EASY with 3 to 2 transition?

[Antie66]

Hi everyone,

I only started putting my 5 month old on the 4-hour EASY routine 3 days ago, but the pu/pd method has already been a GREAT SUCCESS. He now goes down for his morning and afternoon nap with only a few minutes of shush-pat and without feeding (I do have an angel baby  ! Bedtime goes great too, although that may be partly because I do still feed him as part of the bedtime ritual and although he doesn't fall asleep on the boob completely, he usually is pretty drowsy. I am having a lot of problems with putting him down for his catnap though. The other naps and bedtime take only minutes of shush-patting to get him to sleep, but the catnap has taken 60, 40 and 50 minutes of pu/pd before he went to sleep. By which time it was really almost time to get up. He has taken one or two 2-hour naps, but usually they are 1 hr 15 or 1.5 hrs long. Because he also feeds very quickly, it means he already often is active for about 2.5 hrs. He also still wakes very early in the morning and I'm wondering whether he needs to move to 2 sleeps instead of 3 or whether he's too young? Would I continue to establish the 4-hour routine (I follow the one straight from the book) as I only just started, or is there a way to drop the catnap earlier? Thanks

[lily_layne]

It sounds like he may be ready to be rid of the catnap but it would help if I could see the timings in a typical day. Could you post them like this:
WU: 7
E: 715
S: 9-10:30, etc.

Also, Tracy didn't intend for the routines to be followed exactly as written - she really understood that each LO will be slightly different so don't worry if your LO doesn't do exactly what's in the book.

[Antie66]

Hi Lily, thanks so much for replying to both my posts. I'll continue both on this one like you suggested. I realise the EASY routine isn't about clock work, but it was recommended in the book to stick to it (like a schedule) for the first week or so. So that's what we've been doing. However, it is getting more and more difficult, as he keeps waking up from his naps early and even 40 minutes of shush-patting isn't sending him back to dreamland. Same thing for the CN - it takes about 50 minutes to get him to sleep, and although I then only let him sleep for 30 min, it means I have delayed BT. You mentioned PU/PD is only a last resort for deeply entrenched sleep problems and I'm wondering whether we have just that. We have been EBF for 5 months and I always nursed him to sleeep, for naps and BT with more and more awakenings (half way through his naps and many during night time). Although the EASY routine, the shush-pat and pu/pd has improved things greatly we are struggling and I woukd very much appreciate your advice. I apologise in advance for the long post!!!

He does go to sleep for his morning (9am) and early afternoon (1pm) nap fairly easily (max of 10 minutes of patting). Apart from 1 (out of 5) morning naps he has woken up in the middle (after 30-45 minutes) of each of those and half the time I didn't manage to get him back to sleep (I would try until 11am) and he's never slept through an afternoon nap either, although I do manage to get him back to sleep each time (with about 10 min of patting). The catnaps are a disaster. I always start winding him down around 4.30pm, but despite these efforts it has taken 50 minutes on average to get him to sleep (he falls asleep between 5.30pm and 5.50).

He has gone to sleep at 8pm at night after a very clear routine that includes a feed. It takes no time at all. I plan a dream feed at 11pm, but apart from 1 night he has woken up before this feed - at which point I would feed him, put him to be while still somewhat awake and he'd be back to sleep with 5-10 minutes of patting. He wakes up very early and I caved and gave him a feed on 2 mornings, after which I managed to get him back to sleep until 7am.

Day 1
WU 7
E 7.10
S 9.15-9.35 (after 25 min pupd) (did pu/pd from 9.35-11, but did not go to sleep)
E 11.05
S 1.05-1.35 (after 10 min pu/pd) and 2-2.40 (after 25 min pu/pd)
E 3
S 5.45-6.20 (after 60 min pu/pd)
E 6.30
E 7.45 (bt routine)
BT 8pm
Awake 10.50 (at which point I fed him)
Awake 2.30-3.40
Awake 4.30-4.50

Day 2:
WU 6am
E 7
S 9.05-11 (I wake him)
E 11.05
S 1-1.45pm and 1.55-2.45pm
E 3.25 pm
S 5.45-6.30 (after 45 min pupd) (i wake him up)
E 6.30
E 7.45 ( as part of bt routine)
Bt 8 pm

Awake during night at 11pm (i then fed him)
Awake 00:40-00:45 am
Awake 4.35-6.05am (nappy change and E at 5.30am)

Day 3:
WU 7am
E 7.15 am
S 9.00-10.20
E 11.15
S 1pm-1.30pm and 1.45-2.30pm
E 3pm
S 5.30pm (after 50 min)
E 7.45 pm
BT 8 pm

Dreamfeed at midnight (i slept through my alarm and he hadn't woken up)
Awake 04.40-5.30 (Nappy change and E 5am)

Day 4
WU 7am
E 7.30
S 9.05-9.50 and 10.30-11.10
E 11.30am
S 5-5.40 pm (in car)
E 7.45
Bt 8pm

Awake during night 10.35 (I then fed him)
Awake 01.45-3.40 am

Day 5
WU 6.50 am
E 7 am
S 9.00-9.40 am (shush pat until 11 am but no sleep)
E 11.15 am
S 12.15-12.45 and (1.15pm until now ....)

