NWs (for hours) + EW + sick = APOP

[chauncycay]

I'm really hoping I'm not creating a habit or going backwards here
I truly believe that my LO is just not feeling well and that's what I need to focus on for now.
In order to do that while horribly sleep deprived (for months) I need a little reassurance or a success story!

6mo - PU/PD sleep training (dropped paci, NF and swaddle) - rough 9 days but it worked. 6 weeks of blissful 11 hr STTN
9mo - crawling - sleep haywire
and it's continued.
finally 2-1 transitioned about 6 weeks ago and she was doing much better with day - 2 x 30m naps moved to 1 x 1.5h nap (good for her!) + better night sleep.

I think we got through the 2-1 barely and then she got her first cold.  But we were not 100% with the 2-1 and she's still not been STTN more than 2 x week at that point.

She's rarely sleeping past 5:30a which makes for a loooong day with only 1 nap. Esp since her overall night sleep is ~8 hours horrible.
She's usually pretty happy during the day surprisingly.  She's lower sleep needs, but she does need 12 hours total according to the pediatrician.
She will not nap (one time only hit 2 hours) longer than 1.5 hours during the day.
Used to do 11 hours at night.

So... now:
5-6am WU (was 6:30a)
9:30a (ish - before 10a) CN capped at 20 min
12:30a set nap (1-1.10h atm)
6:45p BT (we try bt 6:30-7p)

NW:
~11-1a (usually 40min -1.5hr)
2-4a (usually this is the one that's for 2+ hours!)
5am EW

We're back and forth with cot parties for 2+ hours between 1am - 5am.

CN in the am, sometimes while nursing.  Overall not good sleep for anyone. I'm the weird BF mom that cannot no matter how hard I try get her unlatched when she's asleep! She latches harder with teeth - ouch!
It's definitely time to wean after cold and holidays.  We'll go slowly - one thing at a time.
At least she's never nursed to sleep for her set nap or nighttime or in the night with NW.
I wait until after 5:30a (usually 6am or later) to nurse her.

There's still quite a bit of snot going on so hopefully this is cold related.
Wondering if anyone has run into these crazy cot parties and EW and what got better?

I'm hoping this is a phase and letting her sleep on me after 5am isnt' creating a bad habit.
I do pd / toddler, standing in crib, offer water, no talking in the dark from her sippy or ibuprofen/acetaminophen if she's sounding super uncomfy from teething/cold. I do this until 5am when I try to make sure it's worked for at least a few mins leave the room and if she unsettles and stands back up crying I abort and take her with me to the daybed in the room and cuddle/try to get her to sleep on me to save a little of her day! Usually works. She CN for ~40 min usually.

She's just not 100% well and I want to be there to comfort her, but not after she's well.  Anyone have similar APOP while sick experience?

[creations]

Hi, sorry to see you didn't get any replies yet, and sorry to hear your Lo is poorly

I always do whatever is needed during illness.  I found with my DS and from what I've seen on various threads, once a LO is sleeping independently they are pretty easy to get back to that after a period of needing help during illness or developmental leaps etc.  I really wouldn't worry about habits or props during illness, only to be aware of what is happening and for *you* not to get into a habit, when we (parents) are very tired it can be easy to fall into a habit of always responding in the same way rather than gauging what is needed on a particular night and gauging if LO is poorly or ready to return to independence. Some LOs have their way of telling you to go away (not sure how I knew with mine but one minute he'd be screaming in my arms needing cuddles the next he'd be screaming to tell me to put him back in bed and leave him alone - his dad never knew the difference but some how I knew he needed putting down and the screaming stopped) or you can just try the odd time to do a little less and see how it goes, after all you are right there if she needs more help.

Do you have a current sleep thread about routine and short nights too?  If not then perhaps once she is better we can try to help you out with something there. 8hr nights don't sound so good even for a low sleep needs LO.  Mine never did long nights (10.5 to 11max) but once he was down to 9hrs or less I knew something had to change.
Although you haven't specifically asked about this here it might be an idea to move the set nap later to encourage a long nap, some work on extending that nap could help to extend the night or at least give some more overall sleep.

