Ten Months in, still in sleep hell!

[WendyEH]

Hello all
My little girl is ten months old. Sleep has been crazily difficult since about five/six weeks, and we're really struggling at the moment. She currently struggles to go to sleep, often wakes every twenty minutes throughout the evening, screaming, and then often wakes either every forty minutes or every hour through the night. At the moment there is also a regular two hour window of wakefulness 3-5am.

Falling asleep has always seemed to massively stress her - she was colicy and in her early months we regularly had three hour sessions to get her to go to sleep in the evening.I think she's spirited - she's very energetic and determined, also very happy and laughs a lot during the day, but screams her heart out - with massive energy-  around sleep and naps. Its hideous. She definitely has an awful upset time if she gets over-tired and I do my best not to let that happen, but I can't seem to get the wind-down right for her: she'll go very quickly from playing and seeming incredibly relaxed, to a yawn, we go straight to bed, do an abbreviated version of the ritual if she seems particularly sleepy and then we're into a melt-down OR she wakes right up again when we get to the end of the ritual, and it takes two hours of coaxing to get her to go to sleep rather than keep trying to stand holding the edge of her cot.

Our flat is badly soundproofed and there is a noisy very poorly sleeping baby above us, which probably hasn't helped her get into a pattern of sleeping for long periods. We are now using white noise which helps a bit, but I can't make it totally silent and I do sometimes see her get woken by sound.

We have also moved around quite a bit for work, which I felt so guilty about that I responded to her upset in the night by holding her for hours in the end, to the extent that she got completely addicted to being held. A month ago my partner and I started finally addressing it all by using PU/PD at night instead of me feeding her/holding her whenever she cried. Initially it seemed to be working, and we've had our very first night of her sleeping six hours in a row this week. But for the last three nights she's up ALL of the time again. She's right on the verge of walking, and I know there's a developmental leap going on, but I do also feel like I've simply loused sleep up for her from the start and I don't trust myself (or her) to be doing the right things to let us all move on... My partner and I need sleep SO badly.


This schedule isn't very stable- she can wake up at 5 and fail to go back to sleep, or if we've been up for 2 hours 3-5 she sometimes sleeps till 8/8.30 and we let her because we're desperate for ANY sleep/
EASY
Wake 7
B/Feed
Breakfast 8
Nap 9-10.30
Lunch 12
Nap 2.00-3.10
B/F
Snack 4
Dinner 5
Bath 6
Bed 7-9!

up every 20/40 mins, and then for 2h 3-5.

I'd be massively grateful for any help/advice. At end of tether.

[Kellyjs]

Hi and welcome to the boards 

You're totally right in that developmental stuff can play havoc with sleep. Walking and talking I've found to be the worst. After teething that is 

I do wonder if we balance your day a little better it might help though. 10mo is a cr@ppy time for sleep where they really start to extend their A times ready for transitioning to one nap in a few months time. There's a wide variation of that's considered normal wrt A times at this age, but one thing that is for sure is that sleepy cues become completely unrealisable which is probably why you're having such a tough time settling her.

Before I forget, the white noise is a great idea. It really has worked well for so many that have a noisy household be it siblings or external noise.

I think an extension in A time is in order, ignore those sleepy cues and try to go by the clock a little more. It might take a bit of time to get there, so some patience will be required on your part. I would also go back to the pu/pd for NW's if it worked before, however at this age you tend to use your voice a lot more. I'll post a link that'll explain it better than I can at the end.

So, how do you feel about pushing that first A out quite a bit? I'd try adding 20mins on and holding for a couple of days, the. We can look at extending again. That first A is far too short and with such a long nap in there I can guarantee she's using that nap to catch up on missed sleep from the night. It may be that she'll give you horrendous sleepy cues at her usual time of going down, maybe even get very grumpy, but a change in scenery or a snack should help with that. It will only take a day or two, then she should settle into it, then we'll have to do it again, so see where I said patience will be key?!

I also think that last A is too lomg especially if she's  not falling asleep until 9pm some nights. With moving out the first nap, and consequently the second one, that should decrease the. A time to BT anyway.

