:15.

Frankly, I think given she sleeps fine for naps, its probably more likely a routine issue than a BT issue, especially at this age.

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) I'd agree with Bec about pushing A times, what I said about breaking the cycle - I guess I just meant doing something a bit different in your BT routine, perhaps. So if for example she starts crying when you enter her bedroom, or when you put her in her swaddle/sleeping bag or whatever it might be - try doing something which distracts her around that time, so for example when mine have got into a BT crying habit, I've had success with things like getting them to look in the mirror, or singing a new song, or giving them something to hold, etc... Of course if she's really not ready to sleep then she may still be upset, but if you've been pushing and she really is tired then maybe doing something a bit differently could help her?

[Realcanadianbacon]

OK,  so I didn't rush off and cio, the opposite happened and she's back in bed. Problem is she's waking up every 2 hours even in bed. She cries if i don't turn and switch boobies. I've got a new rx and she's been taking Prevacid for 3 days now with no bedtime improvement. Ive read that prevacid isnt the greatest for night time reflux so shes still getting zantac in the PM.

To top it off she's now refusing her last nap, it's been two days in a row.

I tweaked bedtime routine for about 5 days now, I used to place her in bed then read then turn off the lights, lights off made her cry immediately. So now I read the story in my bed, pick her up and turn off the lights when she is being held then lie her down, no improvement.

Tomorrow I'll try extending wake time further as her first two naps didn't suffer from the 15 minute extension, we'll attempt 2.5 hours and see how that goes.

I'm not sure what to do when she refuses her third nap. It usually falls at around 5 pm. Today I tried for an hour, so up until 6pm. What do I do next, turn around and get her ready for bed after just spending an hour trying to get her to sleep unsuccessfully? 

In case her reflux is bothering her what do I do instead of pu/pd? After a while she gets hysterical when I hum/pat so I need to do something to calm her down without setting off any potential reflux issues.

Thanks again and sorry for my previous meltdown, it's just super frustrating and no one in real life seems to get it. They either cio or let their babies stay up into all hours of the night.

[trimbler]

Sorry not to have been able to get on here until now, well done for sticking with her rather than CIO, please feel free to vent away here, we've all been there

Sounds like a good idea to try stretching A times a bit, after a while they'll get to the point where she won't need that third nap anyway. As for what to do about that nap, I'd decide on a time after which you'll give up trying to get her to sleep, and when that time arrives, yes, I'd offer a feed and get straight on with BT routine, topping her up close to pd.  Some LOs will drop off in a buggy/sling for that last CN when they're refusing it in their cot, that's fine since it will go soon enough anyway. Out of interest, has BT been any different on the days when she didn't have the third nap?

Shh pat (or hum pat) does need to change as they get older, perhaps a gentle hand on her rather than a pat - or a head stroke, or hand holding, or something like that, might be preferable for her? Or switch the hum for a consistent sleepy phrase which you repeat from time to time to reassure her.

Did I ever send you this link? You might find it works better for you at night...never tried it myself but if you want to give it a go, I could ask around for someone who has? Gentle Removal Plan

[Realcanadianbacon]

I'm not sure what tip you are referring to in the link, but like that poor Mommy I feel like I might need anxiety meds at so e point soon, I literally get anxious when it comes to bedtime because it is so awful.

We only had two days without 3rd nap and bedtime was awful as usual, no better nor worse that I can remember.

Hum/pat seems to be working well until she gets herself worked up into a frenzy where nothing calms her.  I think it might be starting to be a prop at bedtime which is why I first posted on here. If I stop a moment too soon, or move slightly she will wake up immediately even if she has been still for a long time with nice even breaths.
We tried the prevacid and quickly stopped it, she seemed uncomfortable all day, was spitting up again and even started hiccupping in her sleep. We are now on a higher dose of Zantac and things have returned to normal very quickly. 

