Author Topic: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!  (Read 3601 times)

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Offline eogan0622

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7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« on: December 06, 2015, 13:09:52 pm »
Hi All,

I'm really frustrated right now- I feel like I've been posting the same thing for 3 months!  My DD is 7.5 months and is waking up CONSTANTLY throughout the night.  Some nights it is just 2 or 3 times and these have become our "GOOD" nights.  She is still feeding 2x a night, but I don't think she needs to.  When she wakes up and it's not feeding time, DH usually is the one to go in and try to calm her- we started PU/PD at 5 months but we don't even really do that anymore.  We hold her until she calms down and she usually passes out on us and then we put her back. No rocking or pacifier at night, unless we're totally desperate.  Basically it's a huge mess and often, when DH goes down to calm her, he's down there for 45 min + and I end up having to go down and feed her after all.  It is really bad and I can't figure out what to do.  Last night, DH was away so I was all alone.  I was up with her at 8, 9, 10, 12:15, and 2:15-4:30 and then up for the day at 6:50.  OMG.  Nothing I did to soothe her was working and she was wide awake from 2:15-4:30. 

I really need a new plan.  I know PU/PD changes when they are older, but the brief paragraph in the PU/PD section isn't painting a good enough picture for me- does anyone have experience doing PU/PD with older babies?

Her EASY right now is typically:

645: WU
7:30: E
8:30: Solids
9:15-10:30: S (we do set naps)
11:00 E
12:00: Solids
1:30-3:00: S
3:00: E
4:00: solids (sometimes)
6:15: bathtime/bedtime routine
6:30: E

We really need help.  I don't want to do CC or CIO but I feel like I'm out of answers!!!  Please any advice or suggestions would help.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2015, 19:47:52 pm »
So sorry you're feeling down, it is tough when they wake up that often. You do know cc or CIO isn't the answer don't you? We will find another way.

I can see you do set naps and that's fine, but have you noticed there's quite a difference between your first and last A? Has she always liked a longer. A to BT?

With that many NW's I would assume discomfort. Have you ruled out teething at all? Failing that I wonder if you have a prop now and she's relying on you to fall back to sleep at night. When DD was little I made it my mission to make sure she wakes up in her room exactly how she fell asleep. So I made sure I wasn't there when she fell asleep. I'm thinking perhaps as she falls asleep on either of you, then wakes up in bed on her own it's disturbing her a little wdyt? This is a prime age for separation anxiety, have you noticed any of that during the day? Xx

Eta.. I'm just reading over your previous posts. Am I right in thinking the NW's have gotten worse since the naps are longer and since you implemented the set naps? X
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 19:52:18 pm by Kellyjs »



Offline eogan0622

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2015, 20:17:43 pm »
Hi,

Thanks for your response.  I do know that CC and CIO are not the answer and not the path I want to take.  I'm just tired and frustrated. 

Since doing set naps- I don't know if she "likes" a longer A to BT?  But I'm not quite sure how to avoid it? I try to do bath and bedtime routine 3 hrs after she gets up, but maybe I need to scale it back?  My concern is that early BT will lead to EW?

I, too, have been assuming discomfort, since I am 99% sure her bottom 2 teeth are coming in....but it's been forever, and I feel like I still need a way to manage the NW since she'll be teething on and off for at least another year! Yikes!

I do definitely notice some separation anxiety during the day.  She no longer can tolerate when DH puts her to bed, so I always have to end up going in and putting her down.  I totally agree, I wish she was falling asleep on her own in the crib- and she really was for awhile while we were in the throes of PU/PD...but now I don't even know how to restart with her!

And in regards to your last questions about worsening as the naps are longer- I can't honestly pinpoint when things have been getting worse- It seems like within a week we'll have 1-2 "good" or "better" nights and the rest are awful. I can't really confirm if it's nap length related or what!

What is your advice for moving forward? What's the best way to re-start the PU/PD process or whatever process with a 7.5 month old?!

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2015, 13:39:11 pm »
Ok let's work on the separation anxiety during the day. There are a few things you can do to help that. I'll post a link for you to have a read through.

