Author Topic: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old  (Read 8119 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« on: December 12, 2015, 07:51:28 am »
*PLEASE HELP*

I have used the 4-hr EASY routine for 2 weeks (to break breast-sleep association and therewith improve night sleeping) using PU/PD and within days (naps even) we saw great improvements and we only had to use shush-pat. My LO (5.5 months) would go to sleep with only a few minutes of shush-pat (especially during the first morning nap) and nights have been as good as only 1-2 awakenings (during which I feed). I am now experiencing a MAJOR set-back .... Where the shush-pat was very effective in calming, soothing and sending him to sleep for over a week, since about 4 days he simply goes hysterical. Apart from crying (screaming), he arches his back, slings his arm around (he's on his side for the patting, but tries to get on his back, pushing against my hands). When I then try to pat him on his shoulder (front) like I also used to do sometimes, he goes even more mental. I have to say, he did do this sometimes and it seemed something we just got through in a matter of of minute or two and then he'd be asleep, but now it has worsened and just continues. It's even at BT when he used to fall asleep within a minute - it has turned into an hour of screaming! I am so desperate (have been standing next to the cot in tears a lot!) I just don't know what to do and it's so bad that I resorted to putting him to sleep in my bed on the breast (!!!!!) THE very thing I never wanted to do again. It's also getting to the point he seems frightened of his cot, as he now starts crying almost the moment I put him down, sometimes when we enter the room. How do I calm him without resorting to some form of AP? With the PU/PD I used to also pat his back and shush, should I go back to PU/PD but without that? He's still not able to fall asleep alone, he always starts gurning, then mantra crying, then serious crying, but when I then start the patting he just goes even more crazy ... What can I do??? My partner wants to let him cry it out ("everybody says it's just 3 days/nights of crying and then they just sleep"), but I definately don't want this. But I now have nothing that works anymore either (it's like hysterical crying but only with me in the room and it's breaking me!) and he's been waking lots again during the night. Please help!!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 09:42:52 am by Antie66 »

Offline weaver

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 210
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 10146
  • May your choices reflect your hopes not your fears
  • Location:
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2015, 12:31:46 pm »
Can you post your routine please so others can look and help? I suspect he might be UT, or maybe he's telling you he doesn't need so much "help". Well done for resisting CIO. There's lots of research now to show it is detrimental to babies. No one here will encourage you to use it.
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 19:46:12 pm »
Yesterday -

WU 7
E 7.10 (also fed him night before at 3.45am)
S 9.15-10.15
E 11
S 11.50-12.30*
E 3
S 3.30-4
BT 7pm
NW 9.15pm-22.05 (E)
NW 3.30am-3.50
NW 4.50am-6.00 (changed nappy and left his room at 5am and he took an hour by himself to fall asleep)

*He didn't make the transition during his am sleep, so when I went for a (long) walk he fell asleep in the buggy (but woke as soon as we got home). I then tried to put him to bed again at 2pm as he was very tired, but I didn't manage to get him down.

Today -
WU 6.50am
E 7.10 (plus carrot puree at 8am)
S 9.40-10.55
E 11
A baby group, very stimulating ..
S 1-1.45 (fell asleep in the car and I transferred him to his cot 10 min into his sleep)
S 4.30 (after 35 min PUPD / shush-pat over shoulder)
BT 7

It's not been great recently, but to be fair we have had some hectic days. Generally he gets tired bang on 2 hrs after he's woken up, if not sooner. It's more difficult to get him to nap in the afternoon and near impossible at the end of the day (it takes longer to get him to go to sleep than that he sleeps for - usually only 30 min). I'll add a few more days now that we're back in our routine, but I'm starting to feel as if we have to be home all the time - if he doesn't sleep in time and gets OT I can't get him to sleep at all anymore (even when APOP with nursing).

Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Early Waking
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2015, 06:15:42 am »
The night wasn't bad - he woke up at 10pm at which point I fed him (DF without the D). He usually falls back asleep on the boob during this feed and I put him back in his cot. He then woke at 4.45am and I nursed again, but he didn't go back to sleep. At all. I'm not sure what to do during these EW and have tried most things. Feeding him because he would seem really hungry (and it would be a long time since the last feed), changing his nappy in case the wet would be a discomfort and leaving him. When I leave him the cries usually get worse, he can't fall back asleep on his own, but then nothing I do (putting my hand on him, shushing, or singing - or shush-pat or PUPD) seems to help him fall back asleep, or just seems to make him wake up more. Any advice on how to deal with these EW? I now just stuck his mobile in his cot and I can hear him talking to 'his little friends', but obviously he would be better off being able to go back to sleep after a 5am WU (and me too!!).

Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2015, 07:59:12 am »
Eventually I took him into my bed at 6.45am and he fell asleep on the boob (after which I transferred him back into his cot) until 7.25. I am trying to break the association between boob and sleep (the very reason for starting EASY!), should I not feed him when he wakes up around 10pm or at 4am? He used to wake up around 1-2am sometimes too, but I stopped feeding him then and he hasn't woken up at that time the last nights.

Offline trimbler

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 37
  • Posts: 3029
  • Location: London, UK
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2015, 14:50:37 pm »
Hi there, so sorry not much time right now, but just for starters - I suspect he may be a little UT for his first nap, despite showing tired signs he may need a little stretch to get longer naps now. The shortish naps may be making him OT by the end of the day, certainly 3h to BT would do that after a CN :-\ That may be contributing to some of the NWs. I'd still expect at least a couple of night feeds at this age so I wouldn't stop those. With the shh pat, many LOs find the pat or the shh, or both, irritating by his age, his behaviour seems to indicate that he does. You could try just placing a gentle hand on him instead, somewhere he finds soothing, or just use your voice. Have a look at this: Can a baby be too old for sh-pat? and this How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

Will have a look at your routine some more once life has settled down a bit as it may be clearer then :-*
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 14:52:23 pm by trimbler »



Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2015, 10:01:44 am »
Hi Trimbler, let me pls update with yesterday's routine

The night before he was awake from 4.45-6.45am, I eventually took him in my bed and nursed him where he fell asleep until 7.25am.

WU 7.25
S 10.10-10.50
E 11
S 12.45-1.30 (he fell asleep in baby carrier and I transferred him into his cot)
S 1.45-1.15 (he woke up after his usual 45 min, but I nursed him and put him back to bed asleep)
E 3
E 6
BT (&E) 6.45

NW (MONF) 11.50-00.05
NW (MONF) 04.15-04.45

WU 6.50

(Next day: S 10.35)

It didn't take long to get him to fall asleep both these am naps, but I wonder whether today he'll sleep two sleep cycles or wake up after 45 min again. The night was definately better, although I'm also a bit wary of getting him used to feeding at night. As long as he falls back asleep after it's fine, but I'm not sure he really needs it and when (like the night before) it doesn't even send him to sleep, it feels like I might be enforcing a bad habit. Thanks for your advice. x

Offline trimbler

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 37
  • Posts: 3029
  • Location: London, UK
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2015, 20:31:06 pm »
Tbh I'd probably work on sleep training during the day and at BT, since you don't want to be denying him NFs when he's actually hungry. Keep a record of whether he gets straight back to sleep with the nf or not, as you have been doing, since that may help to indicate whether daytime sleep issues are affecting the nights.

Starting with that first A - I noticed that when he did 2h15mins, he napped 1h; with 2h50mins he did 1h15mins, then with 2h45mins just after a long nw in the early hours, he did 40mins, which I'd guess was OT due to that long nw, wdyt? How did he wake from those naps? Screaming/crying or chatting? Did he seem really tired or well rested afterwards? I'd be tempted to try 2h50mins again, but if he has another bad night then reduce it a bit or he'll be OT. I'm actually surprised that yesterday night went so well given that he was up 5.5h after his last nap with no CN, that's amazing! I'd have thought that would be the sort of night to aim for really, I know it's tiring doing those feeds but at his age it is quite normal.

So for that first nap, you're doing shh pat? And he's finding it easy to settle? If so, perhaps his later struggles are more routine related rather than shh pat related, wdyt?



Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2015, 06:55:24 am »
Well our NW has just increased some more ...

Wednesday (not a good day!)
WU 6.50
S 9.35-10.50
E 11.00
S 2-2.20* (after 1hr of crying)
E 2.30 (nursed to sleep)
S 2.45-3.30
S 5.25-6 (in baby carrier on walk)
BT 7.45
NW 9.25-10.30pm* (crying most of this time)
NW/E 11.45-00.15
NW/E 3.50-4.30
NW 5.50-6.00
WU 6.30

* I had a meeting at lunch time and a dinner in the evening so MIL and DH looked after LO. They struggled getting him down for his pm nap which they aimed to start at 1pm (so I nursed him when I came home to calm him down from his waking again and put him back to sleep) and they really struggled to get him back to sleep when he woke the first time at night (there was a lot of crying I was told). I was home at 11pm and he'd just gone to sleep but woke shortly after again.