Hope she is better soon x

[chauncycay]

Thank you so much!
I had an amazing nap thread (thank you, Kelly!) for our 2-1 transition and then moved over here.
It just seems like everything blurs together and we're not reaching a good stretch
Last night I did something new that I've been hesitant to try.
She's horribly congested when she sleeps for a few hours.
The sippy cup with water helps since she starts month breathing and gets to coughing

I dared to suction her nose when she woke up last night (later at 1:45am, progress!)

Oh the screaming! ((
But after an hour, she settled and slept until 6:23am!!!!!!!
So now I am convinced, it's the sickness, the terrible snot.
We will get through it :-)
& she napped at her set nap of 12:30p for over an hour with no wake-ups or resetting needed. Progress!
Hopefully we're on the mend...
Thank you so much for the reassurance. xx

[creations]

Oh it's good you have a better night and nap.
Honestly I think from 12 - 24 months was the worst here. So so many different things, cold,s teething,developmental leaps, routine changes, there seemed to be no let up at all.  Once you get past all that, amazingly there is still an independent sleeper there!

Once she's better, if she is still only doing 8hr nights I would suggest another sleep thread. See how you go, with any luck this will all pass.

[chauncycay]

Oh yea. So we had flu boosters yesterday, simple nurse visit. We thought hey let's have ears and chest checked just to be sure...especially since we're flying for the first time with her next week. Ear infection! (( but it explains a lot. No fever, and happy all day... Odd. Lucky! :-)
So we'll get well and then fix sleep. Ugh.

[creations]

Sorry to hear about the ear infection

[Kellyjs]

Just popping in to say sorry she's still poorly hun, hope she gets better soon xx

[chauncycay]

Thank you, Ms Kelly!
So she napped for an hour and a half yesterday, no wake ups or resettling needed (excellent!).
We stopped in at our neighbors party from 5-6 & she got a little OS for the bath/bed at 6:30 so it took until 7:15o, super vocal/fussy.
But... Slept until 4:45!!!! Straight through! :-) :-) :-) ridiculous early but she's definitely feeling better and eating well and happy and giddy. So hopefully nap at 12:15 goes well, dh is going in now. She wouldn't cn on me earlier or in the car to brekkie. We had a breakfast play date so she's beat now.
It's all making sense now.
Who knew that you could have an ear infection with a happy (when awake) & no fever ever toddler?! Sleep disruption and prolonged coughing/snot are her only symptoms. I just thought her cold was taking over a month to go away.
We feel so much better now that we know and are treating with antibiotics. We're bummed she's sick and that we have to give her drugs but at least she'll get better and we made it to 13 months before she got sick.
Truly blessed and lucky.
I feel health and sleep might be around the corner. Hope!
Thank you ladies so much for the wisdom and support!
This baby to toddler stuff is HARD!

[creations]

Lovely update even though she's poorly!

[chauncycay]

We're back and well!
Still 2 nw and ew though.

Illness / Meds
She's teething, but that's it, not too bad. We give her ibuprofen before bath/bottle/bed so she's comfy going down.  I've just stopped giving her additional meds at NW, no difference, so that's not it.  I only offer her water from sippy cup and do toddler pd.  Occassionally sleep phrase if she gets fussy (doesn't seem to help, engaging her in any way is grounds for more activity!).

Food / BF
I'm weaning her fully now that she's well and we have no travel (and I need to get back to the office occasionally and out of my yoga pants...)
She did *amazing* on the plane - thanks to nursing! tee hee

I nursed her for some CN and definitely the whole time we were travelling.  Never to sleep at night or before 5am.
I'm only nursing her first thing in the am now. Pretty easy transition actually as she's been used to bottles the rest of the day and we've even transitioned her to sippy cup with cow milk now - whew!
Bottle for BT only (cow).

We're increasing her solids, she *loves* meat! Pork, chicken, cheese, and avocado. We get more veggies in with those baby food packets as "smoothies". I doubt it's hunger at night.  We're making sure to keep an eye on her intake to ensure she's full (but not overflowing - that happened once - oops!)

NW
Now that we're back to "normal" she's waking pretty much once before or around midnight (OT?) and once in the middle of the early morning ~3am, but never really the exact same time, within an hour or two.
Then pretty regularly at 5:45a (too early).