Separation Anxiety

Problem is, that last A is nearing 4hrs rather than 3 isn't it? I wonder if we look at extending that first. A and shaving the same amount if time off the end? Wdyt? So set the new nap times for 9.30 and 1.45 pm and hopefully that'll bring the last A a little shorter as BT will still be at the same time after a wu from the nap at 3.15pm. Does that work with family life?

Wrt NW's I would go back to pu/pd and prepare to stick with it for a week. It will be tough but I do think she might be relying on you to help her back to sleep. At this age we only really pd if she stands up and actually use our voice a lot more and try and soothe in her bed rather than picking up. It will involve crying I'm presuming but it will get better ok? Choose a sleepy phrase like 'it's time for sleep now darling' or similar and work on gradually leaving the room, of course returning immediately if she starts crying. Hand on her again, repeat your sleepy phrase and go to leave again. Rinse and repeat basically xx

How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 13:44:06 pm by Kellyjs »



Offline eogan0622

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 14:55:26 pm »
Hi,

Thanks for your suggestions! Yesterday I put her down 3 hrs after last nap of the day, which was 6:15, and it only took 1x PU/PD and she was out.  She woke up 1 hr later and DH did PU/PD a few times and she was back down within 10 mins.  She got up at 12:30 am and 3:30 am and I fed her both times, then she woke up for the day at 7.  Overall, much better.  However, I would like to push that 1st feeding out, as I think she can go at least 8 hrs between feeds. 

Do you think I should start doing this?  Do PU/PD until we hit that 2am mark?

I put her down at 9:30 today for nap, she fell asleep at 9:40 so hopefully this will push our day back a little!


Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2015, 19:49:39 pm »
Excellent, if we can find the right A time to BT it'll make everything so much better for you all. This definitely sounds like we're heading down the right path doesn't it?

She's BF isn't she? I think we'd expect for two NF's for a while yet, but you know her best. If you feel she isn't hungry you could try the pu/pd but tbh if she's settling well after those feeds I'd probably keep them for now whilst we sort out the day time routine. Wdyt? Obviously don't feed more often than twice but that 12.30am one looks ok as it's a decent time after BT. We can look at weaning the 3am one in time. Is she still taking a decent  feed upon wu in the morning? If not, we can look at reducing the time BF for the 3am one.

How did that first nap go? You may find once she starts sleeping a bit better at night, she'll want to lengthen that first A even more too, just to keep us on our toes of course  ;) xx



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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2015, 00:40:01 am »
Hi Again,

Thanks! 

Well her first nap today was not great.  She woke up at 35 mins and has figured out how to go from belly to sitting to pulling up on crib.  I could not get her down, tried for 30+ mins, and then threw in the towel.  But she seemed in good spirits and went down for her 2nd nap at 1:00, asleep at 1:15 and slept for 1 hr 15 mins no wake up.  In order to last until bed time, I APOP'd a little 15 min CN at 4:45.  She went down for bed at 6:45 and it took 20 mins PU/PD (from DH) to get her to sleep.

I'll try again tomorrow for the 9:30 1st nap- hopefully I can get a longer nap out of her.

Thanks for your suggestions re: nighttime feedings.  She definitely eats a lot each feed, so maybe I need to keep things the same for now.  She's been taking a little more solids during the day so maybe things will just even out on their own.  She does still take a good feed in the AM- if she eats at 4am, I usually wait until 30-40 mins after she wakes up for the day to feed her instead of right away. 

So do you think that I should just go ahead and feed her when she wakes for the first time, even if it's as early as 1130?

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2015, 19:47:59 pm »
Mine never liked to be fed straight away after wu either. It's just the way some are.

Wrt the NFs I would pick those two times you're prepared to feed and use pu/pd for all other NW's. If it is 20mins or so earlier I would just feed as I'd prefer it being a little earlier myself so I could catch some sleep before the next feed. She probably won't wake at actually the same time every night but if you have it in your head you're prepared to feed after 11.30pm once, then after say 3am once then at least then you have a plan before you attend to her iykwim? I think it's always nice to have a plan  ;)

Argh the pulling up stuff is yucky for sleep for a week or two. It totally throws things up in the air. It can also be a sign of UT because if they are tired enough they'd just sleep yk? Instead of all that nonsense  ::). Do practise teaching her to get back down in your A time though. It really helps. We used to play ring o ring roses (just standing holding hands) then when the bit came to 'we all fall down' I eased her down with my hands, just pulling every so slightly down so she sat on her bum. It really helped us too as we had chronic UT issues when that was going on and the fact she could get back down in the crib on her own stopped the freaked out crying!