Thursday (better napping, bad night again)
WU 6.30
S 8-9
S 9.15-10 (light sleep woke several times)
E 11
S 12.20-1.50
S 3.55-4.25 (in car-seat in car)
BT 7pm (didn't fall asleep nursing, took 20min after shush-pat pupd to get to sleep) asleep at 7pm

NW 8-8.19
NW/E 10.50-11.10 (nursed to sleep)
NW 00.30-00.35 (screamed awake, uncomfortable?? Picked up, big burp! Back to sleep quickly)
NW/E 2.50-3.15 (nursed to sleep)
NW 3.30-3.40
WU (EW again!!) 5.45 (distracted with music etc for a while, up at 6am)


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2015, 07:48:58 am »
To answer your questions -

If LO doesn't nap for at least 1hr15 - 1hr30 (i.e. two sleep cycles), he wakes up tired and crying. Even when he does wake up after two sleep cycles he sometimes still is moaning, but usually fine. He's always smiling at me when he wakes up after a 2hr nap, but these are very rare these days. Going by his behaviour. I consider 1 sleep cycle (any nap under an hour) too short and two sleep cycles sufficient, especially if it's 1.5 hrs (rather than 1hr15). I agree that stretching the A in the morning seems to work to get him to nap about 1hr20-1hr30 but like you say it depends on EW and number of NW whether we can stretch it (sometimes he seems exhausted after 1hr45 2hrs already) as well as what we do during that tine. If we go out with the dogs during that activity slot, it stretches it a lot, but sitting in the buggy staring at trees is very relaxing for him (compared to say sitting in his jumperoo, another favourite!). He went down for his naps on Thursday very well (having a warm sleeping bag fresh from the tumble drying certainly helped with the pm nap!!). I always have to help him to sleep, with shush-pat over my shoulder (in cot doesn't work) and often I have to pupd a couple of times before he'll go asleep when I put him down after shush-pat over shoulder. I guess I kinda combine the two methods, as to start with he's still quite wild in m arms or will start crying as soon as I put him down. But mostly he's asleep within 5-10 minutes for naps (if timed right).

I will continue sleep taining during the day and feed during NW, but my new 'rule' is there has to be at least 4 hrs between NW for me to feed him (or roundabout that), with the exception of the first night feed for which he usually wakes up by himself around 10-11pm. Does that sound ok? He does fall asleep on the boob during night feeds. I think it's when I would feed him for all NW including EW that feeding would seem 'useless' as it didn't get him back to sleep. He's not had to many NW after the 4am mark recently though, but the EW before 6am remain. Would be great if that could be stretched until 6.30am or even 7am! I am totally happy feeding him twice a night (if he falls asleep nursing), that indeed is my 'dream night' at the moment and what I'm aiming for. I don't have the (unrealistic) expectation he'll sleep through even more, but 5-6 hour stretches would be great.

He seems to do better when he wakes up for his first MONF around midnight, rather than waking up around DF time of 10-11pm (i.e. after a 5 hr stretch, rather than a 3-4 hr sleep - assuming a 7pm BT). Although he does take a full feed also at 10pm and falls back asleep. I do wonder though how much this is habitual, rather than hunger and wonder whether it's worthwhile trying to not feed him before, say 11pm (do shush-pat/pupd if he wakes before that)?

I did wonder whether he needs the CN or whether that could be a cause for NW / EW? As without APOP it is a nightmare to get him to sleep for that one (and things don't seem any better with that CN).

I think we have overcome the shush-pat aversion, by only doing it over the shoulder and as described above, combining it with pupd when he's kicking and arching his back, or when he starts crying again (or continues crying) when I lay him down. This does seem to work for him and when he's then finally quiet in his cot, I just need to 'manage' the shaking head (looking for nipple perhaps?) and flinging arms. I usually put my hand and/or his lovey against his face, as this stops the head shaking and calms him and sometimes hold his arms, which also helps). So I agree it's probably more a matter of looking at the routine now, as I feel I can calm him again.

Sorry for the long post, appreciate your thoughts!!



Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2015, 08:27:46 am »
Stretched A time to 2hrs40 this morning and he went straight to sleep at 8.25am! If only e would not wake up so early (5.45am this am) ...

Offline trimbler

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 37
  • Posts: 3029
  • Location: London, UK
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2015, 14:12:30 pm »
Well done on working out how best to get him to sleep these days, sounds like great progress :)

Definitely stretch that first A time, actually one thing I used to do was to fix that first nap, since having too little A time at the start of the day can lead to more EWs. Even if he gets OT and it all goes pear shaped and you can't resettle him, you could always try to APOP the second nap to help him to catch up - that's what I did at this age. But the advantage of fixing the time of the first nap is that it can help to stop the WU getting earlier and earlier... Oh and I also made a habit of taking each of them, actually  at this stage, out for a walk before their first nap, really helped to stretch the A time, as you've experienced, and later, in the 2-1 when we went for a UT short morning nap (don't worry about all that just yet ;) ) it helped to keep them calm and expect a nap when we arrived home. So why not go out with the dogs every day before the first nap if you can?