So what I'm suggesting for the next couple of days is this:

Wu 7
A 2hrs 20mims
Nap 1 9.20-10.50
A 3.5hrs
Nap 2 2.20-3.30 ish
A 3.5hrs
BT 7

This will need to be tweaked ok? This is only for the next couple of days. Do you fancy keeping me posted and we'll see how we go? That first A will need extending a lot more to balance out the day and by the time we've finished I think we'll be getting on to a 13hr day but with it better balanced for you to stop the OT NW's. Wdyt? Xx

How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

10/ 11mo sleep gone wonky? Read this first! (2-1 switch)

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[WendyEH]

Thank you so much. Its a massive relief to have some informed advice, and this is really clear. We'll definitely give it a go and let you know.
Thanks again

[Katet]

I "suffered" through a very poor sleeper in DS1 (so you have my empathy, it's not fun)  & it took until he was much older to discover he had ear problems, he didn't get the redness of  a middle ear infection, but had heaps of fluid build up & lying down made it really uncomfortable (you know how things are worse in the middle of the night) so it might be worth checking that out - mind you it was only when we saw a ENT that it was found because GP's are notoriously bad at recognising an ear full of fluid (looks much like a normal ear if there is no swelling) because they don't get enough experience.

Poor sleep with lots of night time crying to me says something more than just bad sleep habits & teething is another area that can make it hard

[Kellyjs]

Good advice as always from Kate. I should've said actually, I wonder if some teething or discomfort is at play too considering he's waking that often at night.

I do think the routine needs a massive tweak and will take time, but it couldn't hurt to rule out anything like ear problems or tummy upsets with your GP too?

Do keep me posted ok? Here to hold your hand through it. I've had to do this too, and it's not fun when they are grumpy as hell and want to go to bed and having to extend their A time xx

[WendyEH]

Thank you - interesting point about the dr. I definitely have felt like there was digestive discomfort mixed in to her night upset at some points, especially when we just started weaning. We're going to see an osteopath shortly, but I'll try and get an appointment with the dr as well.

I didn't mention that I'm still giving her a dream feed at about 10.45/11 - just in case that's relevant!!

[Kellyjs]

Have a look at this link and see if anything stands out?

Does my LO have food intolerances?

And no worries about the DF, many have stopped it now, but if it makes for an easier life for you and you're happy to continue, cool beans! Xx

[WendyEH]

Checking in.
Well its been interesting trying to implement this - not least because it shows up how much chaos is in the mix. I will check out the food intolerance stuff but I'm sure the schedule stuff is playing a major part. Its changing, and in many ways improving even with all of the unsteadiness in here. We clearly need to drag her around less?
Any other guidance as to what we should try next would be invaluable

THANK YOU

Wednesday
she woke at 6, and I didn't try to get her back down (wasn't sure what the priorities were - now I've done a bit more reading and see I need to try to hold her to all the times)

Went to put her down at 8.20 and she was resistant. At 9 a chainsaw started outside her window!
Nap 10-10.55 in her buggy in the park.
I started trying to put her down for her second nap at 2.10 and she was furiously upset (v. tired). Asleep 2.45-4.15
I started trying to put her down to bed at 7, asleep at 8.
DF 10.30
She was restless in first part of night again and woke 1.20, 3.30 and 5.30.

Thursday
Breast Fed at 5.30 and then PU/PD till 6.45
BF and up at 7
Nap 1 9.45-11
Lunch 11.15
Nap 2 2.50-3.30
Gave her supper early too 5.45
Starting sleep ritual 6.10
Asleep at 7

Restless first part of night
DF 10.30
Awake at 1 but back to sleep easily
Awake 3.30-4

Friday
Awake 5.30
BF
PU/PD till 6.45
Nap 1 9.15-10.35
Lunch 12
Nap 2 2.15-3.40
Supper 5.15
Bed time 6.20
Asleep 7

Restless first part of night but I stayed with her for 20 minutes soothing, and she then slept from 9

DF 11
Awake 1.30
Awake 3.30-4.45, BF
Sleep

Saturday
Up 7.15
Nap 1 10-10.40 (we were trying to get to the osteopath, and the only appointment was at 10.30 so this ended up being in her buggy)
Lunch 1
Nap 2 2.10-3 (buggy)
Bedtime ritual 6.10
Asleep 7

