Trying to get 8wk old to start napping in cot- update & more questions!

[Scottishmummy]

DD is 8wks old. I am following an EAS routine, even though we don't do set feed times. I have worked out that she has an A time of around 1hr10mins after good night sleep or a long nap, about 50-55 mins if a short or interrupted nap.  I start a short wind down about 10mins before end of A time. Doing this works well but only for a nap on me.

The problem is I can only get her to nap in the sling, my arms or in the car ( but definitely not the buggy too stimulating!).  I really want her to take a nap in her Moses basket when we're at home. I have an older DS who is 2yrs8mo & so I can't hold DD for naps or go out in car whenever she needs one  & it's starting to hurt my back & knees to have her in sling a lot while I'm also trying to look after DS & play with him. Sling is also  getting in the way for DS and him being a bit rough sometimes or even just noisy & disturbing her. 

I just can't get her to sleep in Moses basket. If I APOP her to sleep & put her down, she wakes after 5-10mins, crying but can't resettle & cries for full short A time which is distressing for everyone.

If I try to get her to settle in cot using SH pat or just holding her, she doesn't settle & gets OT.

If I try holding until she's almost asleep then put her down & try to continue sh-pat or just holding her in cot she wakes up again & won't resettle & gets OT.

I don't spend ages settling because I have DS to look after. If she's not asleep after 5-10 mins (A time 1hr10-15) I put her in the sling to get easy nap, prevent OT & to look after DS.

Any tips or suggestions on what to try next would be appreciated X

NB- she settles for at night in cot but I think there are 3 factors that help that:
1) very calm last A time (whole A time is bedtime routine of split feed, massage with nappy off time & bath)
2) Feeding as part of WD (but not feeding to sleep)
3) after I've done feed, DH settles her in cot By just holding her & shh-I got while I do DS' bedtime

[lily_layne]

It's actually pretty typical that she settles easier at night than for naps - night sleep is controlled by a different part of the brain.

My DD was similar - if she fell asleep in my arms, she was very difficult to transfer unless I held her for 20 minutes until she was in a deep sleep. Doable with one LO but not with 2. What helped her settle in her crib was a soother, loud white noise (we used an app on the iPod) and jiggling her crib mattress by her head.

Some moms on here have also found that their LO did not respond to sh/pat (got very worked up) so they just sat near their LO or put a hand on his/her back and let them do the work of falling asleep on their own.

I know it's tough with 2 LOs but it will likely take more than 5-10 minutes. Even my DS (who generally went to sleep faster than DD) still needed 15-20 minutes. Is there something you can set LO1 up with while you are in with LO2 or someone who can come over and give you a hand?

[Scottishmummy]

Thank you- we're using white noise already (sleep sheep) & DD spits a dummy out but I'll try some cot jiggling & failing that just holding her in cot.  Will start at wkend when DH is around to help with DS.  In the week I suppose I'll have to put TV on or give him a game to play on iPad while I'm settling for nap. I am trying to avoid lots of screen time though as it's already increased since having DD.

Until then I'm trying to get our EASY right to give best chance of nap. It's a bit variable at moment but will observe for a few more days & post a general pattern if I'm getting stuck with it or come back if nap not going well

Thank you x

[lily_layne]

For some LOs the sleep sheep isn't loud enough - especially if they're crying. They need to be able to hear it over the crying. If you would like her to take the soother, try gently tugging it as soon as she's sucking - this will make her suck harder. Do this as many times as you can while its in her mouth and it should teach her to keep it in.

Try not to worry about the extra screen time. I believe in limited screen time also but it did go up for DD when DS was born but once we settled into a routine and he got older, there was no problem when it got cut back again.