I 'd also say definitely keep the CN for now, don 't worry about APOPing it as it will go soon enough. They really need to be doing around 3h A time before they're ready to drop that completely. What I would say, is keep the A time after it, before BT, much shorter. You'll need to experiment a bit, but if he's waking that often in the early evening, so soon after BT, it usually indicates OT. Actually EW can also point to OT, so an earlier BT can help with both issues.  I used to get mine up from that CN and move pretty much straight into BT routine - so I'd bf, bath, into pjs, any meds and then top up bf before pd. I'd have liked to include a book but mine took such an age over their feeds that there really wasn't time without getting OT, so we just added that into the BT routine once the CN was gone.

Your nf plan sounds good to me, if he really seems hungry then of course you'll feed him regardless. How many feeds does he have in a day? Can't really comment on df vs midnight feeds, I always preferred the df and then I could go to bed ;)

Hope that helps at all?



Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2015, 16:46:19 pm »
Although the first nap started good - to sleep with minimal efforts at 8.25am, he woke after 45min :( could this been caused by being OT for this nap? As I'm really wanting the first nap to b the good one (as we sometimes have to go out in the afternoon like today), I nursed him back to sleep ... Oops again! He again woke after 10min, but then I eventually managed to get him back to sleep in his cot. Afternoon was rubbish, as he had to nap in the car and we weren't going very far ... I guess I'll try for an early BT as we are also going out tonight and don't want the baby sitter to have him waking up!!!

WU 5.45 (up at 6am)
E 7
S 8.25-9.15
S 9.50-11.15
E 11.30
S 1.35-2
S 3.25-4
E 5pm
... BT 6pm (?)

We follow the 4-hr feeding routine with feeds roughly at 7, 11, 3 and then we do an extra feed around (usually after he wakes from his catnap or at the start of bt routine) 5-6 pm plus a feed before bed as last thing of the bt routine (and he usually falls asleep). So 5 daytime feeds. In addition, there will sometimes be some APOP to extend naps (nursing back to sleep), like today. So one would think enough food to get him through ...

So will I try to stretch A time in the morning until about 2hr 45 after WU time? Would I be better to use APOP if he wakes up early (after 45min) from this nap or do you advice to use pupd / shush-pat to get him back to sleep for this first nap? And what time do you recommend after the CN? Our routine does incluse a bath, so usually takes about 20 minutes and then feeding after that. Is it better to put him to bed early (eg 6pm) than to have too lng of an A time after catnap? I'm afraid he'll wake up even earlier in the morning!!!

Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: My LO is growing a shush-pat aversion - how do I continue?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2015, 16:50:36 pm »
I guess I'm wondering what to do if there is no CN or if CN is very early (which it has been because he's been waking up so early that both naps are usually shifted forward as well and he probably gets OT end of the day).  I'll take him out in the baby carrier now, to see if we can get another 20 min nap in otherwise I think I pretty much have to put him to bed at 5.30pm!!

Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
(TOO) many NW
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2015, 06:18:35 am »
I was very hopeful last night, but pretty dsperate with exhaustion this morning. I don't know where it's going wrong, but I feel the nights are just getting worse. I'm also not convinced about the night feeds, as I do feel he wakes up more frequently as well as habitually - should he not just learn to feed more during the day (surely he has enough opportunity). After reading your reply yesterday, I decided to take him out for a walk in the carrier for his CN (dogs are loving APOP!). So after waking up at 4pm, he then had a CN from 5.10-6pm and as you suggested I kept A time short and he was asleep by 7.30pm. He went down relatively easy and did show his tired signs (so def not UT), so I thought I'd be in for a good night ...

NW/E 10.50-11
NW 00.10-00.20
NW/E 2.15-2.30 (left side only, think lo just wanted comfort, fell asleep)
NW/E 3.50-4.30 (fell asleep at 4am, but woke after 5 min)
WU 5.45

I tried stalling him with music and lights on the ceiling (fancy baby monitor features), but he would mostly lie there moaning and then it became more like crying (he's never very good at kying in his cot awake, as I always take him out once he starts the crying). I took him into my bed at 6.20 and on the boob and he eventually slept (with a bit of waking) until 7.40am. To me this means he does actually need that extra sleep, as it was one of the first times he was then just lying in bed 'chatting' to himself and big nutbrown hare  :)

Any suggestions??
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 08:35:23 am by Antie66 »