10.5 week old short naps, no longer self settling

[josephfc]

Hello. I am having major problems with my 10, nearly 11 week olds sleep. She was a good sleeper until around 8 weeks, she'd fall asleep where she was sat and settled well at night. We were getting 8-10 hours on an evening and 2 hour naps. If she woke in the night or during naps she'd grumble a bit then go straight back to sleep. Almost over night she changed and now she absolutely screams if we try laying her down in the cot.  We have to hold her for at least five minutes before we can lay her down otherwise she starts crying  and she only naps 30 minutes at a time. She also in the last two days has started waking earlier in the night and in the morning.

I'll admit we never intentionally followed a routine, I just aimed for 2.5/3 hour feeds and) 1h to 1h15 wake time. With a preschooler in tow and school drop offs to contend with its difficult to establish a pattern. So really we're in a mess and I don't know where we went wrong.

How has a good self settler stopped falling asleep on her own? How do we get on track? And is she over tired or under tired?! My head is a shed trying to get organised and deal with no1 child (he's very demanding!)

By the way baby is textbook/spirited I think. Mostly textbook but with some clear spirited qualities.

[creations]

Hi there
I wonder have you recently tried changing where she sleeps for naps?  It seems you are saying she would fall asleep wherever she was but now screams if you try to put her in the cot?  Is this a change of sleep place?  I found my 10wk old certainly knew where he was sleeping and also had very clear ideas of where he should sleep too (I wanted him in the travel cot in the family room for naps which worked fine for 10 wks then he suddenly decided he wanted to be upstairs in his night bed for naps, took me a few days of him screaming to work that one out).

It could be that cue following and having only a rough routine worked well for the early weeks but that she needs a little more predictability and structure now. Possibly a slightly longer A time, say 1hr 20.  I would suggest if you watched the clock for a few days and record her times you may see a pattern emerge where she sleeps better (or goes down more easily) with a certain A time at certain times of the day.  With an older LO to care for at the same time and the school run to fit in you can't necessarily time everything around your youngest but it should be possible to work out a routine which fits everything in, roughly, even if it means some longer/shorter A times to work a nap in before the pick up or during the pick up or after getting back home etc.

I would also say that 5 mins is really not so long to be holding her before sleeps. Tracy said it takes LOs 20 mins to fall to sleep and for some they need a good long WD of 20 mins before they gently drift off to dream land.  if your LO is happy on 5 mins then I'd say that's a bonus really.  Mine liked a very short WD, about 3 mins of cuddle/song but he couldn't have gone to sleep without it.

[josephfc]

Right, last night it took an hour for daughter to fall asleep. But she did so without crying and laid in the cot. She had been awake for 2 hours when she nodded off and slept 8pm until 6am.

This morning I rocked her back to sleep until 730, awake for 1.5 hours, fell asleep on her own in the cot. I wasn't even in the room. She slept 50 minutes! Does this mean she needs a longer a time? Breakdown below:

A 6am
E 605am
S 650
A 725
E 815
S 905
A 955

I don't know if she woke on her own or was woken up by my mum coming in!

Any help on next steps would really be appreciated.

[josephfc]

Sorry we posted at the same time! Just dealing with the little one and will reply. Thank you!

[josephfc]

Hello. No no change to routine or place to sleep. When I can she sleeps in the basket in our room. Sometimes she sleeps in the carrier on school drop offs.

I wasn't very clear about the holding. We have a 15 minute wind down which involves singing and then some rocking and shushing. But she had to be asleep for at least five minutes before we could lay her down otherwise she'd wake up before her head even hit the mattress.

Previous to this she had been happy to lay down after rocking and wriggled a while until she went to sleep.