Yesterday she woke up at 730 and I did 2.5 hour WT, first nap was 1h20,  second was 145.   This brought us to 6pm and I thought it would be better to just go to bed rather than try and get the last nap in because it is becoming just as hard as night sleep. Bedtime was a mess with lots of crying as usual, but she was asleep by 620 (brought us to close to 3h wake time).  Woke up 30 minutes later and it took 30 minutes to get back to sleep. Woke up 30 minutes later and about 20 min until back to sleep. Then she slept for 4 hours, I brought her into bed at 11pm because I don't have it in me to fight with her all night.
Question 1 - was it the right call to go right to bed rather than a late third nap?
Question 2 - is it possible to get her sleeping on her own for the first half of the night and bedshare for the second half or is it too confusing? In my heart of hearts I think bedsharing is best but I had been going to bed at 7pm for 4 months and couldn't take it anymore and that's when this sleep training kicked in.

Today she woke up at 615.  I tried to make until 9am for a fixed nap but it was clear she wasn't going to make it. She was asleep by 845 and slept for 1.5. We had another 2.5 hour wake time and then a 2h nap. Next wake period she was getting quite grouchy and I aimed for a  2.25 hour WT. Third nap was a struggle but I got her to sleep in about 30min (ended up bring about 2.5h WT) and she slept for 30 min. Grouchy on waking at 530 and had a short nap so I was aiming for a shorter A time again before bed.  I was hum/patting by 710 and she was asleep with no tears by 745.  There were 3 pickups to calm down, but she was yelling not crying. I spent longer holding her when I picked her up and she was pretty sleepy at each  put down. She woke up an hour later and took 20 min to go back to sleep. She just woke up (another hour later) but calmed herself immediately and went back to sleep.
Question 1 - what does this say about her wake times? Is she just weird and needs a short last wake time when people always say that one is the longest? Are her earlier WT too long and the OT is not affecting naps but messes up night sleep?
Question 2 - should I continue to put her down when she is much closer to being asleep for bedtime? With nap time she goes down pretty wide awake and is asleep in short order but this is not at all possible for bed. I don't want her to get back to the point where she needed to be rocked for 45min before sleeping, that's my worry.  Another note, I have to pick her up when she wakes up. I've tried just humming, hand on chest, patting, they all just make her scream like a banshee until I pick her up to calm her. 

PS at 940 and she woke up again, 20 minutes after she got herself back to sleep after the brief wake up. Took 10 min to go back to sleep. Woke up 10 min later. 10 minutes to go back to sleep. Feeling very down again as what started out to be a promising night has gone back to business as usual. I may as well start going back to bed at 7, I have not had a single pleasant evening in two months since I started this.

Really need some encouragement.

[Antie66]

I just wanted you to know that I have been following this thread as I'm experiencing similar problems as yourself (also posted on this forum) with my 5.5 month old and I know how hard it is and I wanted to say I think you are a great mum and doing a fabulous job! You are so strong and I admire your hard work to make things better. Keep going!

Regarding your holiday I have some suggestions - we travel quite a lot and take our baby monitor with us wherever we go. It plays white noise, that lullaby you mentioned and it has a night light (that we keep on during the night). Do you have one, because taking it would at least solve some of your concerns of not being home. As for the light sleeping environment: we take a travel black out blind with us, they aren't expensive and you can buy them online. Regarding swaddling - If you want to continue swaddling on holiday, I can recommend a muslin swaddle., I have a really big one that still fits a 5-6 month old and it's very breathable. You can also swaddle them without clothes, so don't worry about the heat. I used to swaddle up to 5 months, but when I started sleep training my lo at 5 months I stopped as I figured he needed his thumbs for calming himself (it was around the time he was getting better at thumb sucking). I Started not swaddling at times he would fall asleep easy (which would be your naps), so he could get used to it and use sleeping bags (which you can get very thin) instead.

Two random suggestions that might not work at all (but hey what do you have to loose right?!). I have a marvellous little light that my LO loves staring at and we used to keep it on at night. It's a bit hard to explain, but it's an orange light with wooden silhouttes - pictures are on this website http://www.denoestwinkel.nl/c-342944/silhouet-seizoenlamp/ Perhaps something similar for your LO that she can see from her cot would help. Alternatively, that baby monitor we have does a 'lightshow' on the ceiling that is great for calming and distracting. The other thing I was going to suggest is having someone else put her to bed ... Like I said, might not work at all, but perhaps worth a think / try.