Less restless early part of night, after staying with her through two stirrings

DF at 10.20
Awake 9 (noisy baby above) 1.30, 3.00-4.30 (No early morn bf)

Sunday
Awake 6.40
Nap 1 9.20-10.35 (bed)
Nap 2 2.10-3 (buggy)
Night Ritual 6.30
Asleep 7

Less restless early eve, soothed through two jolts,
DF 10.30
Awake very briefly 1 and 3,
Awake from 4.40
PUPD

Up at 6.40

[Kellyjs]

This is actually really helpful and we're learning a lot! I need to spend some more time lookimg at this to work out a plan, just a quick note to let you know I've seen it and will be back on after my terror of a 2yo has gone to bed  xx

[Atomic1010]

(Hugs) just to let you know you aren't alone..I have an 8 month old and I've been up with him every night every 1-2 hrs since he was 4 months old and he is also going through a period where he is awake from 3-5am :-( I will be following this thread to see how you get on as it may help us. We are not sure of the reason for wakings..teething, Tunney ache, habit, wind... I just don't know and I really feel for you as it's tough.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Honey,

I just wanted to pop on with support and ((HUGS)) as you are already in super hands Props to you for getting by in this situation, sleep is never a straight forward thing with LO's but you must be exhausted, and I can only imagine how much energy you have to put into this. Holding your hand until things improve.

x.

[Kellyjs]

Ok, I'm here. I have wine, so I'm ready  .

No, I'd never recommend not going out and about. I presume that's what's holding you together atm with all these NW's? Once we get more into it, it may be that you can have one nap at home and one out and about but hopefully once we get a more stable routine in place you'll be able to plan things anyway 

Can I just ask? Does she self settle those times when she wakes briefly at night? Or when she's just restless?

For the first day. Actually I don't think this is too bad and actually what we might base things on if you done mind? I reckon the day might be a tad too long for her that day but it's not too far off. But you had no long NW's that night.

Ok wrt the first A, let's start there. We'll ignore Sunday as that short A did yield a good nap but that was after the longest NW slightly earlier. I think we should go ahead and jump straight to 3hrs 45mims first A wdyt? You're kind of doing that anyway although doing pu/pd until wu time. Thursday was 4hrs 15 first A really so I don't think it'll be too hard to handle.

I'll go back to Wednesday. What we did see is that after that shortish nap, she managed to go 3hrs 50mims A and that yielded the best nap yet didn't it? That's also what I'm basing that first A idea on too if you see what I mean? I know it was a little bit of a struggle, but actually you did close to that on Friday and also got a good afternoon nap but that was after a 1hr 20mins nap. so maybe going back to 3hrs 45mins there might work?

So now you've had to read through my stream of consciousness, sorry about that  . This is what I think might work. It will be going down the route of set naps really, but I hope with this you'll get some consistency and feel a little better wdyt? I've got a really good idea as to what she's capable of now with these logs, so we can but give it a go? It may need tweaking, actually it almost certainly will, but I think this will give us a good baseline as to where to go ok?

So wu: I'm going to average this at 6 for now it may be earlier or later, but keep with pu/pd but maybe only until 6.30am if that's ok?
A 3hrs 45mins
Nap 1 9.45- 11 hopefully
A 3hrs 45mins
Nap 2 2.45- 4? Maybe
A  2 hrs 30 mins
BT 6.30pm

I know BT is Earlier than you have been doing but I want to try that shorter last A to see if it make a difference to the restless early evening. It may not work, but try it for me? Xx

[WendyEH]

Amazing,  we will absolutely try that. I can't tell you how nice it is not to just guess what I should be doing moment to moment. Thank you.

She is slowly slowly getting better at occasionally self-soothing during the night. My partner said that last night it only took verbal encouragement when she whimpered and then she went back to sleep (I have had a few sleeps on the futon, saving my sanity). It has been the case that the evening wakes she absolutely screams and takes a lot of support and soothing to get back to sleep. But even that is getting better now that I have accepted she needs company whilst she learns how to relax and fall asleep and have taken to just staying for first twenty mins.

more soon and thank you again.
thanks all for support i really appreciate it xx

[Truly Blessed]

Fabulous work Kelly, I must get me some of that wine Wishing you lots of luck, love and patience Wendy! x.