I would very much appreciate your advice on how to deal with the waking during naps and waking around 10-11pm (because my 'dream' feeds are now just feeds). And the early and long wakings during the night .... :-)

Thank you so much!! Louise

[lily_layne]

He wakes up very early and I caved and gave him a feed on 2 mornings, after which I managed to get him back to sleep until 7am.

I wouldn't consider it caving in. LO's often need a feed very early in the morning to get them through to a decent wake up. If he's up around 5/530, I would just feed (diaper change if needed) and pop him back into bed. I also wouldn't wake him if he sleeps through your planned dreamfeed - especially if you are having to wake up to do it. You might as well just get up when he wakes and he may do ok without it. I usually ended up feeding DS for almost all of his NWs (except sometimes pre-midnight ones where he would take a paci). It didn't become a problem. DS had a lot of long, chatty NWs at that age until I discovered that it was best if I went in after about 15-20 minutes of chatting and fed him - he ate and then went down awake, sang a little baby song and went to sleep.

It sounds like he's heading into the 3-2 transition but I'm not sure if he's ready to drop the CN totally, especially if you get short naps in the day. Around 5 months, most LOs need a bit of APOP to get them to do the CN (both of mine sure did!). I found it was a good time to pop LO into the stroller or sling and go for a walk. If at home, I used the swing or just rocked LO to sleep.

Looking at what you posted, I think what's happening is that he is a bit UT for the first nap so it ends up being short (and that's why he won't go back to sleep) but then OT from a long A time coming off of a short nap for the second nap (which is why he's easier to resettle). I'm chalking up the CN resistance to his age and being ready to drop it. I would try pushing that first A time out a bit to see if he gets a better nap - probably to 2h15 (or 2h30 if you think he can handle it - he may do ok since his pm nap shows he's easier to resettle if OT which would give you a longer nap). You'll have to be reasonably consistent for a few days before you'll see a change. If the first nap is short, I would shorten the next A time to 2 hours. I know it brings the nap earlier but then you'll have more room for a CN and he's less likely to be OT. If you get a good nap, aim for 2h15/2h30. The pm nap will likely continue to be broken for a while as he probably has some accumulated OT.

I am thinking of something like this:
WU: 7
S: 9:15/9:30-10:45/11
S: 1:15/1:30-2:45/3
CN: 5:30-6
BT: 7:30/8 (BT will get earlier as he starts getting rid of the CN)

A day that starts with a short nap might look like:
WU: 7
S: 9:15-10
S: 12-1:30 (or whenever he wakes)
CN: 4:30/4:45-5:15/5:30 (or whatever length you know works for him)
BT: 7:30/8

What do you think?

[Antie66]

Thank you very much for your advice. This morning I did another early morning feed (5.45am) and he actually slept until 8am! I am just a bit worried about feeding him at night (or early morning), as that's exactly the reason for starting the EASY routine - to break the association between boob and falling asleep. But he now does go back to bed awake and actually needing help to get back to sleep. This morning I kept him up only until 9.45 because he was very tired (this was already a struggle), a lot of eye rubbing, yawning and burrowing his head in my shoulders, and lo and behold ... he has not woken up from his morning nap after his usual 45 minutes.

I have been doing (a lot of) shush-patting to try and get him back to sleep after he would be waking up early from his nap (as the book recommended), whereas you are saying to just get on with the day and make adjustments to the routine to try and influence it. I'm pretty happy with that because after a (long!) week of a lot of shush-patting I'm getting a sore back and throat! And the crying at the CN is really frustrating, given that he goes to sleep reasonably well for the other naps and bedtime.

Regarding the dream feed - I have been trying to tank him up before the night, partly because I figured he was used to eating throughout the night and because now that he feeds more awake he's very distracted and doesn't always feed super well during his day feeds. The only reason I had to wake up for it, is that I'm still catching up  on sleep after 5 months of him waking him and me getting up to put him on the boob about every 2-3 hours at night!! ... Last night (after a couple of nights of improved sleep thanks to EASY!!) was the first time I stayed up, gave the dream feed at 10pm and then went to bed (he did wake up at 1am, but I shush-patted him back to sleep in 10 minutes and then I fed him at 5.45am for him to sleep until 8am).

What's the strategy of transitioning from him needing the shush-patting to being able to fall asleep on his on? Would I leave the room and only go back in when serious crying starts (there is only a little cooing and talking, but this very quickly turns to mantra crying of being tired but not able to fall asleep). Or does this just gradually happen over a longer period of time - it's only been a week after all!!