I had some luck today so I'm wondering if I was trying to get her to sleep too early. Unfortunately for the second nap I tried to lay her down a little earlier due to the short nap. She fussed quite a bit more and jerked around a lot which she doesn't normally do. She nodded off right on the 1.5 hr mark. She is asleep but it's restless.
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[josephfc]

Hello. So I'm really a bit baffled by our whole day and don't know what to think. She went to sleep independently for all but the last nap. The afternoon nap was 1h50m long and I had to wake her up. That was after a A time of 1h45m. But then after the evening cat nap she started to get really fussy and unsettled. I fed her thinking it was hunger but she didn't take it easily and only had a little. Then she fussed right up until bed time and wouldn't settle at all. I ended up rocking her to sleep and she nodded off at the 1h45m mark. I don't know why she was so fussy after the cat nap and why she wouldn't settle after having such a good day (and after settling on her own last night). I'm so frustrated!

Here's our day:

Awake 600
E 600
S 650-730
E 815
S 905-955
E 1100
S 1125-1215
E 130
S 200-350 (had to wake her up)
E 400
S 510-550 (in swing)
E 630
S 730

[creations]

I wasn't very clear about the holding. We have a 15 minute wind down which involves singing and then some rocking and shushing. But she had to be asleep for at least five minutes before we could lay her down otherwise she'd wake up before her head even hit the mattress.

OK, that makes sense. Sounds a bit UT there.

I know you are frustrated today, it's really hard work looking after a young baby and you have another child to care for too. But the great news is she went down independently and she took a long nap - that's at least 2 pieces of great news

It looks like 1hr 45 might be worth a shot. It's actually a bit long for her age going by the guidance times and it's significantly longer than the 1hr to 1hr 15 you said she was getting  up to yesterday, but some LOs do just need a longer A time.
Now, you can jump to 1hr 45 and just try it, or you could stick at 1hr 30 for a few days and see how things go.  The risk of increasing rapidly is she gets OT although looking at your day today it doesn't appear that this happened, it looks more like she was happier with the increase.
How about for tomorrow you plan for a 1hr 30 - 1hr 45 A time and play it a bit by ear, aiming more for the longer A time but not really forcing her to stay awake if you feel she's ready to sleep.  If you can get the first A more towards the longer end you might see a long nap there (I would let her sleep a full 2hrs if she wants it, I think she will be due E when waking then) which makes the whole day feel different.
What do you think?

[josephfc]

I think I'd agree. I get cold feet a little when it comes to letting her go a little longer but she's only taking short naps anyway so no harm!


I just have two questions. Would the first A time be the one at 6am or 730? 6am is not a get up time as far as I'm concerned (no1 would disagree!) but she takes some rocking and 30-40 minutes to get back to sleep after that wake up.

Also, I woke her during the last nap to try get the cat nap in at a decent time before the 730 bed time. Wouldn't leaving her for 2h impact on that?

I lied, 3 questions! Tomorrow is a school day so I'm fitting it all in around a 9am drop off and 12pm pick up. I have no real idea how to make that work. The school run only takes 20m Max but still she's likely to nod off in the carrier. I feel like I'm fixating too much!

Thank you for the advice by the way!!

[josephfc]

Well he day has started badly last night she woke at 250 for food and woke at 605. I tried rocking her back but it didn't work so fed at 620. Is 6am now our wake up time?! It's the third day in a row she has woken at this time and taken effort to get back to sleep. I can't handle a 6am wake up 😩

Quickly recalculating our day.

[josephfc]

Further to the above, today has been a bit of a bust. She didn't fall asleep on her own for any naps or bedtime and most were short. On a positive note we got a 2.25hr nap and all the others were 40-45m long which s an improvement on the 25/30m naps from a few days ago. We were out of the house most of the day today so it was difficult. The MIL doesn't understand that a baby can't stay awake for 3 hours and that eyes as wide as saucers doesn't mean she's 'wide awake'.

I bottled it on the first nap and put her down early and got a 45m nap so I'd say she definitely needs a longer A time. Is it true that not enough A time on the first nap can lead to early morning wake ups?

