PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old

[trimbler]

Hmmm yes I'd definitely say early BT is better, can actually lead to a better and longer night, I don't understand why but EW is pretty typical of OT. I'm wondering whether you may need to start sleep training at night in earnest I think you said elsewhere that you've tried Pantley's method already - do you feel ready to start trying that again? Or try shh pat etc as you successfully do in the day? How does he go to sleep at BT? That would be the first place to start if he's not going to sleep independently, but I think you said he is? Sorry, you do such great, detailed posts but then I get lost looking back through them all

The other possible issue is discomfort - another reason why LOs may wake frequently at night. Do you think there could be teething or digestive issues going on, for example? Temperature changes? Developmental leaps?

With the feeding - yes, his intake looks pretty normal to me, but then that includes the night feeds. Some LOs might manage the same number of daytime feeds but only one nf, but others will still need the two night feeds at this age. I know of some mums who'll decide not to feed earlier than the first feed of the previous night (presumably in hours since BT feed, if BT varies), so if one night they go 3h, then not feed earlier than 3h the next night. If you decide to fix a df before you go to bed then you might want to set a time after that, before which you won't feed. Some find they have success stretching the gap between feeds that way, and in the meantime LO learns how to resettle by other means for the other NWs. Wdyt?

I'm afraid I'm away for Christmas from Monday but not sure if I'll manage to get on here tomorrow with all the packing to do...I've let the other mods know to pop on in my absence so you won't be abandoned Oh and I kept meaning to say, your DS is such a cutie

[Antie66]

I hope you have a lovely Christmas holiday!

I have to start sleep training again, both day and night, in earnest. He will only be soothed by my nipple in his mouth and is waking ALL the time. We are on 45 min naps, EW and MANY NW. I tried pupd, but he just seems so much more hysterical then when we tried it first 3 weeks ago. I know I make it worse by trying it and then giving in and putting him on the boob, but I am just less convinced now (after hysterical screaming for nearly an hour). Not only is the shush-pat in the cot no longer working (that stopped working after about 2 weeks), I now can't get him to stop crying (screaming in fact) whatever I do (pupd or shush-pat over shoulder). I'm a bit at my wits end, because I want to be consistent and make this work, but it's at the point where it feels like I'm simply letting him cry it out, but in my arms. I'm definately not having any soothing effect on him whatsoever.

To answer your questions:

I did try the Pantley method to start with, but I felt it was only effective to a point. I could pull my nipple out earlier after a few days, but I could still only put him in his bed asleep (ie after he'd fallen vast asleep in my arms), even after doing it for 3 weeks. Whenever I pulled my nipple out while he was still awake-ish, even if he would then not fuss, he would start crying as soon as I put him down. I know it's a gentler and slower method, but I couldn't wait 6 weeks or longer for (potential) results so moved onto pu/pd - which when we first started it 3 weeks ago worked super well, but now seems to have completely lost its magic.

At BT he gets breast at end of the routine and falls asleep, goes to bed sleeping (back when we were doing pupd only for a few days, he would actually go down awake and would fall asleep with shush-pat, but it feels those days are long gone ....)

Physical discomfort - I always find it hard to tell. There may be some, but certainly not all the time and I know that is not the real problem.

Feeding - I'd be thrilled if I was only feeding twice a night! I go to bed around 8pm every night, because I am exhausted. There hasn't been such a thing as a dream feed for ages, as he automatically wakes anywhere between 9-11pm (getting earlier and earlier these days).

If any other moderators have suggestions they are much appreciated!! I feel every day we are slipping further and further, but the soothing methods that worked in the past just have the opposite effect. It can easily take 1-2 hours to settle him during the night and he then wakes again very quickly. The only reason I'm still sane is that my DH is on holidays and I could have a couple of hours of extra sleep this am.

[Antie66]

I'm trying hard to get back into a routine that works and will keep posting the days here. Sunday night was a nightmare, with very little sleep. Eventually I took him in my bed, on the boob and there were still many NW, but then a good sleep after 7am.