So i've done consistently toddler PD for all NW.
Once we hit the 5:45 or really anything close to 5am or after I go in and try PD once, then pick her up (as soon as she stands, not waiting for crying at this point to make her think cry = pu/cuddle).
I get her to fall back asleep on me on the daybed in her room until as close to 7am as possible.

WU 7am (goal 6:30-7am)
Set nap 12:30p (usually 1.10 - 1:40h)
BT 6:30-7p

Tactics?
Keep all the same for ~ 2 weeks and see if the NW drop and EW gets later?
Stop morning cuddles and do PD even after 5am?

The problem after 5am is she starts babbling usually then gets pretty fussy if I try PD... usually ends up in a battle for an hour and then we're at WU time
A really bad start to the day, then she's OT for nap, etc.

I'll do that if the consensus is it's the right course.  I don't want to push her though if I can get her to sleep a little longer in the am and preserve nap and BT.  But I don't want her to sleep on me forever... (very uncomfy! sweet but her giant head tends to roll around and whack me several times. ouch.)

Thank you, ladies!

[chauncycay]

... for *you* not to get into a habit, when we (parents) are very tired it can be easy to fall into a habit of always responding in the same way rather than gauging what is needed on a particular night and gauging if LO is poorly or ready to return to independence. ... you can just try the odd time to do a little less and see how it goes, after all you are right there if she needs more help.

ok, re-reading.  I think this is my next step. Trying again to do less, and do PD at that last 5am ish time.

Do you have a current sleep thread about routine and short nights too?  If not then perhaps once she is better we can try to help you out with something there. 8hr nights don't sound so good even for a low sleep needs LO.  Mine never did long nights (10.5 to 11max) but once he was down to 9hrs or less I knew something had to change.
Although you haven't specifically asked about this here it might be an idea to move the set nap later to encourage a long nap, some work on extending that nap could help to extend the night or at least give some more overall sleep.

Should I start a new schedule thread then?

Thank you again! xx, cc

[chauncycay]

oh and yesterday as a current example:

WU 7 (after apop sleeping on me from 4:45am)
12:25p Nap (1.40hr! woo hoo!)
BT 6:40p (we were a tad late, 6:30 seems to be optimal for her, she was in great spirits and went down super easy, more normal now - whew!)
NW 11:45p (10 mins, gas drops, water, pd)
NW 3:45a (10 mins, a little fussy, water offer, pushed it away, fussed then pd, sleep - wiggled a lot but went to sleep)
NW/EW 5:45a (went in and just picked her up, she was eye rubbing and mumbling standing and grabbing on to me a bunch - grabbing at my chest - common now...)

she slept on me until 6:55a - perfect.
up, diaper change, nurse.
Happy camper.

so getting better now that I look at it, but clearly a little bit of a habit forming early am and nursing is a distraction.
I pumped once on Saturday to relieve a little pressure and it seriously looks like water now.  There's no nutritional value at this point.   Just for cuddles and comfort.

I shall pause. Thank you for listening

[creations]

Hi there - great to hear your LO is all better now and the routine is looking improved too. 6.40pm to 5.40am is 11 hr night, which is great!  OK I know 2 NW but it is a big improvement on, what was it 8hr night??

My suggestion would be to move the entire day out by 30 mins or an hr (move nap and BT later by 15 mins each day for 2 or 4 days) then do PD at the 4/5am NW rather than taking her to sleep on you.  By moving nap and BT later she will already be more tired so it might actually help with the PD because honestly she is sleeping 11hrs anyway now, it is a quite a lot to expect 12.5hr night.  I mean, she *can* sleep longer because she is sleeping on you but can she do 12.5hrs on her own? I don't know.  In addition to her being more tired it also means that when you are doing PD there won't be quite so long to get through before it is officially WU time.

doing the PD for that ew/nw will likely be hard work, you have taught her it's ok to wake at this time and to be cuddled to sleep with mummy, now you want to change the rules so she will likely be pretty frustrated about that.  I'd only go there if you really are determined because otherwise it's lots of crying for her and lots of frustration and hard work for you only to back down in the end and be no further on.  Only you can decide if you want to do this or not and if you are ready.