[lauradj]

Just to clarify, when Lily says 'crying', she's referring to the mantra cry, not CIO.
My two DS' are 18 months apart (so the same as your two) and the first three months were definitely the hardest.  I did initially try to have each nap at home but it got to be too difficult.  DS1 needed to get out and run around!  Now, whenever I have both boys (day care for DS1 3x a week), DS2 has to nap on the go in the morning.  I either put him in the stroller or in the Ergo if we're at the play room.  When he was really little, he was always in the Ergo.  If we were at home, I would try and settle him two or three times but eventually I would just get him up and we'd all head out the door.  It does iron out around 3/4 months.  I also wouldn't worry about the screen time.  We were militant about NO screen time at all with DS1 but the reality is, I need quiet when I'm feeding DS2 or he won't eat, so I pop on Sesame Street.  NBD.  DS1 watches 30mins maximum a day and he'll be just fine.  HTH

[Scottishmummy]

Thank you both, your advice, combined with DH working from home on Friday & being around at the weekend gave me the confidence to bite the bullet & attempt cot naps again.  With some success 

After short wind down I've swaddled DD, put sleep sheep right next to Moses basket & just held her in the basket.  Sometimes need to do a little rockingof the mattress too....and she's gone to sleep! She woke again as soon as I stopped holding her though but a friend suggested bolstering her with rolled up towels between her side and sides of Moses basket so she feels as if she's still being held & that seemed to work.

Cot naps are still short though- under an hour.  She copes with that for first nap but not later ones, so I've APOP-ed her to resettle if I couldn't get her to go back to sleep in Moses basket.

I also have to do a sling nap after 2nd feed so we can leave the house with DS & for catnap as I'm trying to get the meal ready at same time & can't be focused just on nap. 
I'd be pleased if I can get at least first nap & nap after "lunch" in the Moses basket/(cot later) as those are the 2 that will remain longest, as I remember with DS.

So today worked pretty well & looked like this:

WU&E  6.45
A: 1hr20
S: 8.05-9.00 (55mins in Moses basket with resettle in basket at 8.20)

E:9.30
A:1hr10
S: 10.10-12.15 (2hrs5 in sling)

E: 12.30
A: 1hr15
S: 13.30-14.10 (40mins in Moses basket, couldn't resettle in basket)
     14.45-16.15 (1.5hrs in car/car seat)

E: 16.15
A:1hr15
S: 17.30-17.50 (20mins in sling, hard to settle & woke herself)

A
E: 18.30
A
S: 19.45 (total final A time almost 2hrs- long but taking a long time to settle for night and hard to get quiet when DS is running around & shouting!)

[lily_layne]

It sounds like you're on the right track! That's a decent day for a tiny baby.

She copes with that for first nap but not later ones, so I've APOP-ed her to resettle if I couldn't get her to go back to sleep in Moses basket.

I also have to do a sling nap after 2nd feed so we can leave the house with DS & for catnap as I'm trying to get the meal ready at same time & can't be focused just on nap. 

Lots of moms on here do pretty much the same especially with an older LO around - you can't spend as much time resettling as you would with only 1. I did lots of sling naps in the early days with DS and it didn't become a prop issue.

[Scottishmummy]

Thank you for your help.
Routine has continued pretty much the same for the last week (with short disruption due to immunisations).  DD is settling in cot for naps in house but I still hold her to sleep. Yesterday she even re-settled in cot (with my help) when she woke from afternoon nap & settled for 5pm  catnap in cot.

2 questions though
1) When & how should I start trying for more independent sleep. Sometimes I've had to leave her calm but awake in cot to see to DS and she's gone to sleep herself.  Sometimes she hasn't and has needed me to go in & resettle. I'm not sure how to start a less haphazard & inconsistent path to independent sleep.

2) I think she's ready for an A time increase. We were having A times of 1hr10-15. She's still showing tired signs & fussing after 50mins - an hour awake but is taking up to 30mins now to fall asleep.  Do I keep her going through the fussing to put her down a bit later & risk OS/OT or do I just accept longer WD & possible UT nap & see if she pushes the tired signs later herself?

[lily_layne]

When & how should I start trying for more independent sleep.