I'm very confused about waking and bedtime. For the last 4 days she has been waking at 6/605 and isn't going back to sleep at all. With a bedtime of 730 her day is way over the 11.5/12hrs. Should I be putting her to bed for 6/630 or sticking with 7/730 and waiting for the morning to get to the right time? My instinct is saying 6pm bedtime.

I've tried to spend the day looking for cues so it wasn't a total waste of time but she isn't a big yawner at all and she seems to go from OK to TIRED almost immediately.

I feel like I'm ranting slightly but I have so many questions! Here's the day:

Wake 605
E 620
S 720-805

E 900
S 950-1035

E 1135 (was really fussy at this point. Had to pick up from school at 12, fell asleep in carrier)
S 1205-225! Moved from carrier to car seat then sat in MIL house through the entire nap.

E 230
S 400-445 (fell asleep in my arms but it was very easy)

E 530 (didn't seem very hungry)
E 630
S 655 (exhausted)

I think 1h 30 is easy for getting her to sleep but 1h45 is getting longer naps. And she starts acting tired, back arching and fussing at about 1h15. Soi still don't know where to go!

I'm trying to get the hubby to read the info so he can help but he doesn't really understand it. He is completely on board though!

[creations]

Hi
I'll try to answer your questions...

Would the first A time be the one at 6am or 730? 6am is not a get up time as far as I'm concerned (no1 would disagree!) but she takes some rocking and 30-40 minutes to get back to sleep after that wake up.

WU is 7am or after. I would continue to put her back down at the 6am WU even if it takes effort. you are teaching her that it is still night time and she must sleep.

I woke her during the last nap to try get the cat nap in at a decent time before the 730 bed time. Wouldn't leaving her for 2h impact on that?

Maybe but atm you are getting short naps. I am just suggesting that if you give her a long A time and she takes a long nap she will need time to sleep, it seems a little unfair to give her a substantially longer A time and then wake her up before she is ready. If you really have to cap the nap because you need to get to school then do so, if you need to cap the last nap consider reducing A time before/following.

I'm pretty tired tonight so you would need to double check my times here but this is just a rough guide to how your day might look on 2hr naps:
WU 7.30
A 1hr 45
S 9.15 - 11.15
A 1hr 45
S 1 - 3
A 1hr 45
S 4.45 - 6.15 (here 1hr 30 nap)
A 1hr 15/45 (option of shorter A before bed)
BT 7.30/8.00 (option of later BT if she usually doesn't sleep 12hrs at night)

Is 6am now our wake up time?! It's the third day in a row she has woken at this time and taken effort to get back to sleep.

Earlier wake ups can happen when a LOs first A time is too short. As I say above, re-settle at this time and treat as a NW.

Is it true that not enough A time on the first nap can lead to early morning wake ups?

Ha ha, yes!  I am going through your posts answering as I go along
You can also see an OT EW if last A time is too long or if the whole day before was a rubbish sleep day and baby has gone to bed really OT. Looking at your LOs habit it seems more likely to me she needs longer first A.  But do make sure you don't give too long an A to BT.

As you have the school run you will need to look at your entire day and work out what suits you all best as a family taking everyone's needs into account. It might be fore instance that the first nap begins on the run and she is transferred to her cot (or left in a carrier or pushchair for the entire nap), it may be that you keep this first nap short around the school drop off or around the school pick up.  There are likely other naps you can really work on to be restorative sleeps, that means 1.5 or 2hrs long.  it may take a bit of working out and it may take a bit of winging it but as school drop off and pick up is not optional you certainly will find a way for it to work. It's really ok to have a couple of CNs and a couple of long naps - I suggest aiming to keep to the same routine every day as babies form habits making the naps easier.

[josephfc]

Hello. Injabentnjad chance to reasd this yet but thank you thank you!! I'll give all of this a try.

[josephfc]

Hello, finally got around to reading this and it all makes so much sense. Thank you so much for the support! I'll got with this and see how we get on for a few days.

[creations]

You're very welcome

Let us know how it goes.