Another option would be to shift her whole day (as above) until the 4.45/5.45 ew/nw moves to 7am this would be because BT has gone late enough for her first Wu to be 7am, you don't do PD and you don't take her to sleep with you, you just get her up.  If you go this route you need to make sure the nap and BT come late enough. She will miss 2hrs (roughly) of sleep on you so she will be tired and you must then keep her up to nap at the correct time or your day routine will turn into early nap which will turn into early BT because you will see her so tired.
This is likely an easier option IMO but it's your choice x

[chauncycay]

Awesome. Ok I think the push for nap to 1pm and by at 7:30p is easiest. Then if she will do 11 hours successfully 6:30a isn't bad. Very reasonable actually!
We're never going to get a 7am actual wake up, ha!
Any time we've put her to bed after 7p has been an ot disaster.
So nap push first our push both at the same time?

[chauncycay]

Oh and say she gets up at 5am tomorrow. Do I just get up with her and we still try to push the nap? That sounds disastrous... Since she won't make it later, do we squeeze in a cat nap around 9/10am? Max it out at 20 minutes?
The cat nap is usually a derail for us unfortunately.

[creations]

So nap push first our push both at the same time?

Both at the same time. Day 1 15 mins later, day 2 another 15 mins later, day 3 another 15 mins later, day 4 your reach 1hr total later for both nap and BT.  If at any point you feel she is *way* too tired then hold at the time you are at an additional day, but not very many days on the run.  LOs can do this relatively rapid shift, millions do it with the clock change every year.  I wouldn't take more than say 10-14 days max for the entire shift. Perhaps jot it down so you know where you are up to.
Importantly all meal times need to change too, all the additional 15 min same as nap and BT.

Oh and say she gets up at 5am tomorrow. Do I just get up with her and we still try to push the nap?

If you were going all out with PUPD then I'd say start tomorrow, might as well, but if you are doing the time shift over a period of days I would continue with the EW APOP that you have been doing. Take her just as you have been doing and let her sleep on you until the usual time.  Then move nap out from there.
You may see no difference initially but over the days as things progress we would hope to see that EW move later, so you can still AP it but it will be for less time. When it gets near to WU time you might only AP for 10 mins or 20 mins for example (then wake her up because you need to put your day time routine in place). When it becomes so short that it is pointless to begin the AP process then stop.

I hope this makes sense.  so no cat nap.

[chauncycay]

thank you!
so as anticipated she woke up at 5:05am
I didn't get this response so I went with a guess and it ended up being a combo. I'll apop tomorrow. 

LOs can do this relatively rapid shift, millions do it with the clock change every year.

I was just thinking about daylight savings.  It's in March which at this point seems not too far away and it's the perfect shift of one hour forward. I'm tempted to just suck it up until then!

But I've got to get away from her sleeping on me.
It's killing my hip/shoulder.  That giant head of hers and she's so wiggly! It can't be good sleep for her either.
Co-sleep = No sleep (for me at least).

This morning I held her in her crib standing for a bit, tried PD but she was babbling then upset. She's tired but won't do it herself at this point.
So after 30 mins I turned on the light and we let the dog out, did a diaper change and then I nursed her.  I knew she'd fall asleep if I went straight into a feed.
She still dozed off on me for a bit. So kind of the same result really. A nurse nap instead of a full on sleep on me. And no CN later.
The nurse nap can't work either since I'm weaning her. We're down to only that morning feed.

yesterday
WU 5:45a after apop ~7a
Nap 12:25p (1hr only - she slept so long the night before ~12 h)
BT 6:50p
NW 11:45p (~10min, gave water) & 1a (~10min, gave Tylenol / water)

today
WU 5:05a -- quiet in dark until 5:35a -- BF 6a -- nursed/slept on me until 7a
Nap 12:25p -- EW at 30 mins (OT - cry/stand), dh resettled her ~10 mins -- 1:50p (1.20h)
so her nap was shorter a bit and unsettled - OT

we'll shoot for 6:30 BT and tomorrow EW regular apop nap on me, slow shift start...
It makes sense.  That way we hopefully avoid the terrible way OT and get her there gradually.

[creations]

Good luck