There's no perfect time. It's really mostly determined by when you feel you'll have the time and resources to tackle it. That said, if I were you, I probably would keep going as is. If she's settling on her own sometimes, that's a great start and I found with both of mine that slowly they started to go to sleep on their own more and more often without much "sleep training" from me. (Although, it wasn't until about 5/6 months that IS happened for pretty much all naps so if you want it to happen sooner, it may take some intervention.)

Do I keep her going through the fussing to put her down a bit later & risk OS/OT or do I just accept longer WD & possible UT nap & see if she pushes the tired signs later herself?

I would try to push it a bit, keeping the last 10-20 minutes really low key and see what happens.

[Scottishmummy]

I would try to push it a bit, keeping the last 10-20 minutes really low key and see what happens.

Thank you, tried this today & it worked like a charm.
 I tried to do a bit more with her during A time (toys, baby gym) as have realised that she's now at a stage when just being awake isn't enough stimulation for a good nap. Then low stimulation activity after 1hr for 10mins & started WD at 1hr10. she fell asleep easily after 10mibs, giving total A time of 1hr20 (pretty typical for 10wks?)....and she took long cot naps, a first for her. 

I'm still amazed at how "textbook" she is.  DS (spirited/touchy baby) would never have responded so quickly & easily to any of this.

[lily_layne]

I'm still amazed at how "textbook" she is.  DS (spirited/touchy baby) would never have responded so quickly & easily to any of this.

I know what you mean. My DS is textbook also and it was such a change from spirited DD. It still amazes me how easily he recovers from OT and catches up on sleep compared to DD and that I can use routines from sleep books and they work!

1h20 is typical for her age.

[Conniesmummy]

Just wanted to offer some reassurance. If you notice have posted lots of questions on here as I had a serial none napper.
I haven't done anything major except keep trying nap time at home as they change and develop from day to day. I thought I'd have a baby that would only sleep in my arms or on the go, then one day around 11-12 weeks, she suddenly slept on the sofa past half an hour which was always her maximum!  Due to safety issues I wasn't happy on the sofa unless I was with her which defeated the object of them napping so I could have a little me time and she could rest and be a happy baby!
I thought if you can do it there why not your cot. I know watch for sleepy cues, usually around 1 hr 15- 1hr 30, she turns her head and puts her thumb to her mouth so I take her up, pop her sleeping bag on, we use a lightweight in the daytime, and tell her it's nap time, mummy loves her and will see her shortly. The room is dark and I close the door. At worst she will mantra cry or grumble for about 5 mins, otherwise she goes off straight away.
I now worry about her not napping on the move as she so blummin nosey lol
Hope this gives you some hope, I used to get so upset and cry when she wouldn't nap cos we all need a break from them, despite loving them. My dd is an ivf baby so very desperately wanted, however it is a very exhausting day with a lo, especially when you then have limited adult time when they go to bed cos you try and sleep not knowing when they will wake!

[Scottishmummy]

Thank you, Conniesmum.  So glad your DD has settled for naps now.  No matter how much you want them, they are still exhausting. 
My DD is getting there slowly but still needs us to help her in her cot.Usually works unless I miss her sleepy cues like today when I forgot to adjust A times for short nap & got a series of short, sad over tired naps.  Hoping for a better day tomorrow.

[Conniesmummy]

You're welcome.
We just seem to tackle one thing and are presented with another!  Parenthood x

[Scottishmummy]

So true!