[Kellyjs]

You know you're always welcome here V! I have a stockpile  .

How did it go today Wendy? Xx

[Truly Blessed]

You know you're always welcome here V! I have a stockpile  .

LOL on my way x.

[Kellyjs]

How's it going Wendy? Xx

[WendyEH]

Hello!
Sorry, I thought I'd go for a few days with the new shape so it could settle.

Quite an up and down week - sorry for the detail, not sure how to summarise and make sure i say the relevant thing!

Monday night
Stupid mistake leaving breast pump stuff to sterilise- it melted and fumed out the flat, setting off fire alarm and waking the little one. Up for about an hour 9.30-10.30 checking no horrible ill effects and then bless her she was up EVERY ten/twenty minutes through the night, panic screaming. (Unbelievably stupid: so cross with myself. But this is the problem with tiredness right.)

Tues
WU 7.00
Nap 1 9.45- 11.15
Nap 2 2.45-4 (on the dot!)

BT tried to get her to bed 6.15 for 6.30, but actually slept at 7 (despite being KNACKERED)

Only two early evening wakes, easily soothed.
Overnight awake 6 times, soothed with voice 3 times, with hand/voice

Wed
WU 7.00
Nap 1 9.45-11.15
Nap 2 2.45-4
BT - tried to get her to bed 6.30 but she was very restless and upset. Went to sleep at 8.20.

No wakings after that. Woke up when Dream Fed, at 10.30- woke every twenty/forty mins between then and one am.
Slept 1-5, soothed, and on till 6.30.

Thurs
WU 6.30
Nap 1 9.45-11
Nap 2 (late getting home, overtired) 3.15- 4
BT - tried from 6.20, went to sleep at 7.10
No early eve wakings so far!

Improving, despite my ridiculous fire alarm ....
Thank you. We're getting somewhere.......!
x

[Kellyjs]

Ha ha, I've so done that but with the bottles! Thought I had the microwave on at my parents place and it was a combi oven thing. Melted the entire lot, so you're not alone there!

This is looking really good routine wise. Definitely gives us something to go on. I want to keep an eye on it.. It may be that that Thursday routine might the the way forward for you in a few months  xx

[WendyEH]

Its so so much better, thank you so much. the only christmas present we needed
x

[Kellyjs]

I'm so glad, pop back if you need to  xx

[WendyEH]

ELEVEN HOURS STRAIGHT THROUGH 7-6am last night!!!!!!
AMazing. Can't believe it. THANK YOU

[Kellyjs]

Woo hoo  amazing news!! So happy for you, bet that felt good!! Xx

[WendyEH]

Hello again and happy new year. I hope you had a rest from solving everyone's sleep problems Kellyjs!!

We had five glorious nights of eleven hours straight through, and then she caught a cold, we had to relocate for Christmas, FOUR teeth came through and now its all gone a strange new shape!

Not gone back to as bad as it was, but something peculiar is happening to naps and I'd massively appreciate your advice again. I hope that's ok.

NW's are on the way down, gradually. But we now have her persistently waking up early (5am this morning), and ending up really very manic at the end of the day, and really really distressed when she wakes up from her afternoon nap )usually too earlY).

Yesterday looked like this:

WU 6.30
Nap 1 10-10.50
Nap 2 3-3.40
Absolutely crazy at supper time
Asleep by 7.10
Brief wake at 9.
Up 3am very briefly. Up 5 and stayed up.

TOday
woke 5am - I did PUPD for quarter of an hour but she was wide awake so I BF her and then tried to put her down till
6
Nap 1 9.45-11
Nap 2 3-3.45 Couldn't get her back to sleep, very cross and upset
Went for an early bedtime to try to make up for the early start- 6.30, but didn't manage to get her to sleep till 7.45

Any advice would be amazing. I've been telling strangers on trains and everyone I meet with babies about this site
x

[Kellyjs]

Hi Wendy, happy new year to you too! 