Good luck tomorrow, keep me posted xx



Offline eogan0622

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2015, 00:42:56 am »
Will try that plan tonight for feedings.


Seems that naps have now taken a turn for the worst as well.  I have at least one nap a day that involves me having to extend after 30 minute wake up- and it's getting harder and harder to get her back down.  From my previous posts on other threads, I was trying to extend the naps no matter what, just to get the time of the naps down- so I've been sitting with her, giving her pacifier, doing what she needs to help her fall back asleep.  Should I stop this and start PU/PD again?  Some naps she is able to go at it alone the whole time, no wake up at all.  But most she wakes..usually at 35-40 min mark.  Should I re-post on nap board?

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2015, 08:53:16 am »
More than happy to help you out wrt naps here if you'd like? If you wouldn't mind posting what the last 2 days looked like in easy format I'll take a look for you. DD was the princess of short naps, drove me nuts  ::) xx



Offline eogan0622

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2015, 14:45:45 pm »
Sure thing- thanks.  Also, last night went *great*.  Put her down early, since she got up early from nap #2.  Down at 6pm.  Up to eat at 12:50 and 3:30 and then slept until 7. 

EASY for the past 2 days:

Tuesday:
6:50: WU
7:00: E
8:30: solids
9:40-10:15: S (couldn't get back down)
10:45: E
1:00: E
1:15-2:30: S
4:16: E
4:40-5:00: CN
6:30: E
7:00: S

*NW: 7:30, 9:00, 11:35, 1:00, 3:55

Wednesday:
7:00 WU
7:20: E
8:30: Solids
9:25-11:00: S (10:00-10:20 WU, able to get back down after 20 mins)
11:10: E
12:15: Solids
1:30: E (knew she wouldn't last through a nap without another feed- she only eats 5-6 mins/feed during the day)
1:55-2:30: S- tried for 45 mins to get her back down, but no success
4:30: E
5:00: Solids (a little rice cereal)
5:30: bath/etc
5:50: E
6:05 pm: S

*NW: 12:50, 3:15

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2015, 08:32:28 am »
I'm actually a little surprised by your easy.

From what it shows 3.5hrs to BT after a short nap and no OT NW's?? I think we have to concentrate on getting rid of that CN don't we? It's obviously causing you and her more issues than it's worth.

I think we're going have to play around with that first A. I'm unsure if that first nap on day one is OT or not. At 7.5mo I'd expect that first A to be about right at 3+ hrs but the fact you couldn't get her to go back down leads me to believe UT is at play. That being said, you did manage to get her back down after a shorter A, so I think we'll try and find a middle ground wdyt? Perhaps try 2hrs 35mims first A?

I would also look at extending that second A actually. 3hrs seems to give you an UT nap? Even after a short or long nap beforehand. Let's try 3hr 15mins and see if that helps? In either case it should shift the day later for you so that last  a to BT isn't so long and there will be no need for a CN? Wdyt? Want to give it a go and let me know how it goes? I wonder if she's trying to tell us she likes a shorter A first thing then progressively longer ones throughout the day, but time will tell xx



Offline eogan0622

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2015, 20:10:54 pm »
Yes, she seems to surprise me every day.  Something that may have worked the day before might not the next day.  Always keeping me guessing. 

I'd say 90% of our days we are down to 2 naps- it's only if she has a really crappy nap that I have to add one in to get her to BT, and then I try to keep in 20 mins or under.  Occasionally it's in the car or front back etc but I'd say in the last 2 weeks she's only had to have 2 CN.

Another good night last night, up at 1:00 and 4:20 to eat.

Today, we're trying your suggestions for A times.