After a good day on Sunday, the last 2 have not worked.  Lots of missing sleepy cues & then OT 30 min naps. Think I'm clock watching too much & not watching DD enough but it's so hard with DS around

[sunflower321]

Just wanted to say I think you're doing really well! I have 2 years between mine and yes it's really hard. Personally I believe do whatever works for sleep in the early days. My poor dd1 was desperately over tired and hardly ever slept until at 9 weeks I discovered a sling and that changed our lives! She started sleeping finally. Too much! I used to have to wake her after 4 hours for feeds! Everyone said it would be too hard a habit to break but she slept in her cot no problem when she was ready at about 14 weeks. My dd2 was a bad napper. The sling didn't work so well for her because of the noisy house with dd1 in it! She would only ever take 30 min naps and stayed up til about 11pm. But I just went with that and kept on top of the naps even though they were short to make sure ot didn't set in. I often had to sleep holding her in my arms in bed at night. Again there was no problem breaking that after 3 months.
I just wanted to tell you for both of mine sleep dramatically improved after 3 months so hang in there. And meanwhile don't worry too much about IS. It will happen.

[Scottishmummy]

Thank you, sunflower- only a few weeks to go until 12wks for us.

The sling is so helpful for us too. DD has at least one long nap in it everyday (mainly so we can leave house with DS) but I also use it if she's got OT & won't settle in cot, or for resettling or if she has had a succession of short naps & I need to get a long one in.

Sling saved today as we were out & about so I managed to get a couple of long catch up naps in it & then she settled in cot when we got home (another 1hr20 A time, but into cot at 1hr05) & slept 2hrs all by herself. I had to wake her so she didn't sleep into bedtime.

So I can see progress is there, just need to try not to miss those sleep cues! Xxx

[lily_layne]

I just wanted to tell you for both of mine sleep dramatically improved after 3 months so hang in there.

Things often do get easier then - it's the end of the "fourth trimester" and those tiny babies become more ready for the world.

[Scottishmummy]

So we're at the magic 12 weeks now.

DD is doing about 1.5hrs A time & starting to self-settle for naps but won't sleep longer than 40 mins in her cot. I've seen a few people talk about a short nap phase about this age. Is that a common thing?  I seem to remember DS not routinely taking long naps until he was 5 or 6months old.

I'm not too bothered as sometimes we APOP a long nap to prevent OT, or if we get a day of 4 short naps, we do an earlier bedtime & get a longer night, so she's getting enough sleep (14-15hrs) but a long nap in the house would be lovely to give DS some quality time & maybe me a rest too!

[Conniesmummy]

Hello again, they change all the time. Our naps are completely off again, the dreaded 4 month spurt!! Think I need to adjust awake times, but I'm struggling with pnd at the min so brain isn't at its best 
We're back to crappy short naps again. 45 min tops!
I wouldn't mind I half thought about it this morning. To push her another 15 mins. It gets hard to read sleepy cues as they now look like bored signals! We're is the instruction book?!!

[lily_layne]

That's the prime age for 40 minute naps. Both of mine had a big A time jump at that age (from 1.5 hrs to almost 2). You could try pushing the A time to see if it helps. If it doesn't change things, then I would keep on as you are.

[Conniesmummy]

I feel like giving it all up and hoping for the best!! The more u seem to try and get it right the more I geddit wrong!!!

[Scottishmummy]

Hugs to you Conniesmum, they do like to change things around, just as you think you got it sorted. Sorry you've got PND too, I hope you are getting some support. These early days are really hard.

With my first (DS) I used to worry a lot about getting nap length right but in the end went along with more short naps & eventually he extended his A time & started taking a long nap at lunchtime. I'm kind of expecting same will happen with DD eventually so am riding through more frequent short naps & waiting for A time jump & longer naps to come.

[lily_layne]

With my first (DS) I used to worry a lot about getting nap length right but in the end went along with more short naps & eventually he extended his A time & started taking a long nap at lunchtime. I'm kind of expecting same will happen with DD eventually so am riding through more frequent short naps & waiting for A time jump & longer naps to come.

This is a good plan. The long naps will come and I know it's easier said than done, but it's really not worth getting worked up over nap length. I spent way too much time tying myself into knots over DD's naps and I worked really hard to be more relaxed with DS and even when things get tough with him it never feels as tough as it did with DD because my attitude's changed.