Remind me how old she is now? In either case, I definitely recommend a routine tweak as those 40mins naps are UT and I think that's getting her OT by the end of the day. Remember at this age they start to want to increase their A time pretty rapidly so I'm expecting early 2-1 transition things going on here. Have a read of this link, then we'll make a plan ok? Xx

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

[WendyEH]

She's very nearly a year old.
Yes this sounds like it is what's going on. Its a bit hit and miss about which one out of the two naps she takes well and which one gets squeezed. Or they are both short. She was up at 5.30 again this morning but I kept her up till 10 as she was doing fine. She went down nice and easily. Is it about trying to get a longer, incrementally later morning nap then, do you think? And then aiming for just the 40 mins later on?
Thanks Kelly! Can't bear the idea of it going backwards...

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply, it's my birthday and actually been busier than i thought 

t may go backwards a little during the transition unfortunately. Some apop may have to be used to get them down for a second nap here and there. It's not forever and it does get so much easier once they're on one nap.

Ok, so we do know she might be ok on nearly 5hrs A, that's really good to know. If she ever does have a later wu, i might be tempted to push for a one nap day on that day.

I found it much easier to keep with a longer first nap as I found i could never get the second A te right to guarantee a good pm nap. if these EW keep going on though we might have to revisit for you. Keep me posted ok? Let me know how it goes tomorrow and hopefully i'll have more time to write a decent reply  xx

[WendyEH]

Happy Happy Birthday!

Yesterday turned into an impromptu experiment.
DD woke up at 4 and didn't go back to sleep till 6 when I gave her what would usually be her wake up BF.
Slept 6-8.

So I decided to try one nap (also, I couldn't figure out what else to do!)
Nap  12-1.15
Asleep by 6.30

Stayed nice and calm all day and not too tricky to get to sleep BUT NW's at 7.30, 9, 10, 12.30 and then up from 2-5!!!!
So I think its clear I got her overtired even though it didn't look like it. Woke her up at 7.20 this morning so we don't have a re-run, and put her down for a nap at 10.30 even though that's less A than usual.

Seems like a choice between a long NW and a very very EM?!
Any thoughts would be ace.
Thank you

[Kellyjs]

Thank you!

I reckon that last A was too long. I would've tried to push the first A so much as I hate OT before BT which is obviously what you got  . Oh well, at least we know now! Tbh my DD couldn't handle 5hrs, we were doing more like 4.5hrs, but you were in a tricky spot as you didn't want the day to be too short.

I take it you went back to two naps today? Sometimes that's what we have to do for a while during the transition and alternate one and two nap days for a while. If that amazing wu happens again, i would try and push to at least 4.5 hrs ideally 5hrs if you can, as i'd much rather deal with any OT during the nap and not at night. She managed 4.5hrs after a short night the other night so i'm pretty confident she can do it.

There's something else we have to consider now too .. If she's coming up to 1yo, there's a developmental leap that either requires them to want more sleep or less for a little while (and start resisting). For mine is seems we  need more sleep around birthdays and lots less on half-birthday leaps! xx

[WendyEH]

Thanks Kelly. Yes, I think she's right on the verge of walking and she's also started speaking a bit, and seems very clingy and all the other signs that she's probably in a leap. Last few days we;ve settled into a 'least bad' pattern that looks like this:

WU 6.30
Nap 1 10.30- 12
Nap 2 resisted like CRAZY, and eventually happens around 5-6
Up for 2 1/2 hours
Asleep for 8.30
Then sleeps pretty well with only miniature wakes.
Doesn't look like a very sensible day to me, nor like she's getting long enough over night, but its worked last two nights...

[Kellyjs]

Actually this looks pretty good! Similar to what we were doing at this stage. It is a long day, you could look at chopping some off that last nap, even 15mins and that might bring BT a little earlier if you wanted?

If it were me though I'd leave as is for now, especially if something developmental is going on. 10hrs ONS is perfectly fine for some bubbas. We (used to) regularly get that here. As long as she's happy, I'd just go with it for now, witht he view that eventually you'll shave off from that nap and bring BT earlier, simultaneously trying to push that first nap later xx

[WendyEH]

Brilliant. Thank you so much for continued support. It makes such a massive difference to have a proper grown up to check in with!
x

[Kellyjs]

Ha ha, bless you! Me a grown up?!  I spend most of my evenings currently camped outside DD's bedroom with a pillow, ipad and glass of wine as she's going through a developmental leap atm. I feel like a big kid  . Keep in touch ok? xx