6:55: WU
9:30-10:45: S (no wake ups)
1:50-3:10: S (no wake ups)--> she never makes it past 1hr 15 mins when she sleeps straight thru.

Thoughts?

I'm going to do BT at 6:30 tonight again.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2015, 07:34:16 am »
This looks great, well done you. How did the night go?

It could well be that's her 2 sleep cycles, but we'll keep an eye on it. In any case it's longer than an hour so definitely considered restorative and much better than where you were a few weeks ago isn't it? I'd hold these A times for the next couple of days and see if she settles into it. It may be we have to extend again but we'll reassess in the next day or two xx



Offline eogan0622

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2015, 14:38:41 pm »
Good! Things are definitely improving.  The evening after my last reply was good- PD at 6:30pm and slept until 12:30, fed, and then up at 2:45- did PU/PD, then fed at 5:30, back to sleep until 6:45.

6:45: WU
8:30: solids
8:50: E (had fed last at 5:30)
9:20-10:30: S
10:50: E
1:05: E (was not feeling solids today, topped of before nap)
1:35-2:55: S
3:30: E
5:00: solids
6:35: S

NW: 12:00 (fed), 2:30 (PU/PD for 1 or 2x), 5:30 (fed)

*at 5:30 feed she was wide awake, put back down to sleep, was up on/off until 6:20.  Slept 6:20-7:20.

She seems to keep waking at the 12:00 time and at the 2:30 time- but is able to get back down at 2:30 and go until 5ish for a feed.  However, that 5:00 feed seems to wake her up more...any thoughts around this?


Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2015, 14:50:15 pm »
I think it's because we still need to work on moving that first nap out soon. She's trying to start her day from then, but can't quite as needs the extra sleep. The NF at this time could wake her up more as it's so close to waking up for the day, so she was in light sleep. Just like us really. If something disturbs me from 5.30am onwards, I find it difficult to go back to sleep too.

Overall, I think we're getting there. I would like to see the day length increased slightly as I feel we should be working towards 11.5hrs ONS rather than 12, given the time taken up with the NW's, but with increasing the first A again by 15mins, I think we could get close to it soon. Wdyt? Fancy giving another increase a go in the next day or two? Xx



Offline eogan0622

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2015, 14:46:44 pm »
OK.  I'm cautious about adding too much time to the first A, as I feel like she is genuinely ready for a nap by 930 and has been sleeping really well during these naps, but I will try to add 10 mins this week to see how it goes.  Yesterday went something like this:

7:20: WU
9:55-11:25: S (the longest she's ever slept without a wake up!)
2:45-3:20: S (could not get back to sleep, was awake and playing in crib for 20-30 mins, not crying ever)
6:30: S

NW: 10:45 (seemed very uncomortable- suspect teething), 11:50 (fed and gave motrin), 3:50 (fed)- woke up at 6:05 and did not go back down. 

Got her out of bed today at 6:30.  Down for first nap at 8:50 (had been awake since 6:05)

Another question- and perhaps I should post this on a different board if you think it's more appropriate.  We are heading out for a few weeks of travel in a couple days and I'm nervous about all the sleep things.  Here are some questions:

1.) Our flight is early in the morning, requiring us to leave the house at 6am.  What would you suggest as a good process for waking/trying to keep DD asleep, knowing her patterns as stated in previous posts of EASY routine?  The drive to the airport is about 20 mins....

2) We are traveling for 5 days to Aruba, where the time difference there is 1 hour ahead.  Then we are traveling to visit family for 10 days where the time is our local time, so 1 hour behind what it will be in Aruba.  Is it worth trying to adjust her to the new time just for 5 days or try to keep her a little later so she can adjust better back to regular time after Aruba?

3) Any tips or suggestions for keeping naps and night time sleep solid while traveling??  Should I plan on reducing A time? Early BT?

Thanks.....

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2015, 18:21:10 pm »
You're right, that first nap does look good. The wu that morning looked nice too!

It might be that the second A actually needs an increase rather then. Definitely seems UT there. Perhaps that's where we add on the 15mins extra A time for now?

Travelling... That sounds amazing before I forget to say! Is it for Xmas?
I only just recently travelled with DD at 2yo choosing to not do it before that. We've never really had a need like visiting family abroad.