Hang in there! Xxx

[Antie66]

Oh and one more thing I was thinking ... I used the 'pantley's gentle removal' (taking your nipple out of baby's mouth - elizabeth pantley) and this has helped me when nursing to sleep, or when LO is upset and in my bed on the boob. Although my LO would then still need the breast to fall asleep, I could remove the breast earlier and earlier and he didn't need it to stay asleep and after a week or so he would be able to do the last part of the falling asleep in my arms without the nipple. I did it for a week or two, and although I didn't think it was going to solve the problem (and thus went on to using pu/pd) but i do think it helped LO when I then did start pu/pd. I thought it might be something you could try so that when she's in your bed you can at least 'roll away' and sleep yourself, without waking her. x

[Antie66]

One last thought I had about your BT struggles. I hope I'm not mixing up threads here, but I think you wrote your LO gets Zantac against reflux and that you give this as part of your BT routine, as well as that you feed her before bed. My LO also has (silent) reflux and started off on ranitidine, which I believe is similar to zantac. He took it in his stride, but never liked the medicine and over time it became more of a struggle administering it to him. The dose also needs to be changed frequently according to weight and it works 'shorter' as needs to be given 3x a day. After 5-6 weeks we therefore switched to omeprazole, which only needs to be given once a day and we found it more effective. So what I was thinking is that your BT struggles have not to do with LO being UT or OT (it may make struggles more intense, but I can't believe you got it 'wrong' for 2 months). My suggestion would be to eliminate giving the medicine as part of BT routine and try to give it a bit earlier in the day if possible. I also feed my LO as part of BT routine, but I give the 'proper' feed about 6pm and for the routine starting around 6.30pm we tthen we have a (quite long) bath together and he goes on the breast again as part of the routine (which takes about 30 minutes in total) - but it means his 'big' feed has time to settle in his tummy and there is some activity afterwards. The last thing is that your LO keeps waking up, could this be part anxiety? Perhaps you can try actual staying by her bed until 11pm-midnight for a night or three, so when she wakes you are actually still there and hopefully able to comfort her and sending her back to sleep immediately? Ok - those were my suggestions :-) xx

[trimbler]

Hi there Antie66, thanks for chiming in with your good suggestions - including the Pantley method, which is actually the link that I'd meant to post above, but instead somehow managed to paste another active thread - oops

Edited it now so you have the correct link - great to know that Antie66 has experience with that so hoping she'll continue to follow on here with her advice should you choose to go down that route, or even if not

Glad you've found the higher Zantac dose helpful, as Antie said it will need the dose adjusting, although what I hadn't realised (if it is the same as Ranitidine) was that the dose per kg is supposed to increase after 6mo but then given only 2x per day - I only found this out after DD had turned 12mo as the doc I'd seen until then continued to prescribe the dose for younger LOs! As always, consult your doc

To try and answer some of your specific questions - really hard to know at this stage whether EBT or short CN is best, you are right on the edge of dropping that CN completely. I tended to always offer it until refused consistently, but others I know were quicker to stop offering. Having said that, if I read that two nap day correctly, she'd only had 7.5h total A time, so unless she needs 16.5h sleep over 24h (very unlikely at this age) then she won't have had enough A time to feel ready for night sleep. On the other hand, when she does have the CN, she will likely need a much shorter A time afterwards - that's not weird, that's quite normal after a CN. Actually, even on two naps, some like longer As to BT (eg my DS) whilst others seem to do much better on shorter As to BT (eg my DD). So try not to worry too much about what other LOs do, yes it can be a helpful guide but your DD is unique as are her sleeping patterns

As for bed sharing for the latter half of the night - plenty of parents do that, here we focus our advice more on helping to wean from props which have become problematic in some way, and Tracy used to say "start as you mean to go on", but personally I like to remember a phrase I heard elsewhere - it's not a problem until it becomes a problem So I guess I mean if it works for you that's great, enjoy it without guilt just bear in mind it's possible it could become a prop which may need weaning later on.

I'll have to have a further think about how you put her down for BT... All that waking after 10/20mins the other night makes me suspect discomfort - waking after such a short time asleep does often indicate discomfort If you have to keep picking her up to calm her then it's possible that might be exacerbating the reflux symptoms and causing discomfort, I'm not sure if that could explain the later discomfort or if it could be something else? But if that's the case then it may well be better in her case to hold until more sleepy, rather than doing lots of PUPD...as I said, will have a further think and maybe ask around and get back to you on that one