[lily_layne]

whereas you are saying to just get on with the day and make adjustments to the routine to try and influence it.

Yep! If you know he's OT, you'll be able to resettle but if he's just not tired, you'd probably both be happier just getting on with your day. Some moms on here set a time limit of 20-30 minutes for resettling and some (mostly those with older LOs) decide not to resettle at all.

At his age, 1-2 night feeds is totally normal so it may take a lot of work if you want him to go from the DF to WU without a feed.

I would leave the room and only go back if he's doing an "I need you" cry - leave him to try and work it out if he's just fussing and mantra crying. Some LO's just stop needing the sh/pat all of a sudden (but may need it if they are OT or a bit unwell) and others need you to gradually reduce the shushing and patting. I would give it a bit more time before you worry about stopping the sh/pat.

[Antie66]

I just wanted to post a wee update - after my lo went to bed at 7.30pm I didn't wake him for a dream feed last night and he didn't wake until midnight. Gave him a feed at that point and he pretty much fell straight back to sleep and didn't wake until 6.30am! Amazing!!!
The naps are still a nightmare and all over the place. Trying to forget about the clock for a couple of days and just putting him down whenever he looks tired. I read in another post some wee ones can stay up longer (or shorter) the first A time compared to the 2nd A time.

I did read in another post by a moderator to do the shhh-pat after all when waking up early from a nap, because otherwise they think sleep time is over (which it shouldn't be). My lo still wakes up early from naps (still tired, not smiling like he would do after a good 1.5-2 hr nap) and I'm confused whether to try and extend his naps with shhh-pat or pu-pd or whether to just get him up?
X

[lily_layne]

Yay for a great night! I didn't dream feed with either of my LOs - I just fed them whenever they woke.

You're right - some LO's do have different length A times. Both of mine preferred a short morning A time.

It's really up to you what to do with short naps. If you feel you have the stamina for it, you can try to extend with sh/pat or pu/pd. I would only try for 20-30 minutes though. If you're feeling low on energy, it is ok to just get LO up and move on with your day.

Do you want to post a recent day and I can see if there's anything that can be tweaked?

[Antie66]

*PLEASE HELP*

I'm experiencing a MAJOR set-back with the effectiveness of the shush-pat, even for the early morning nap when everything normally used to run quite smoothly (and lo is back to sleeping for 1hr15 or 1hr30). I post it in this thread, as you said to keep my questions in the one post, but I'd be interested to find out other people's experiences and the title of this thread is not representative of this issue. My lo seems to have grown an aversion to the shush-pat to the point I'm afraid he is starting to seriously become frightened of his cot, as he now starts crying almost the moment I put him down. Where the shush-pat has been very effective in calming, soothing and sending him to sleep for over a week, since about 3 days he simply goes hysterical. Apart from crying (screaming), he arches his back, sling his arm around (he's on his side for the patting, but tries to get on his back, pushing against my hands). It's even at BT when he used to fall asleep within a minute - it has turned into an hour of screaming! I am so desperate (have been standing next to the cot in tears a lot!) I just don't know what to do and it's so bad that I resorted to putting him to sleep in my bed on the breast (!!!!!) THE very thing I never wanted to do again. How do I calm him without resorting to some form of AP? With the PU/PD I would also pat his back and shush, so I can't do that either. He's still not able to fall asleep alone, he always starts gurning, then mantra crying, then serious crying, but when I then start the patting he just goes crazy ... What can I do???

[lily_layne]

(((hugs))) That's tough. Feel free to start a new thread if you want more eyes. I just suggested sticking to one so you didn't have 2 going at the same time but you can start a new one whenever you feel your needs have changed.

Is it possible that he's ready for more A time? Some LO's go crazy when they're not quite ready to sleep. If it's really getting frustrating, I would AP for a day or 2 and then try to get back on track. If you don't want to AP the only thing I can think of to try is to take him out of his room for a minute or two when he goes crazy. I do that with DS - we just walk around the kitchen and I sing - and it seems to calm him down enough to have another try at going to sleep.

[Antie66]

I will post the problem with shush-pat in a new thread. I think athe problem is that he's been over tired rather then undertired when going to bed. But even if I time it right and he coos in his cot for a while, he then starts mantra cries, which turn into real cries and I don't know how to sooth him... :-( Or he goes quiet after while of walking around and leaving the bedroom, but when I put him down he starts screaming. I feel that after 2 days of AP and nursing to sleep again, I'm back to square one (well perhaps two to be optimistic). Could I do PU/PD without the patting or shushing? Thanks for your support, it means a lot!

[lily_layne]

If you follow PU/PD "by the book" it doesn't involve sh/pat. There's some good links in the FAQs. Definitely start a new post about PU/PD - that way you should get some people who have done it and might have better advice than I can give you.