I would aim for an EBT the night before if you can? Even if she does her 6.30am BT, a wu of 5.30am or even a little later will still be 11hrs ONS and she should be fine. I think you shouldn't even try to keep her asleep. It's just not going to happen. My motto is plan for the worst.. If she falls asleep, bonus, but set your expectations low ok? It's going to be exciting and she will pick up on your nervousness.

No I wouldn't try and adjust to the new time. I would just go by the old clock considering it's only for 5days. And actually the EBT for her (albeit normal time) might allow you some extra time with your family? That's how I'd look at it!

Yes, there will probably be lots of extra stimulation with lots of family around. You really do have to go with the flow and try not be too regimented during this time ok? Tbh it's when we've been away with family I've realised what tweaks I can make to Dd's routine as to what she can handle with the extra stimulation. The odd later BT really doesn't matter. Sometimes they sleep in the next morning, sometimes not. But then you can guarantee she'll take a longer nap and balance it out if you just give her chance. I would also suggest not capping naps so much either, unless they go over 2hrs. As inevitably that'll be the day they need a later BT. Do you see where I'm going with this? It will be an upheaval, but once you get back home again you'll be more confident as to what she's capable of, trust me. Then a few days at home and everything settles back down to normal again. Does that help? Xx





Offline eogan0622

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2015, 19:51:54 pm »
Thank you so much again.  Your travel advice sounds right on- I know I need to just let go a bit when we travel- it's just hard when I feel like she's finally in a good groove and then everything gets messed up again! But we'll figure it out.  Your advice about just getting her up for the day is so much better than banking on her staying asleep. Much more realistic.

Today has turned out pretty good for her sleep- despite early WU (6:05) she slept 8:50-10:35 and went down again at 1:45 and is 1 hr 10 mins in so far.

The 8:50 nap this morning was after a 2 hr 45 min A time, so maybe I should stick to that for a couple days and see how that, plus the 2nd A time of 3 hrs 15 mins goes...

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2015, 20:17:50 pm »
Definitely! We can but try. In any case we know that worked today so it gives us something to go on xx



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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2015, 16:11:07 pm »
Naps and nighttime yesterday were great.  She ended up napping 1:45-3:00.  BT at 6:30.  She had one wake up at 10:30 that required DH to do 1x PU/PD, and she was back asleep within 5-10 mins.  She got up at 2:00 to eat and then woke up at 5:45 (!).  How do you think I need to proceed with EW?  This morning, I waited about 15 mins, DH gave paci, she wass till awake, so I fed at 6:10 and put back down.  She eventually fell back asleep 6:40-7:10....So I counted 7:10 as her WU?  Is there a better way to deal with the EW during these A time transitions?

Now today has been a little funky.  She had that little re-sleep 6:40-7:10 so I put her down for nap and she was asleep at 9:45 (2:35 A time) and she was OUT.  But she got up after 35 mins!  She did have a poop- and I couldn't get her back down so up for the morning.  I'm thinking I'll still try to get her to 3 hrs 15 mins A time and have her down at 1:30 today...I was hoping she'd sleep longer so that I can put her down for BT later and hopefully eliminate that EW...

What do you think?

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2015, 20:01:13 pm »
Argh, just lost my reply to you! Sorry this might be brief before my ioad crashes again...The EW have only been for the last couple of days haven't they? We have to remember that first A is still quite short compared to the average but that second A is good.

Tbh we've extended quite a lot recently so it might be an idea to keep it the same for a day or two longer. During this I would try and resettle her EW just as you're doing. You're being consistent and telling her it's not time to be awake yet. I want to keep an eye on it as technically it's not an EW as it's still 11hrs ONS so with these new longer naps it just might be all she's capable of yk? If the naps continue to be a good length and the night has shorter  to 11hrs regularly we can make a new plan for that, it won't be a problem xx



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Re: 7.5 month old NW all night long- HELP- Can't do it anymore!
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2015, 20:33:59 pm »
Found this and thought of you... Thought it might help? Xx

Staying on track with LO's routine while traveling