Monday
E 4-7
WU 8.30
E 10
S11.30-12.40
E 3.35 (nursed to sleep)
S 3.45-4.30
S 5-5.15 (in baby carrier)
E 6.30
BT 7 (after 30min sp / pupd)
NW 9.50-10 (nursed back to sleep)
NW 1-2.30 (sp - pupd did not work, eventually took into bed and nursed to sleep)
FMON 2.20-2.30
NW / E 6
WU 7.15

Tuesday
WU 7.15
E 7.30
S 10.15 (after 15 min of shush-pat / pupd, bit OT?) - 10.50
E 10.50-11.10 (tried to nurse back to sleep didn't work)
Tried to extend until 11.40 - crying and screaming ... I give up (in tears myself .. Why won't he just sleep?!?!?!?!?!)
S 1.30-2 (took 20min to get him to sleep)
S 2.15-3 (took 15min shush-pat / pupd to get him back to sleep)
E 3-3.15 (lying down in the dark)
S 3.15-3.30
E 5.30
BT 6.30 (nursed to sleep)

NW 9 (nursed)
NW 10 - took into bed with me, as couldn't face hours of crying again. He woke again around 1am and then at 3am and just about hourl after that. Put him on the breast each time.

[Antie66]

I'm still here looking for some advice please. My LO is 6 months old next week and EBF. We started solids and he gets 1-2 'meals' a day. I feel we have massively regressed with sleep training (although he has never slept without waking at least twice at night) and I'm wondering how to best get back on track. I have more energy, as my partner has another week off, so can take on early morning shifts. I think my DS is still totally using the boob as a sleep prop, but now has also using the shush-pat (which I do holding him over shoulder) as a prop. There is no lying him down drowsy, as there is immediate screaming (which usually stops or turns into just sobbing when picked up). We are dealing with just about everything: 45 min naps (which I extend by nursing him, but as of tomorrow I'll replace that with shush-pat), many NW (5-6 times) and EW. The only thing that does go well, is getting him to sleep for his am and pm nap without having to nurse, although I have to do shush-pat until asleep on my shoulder. CN only possible with APOP (baby carrier! Never in bed) Please help! Today for example looked like this:

In my bed from about 2am (after about 3 NW already) and many wakings and feeding between 3-6am
WU (getting up) 6.45
E 6.50-7.00 (not very hungry of course)
E 8.30 (solids & nursed afterwards)
S 9.25 (started wind down process at 9.10)
Wake up at 10, nurse back to sleep
S 10.10-10.55
E 12.45
E 1.15 (solids)
S 2-2.45
S 3-3.40 (in car)
E 4
E 6.30
BT 7 (started routine at 6.15)

NW 9
DF 11-11.20
NW 11.35-11.45
NW 01-01.20
NW 01.40-2.10
NW +E 03.20-03.45
WU 5.30-6.05 (left in cot, LO was whining, crying a little, quiet or dozing in between)
Get up at 6.05

(Today S 8.30)

I try to keep first activity time around 2.5 hrs (which already seems a struggle) and the second one between 2.5 and 3 hrs winding down a good amount of time and having naptime routine. No matter what I do he doesn't seem to fall back asleep by himself or manage his transitions. Wants nursing, but I know that just makes it worse. What can I do??? Also, do you count A from his waking up, or proper getting up time? Last question - i reall want LO to disassociate boob from sleep (and also be consistent in this myself). But I do feel he still needs 1-2 night feeds (best night we ever had was BT 7.30. NW/E midnight, WU 6). He wakes up a lot, but don't want to feed him then as that would be reinforcing / rewarding the NW. Do I feed him at set times (eg 11 and 3am) and wake him up for this? What's the best approach?

Does the "how do i address habitual wakings" info post also works when LO wakes up from sleep / after 45 min nap because of prop dependency (nursing or patting to sleep), or does that need to be addressed first?

[creations]

Hey there Antie - Trimbler is not available (I forgot!) so I'll see what I can do

OK. I've had a quick read through, it never sinks in quite so well when I read over a post as when I have followed throughout but here's what I suggest, set a first nap time and stick with it, increase A time and use W2S (the FAQ you mentioned, I'll link it).  When LO is very tired he will sleep, I personally don't believe we are seeing OT in the naps and even if we saw a bit of OT in the naps I also don't believe it's too much of a problem, OT helps LO get onto a routine, Tracy had LOs stay awake a long time to get them on routine whether they got OT or not. The thing is here we tend to go slower, also with my own DS I went slower, like treading on egg-shells with those A times but the result was impossible UT naps, nap refusal, short naps, disturbed nights.  The description you gave of your LO thrashing and arching at nap time after a period of time when he had been going down well, that to me means one of two things he is either screaming "put me down I am exhausted and you keep patting me instead of letting me sleep" or he is screaming "get me out of here no way am I ready to sleep!"  yes they are polar opposites but you try one the try the other, and see what works (the former you say some thing like "seems you don't want me to hold you, let me put you down so you can get to sleep" if he goes quiet and seems to prefer being in his cot then that's the answer. If not then pick him up and leave the room, see if he calms down when you take him somewhere else.  UT can look like cot fear at times.

So, looks like WU is between 6 and 7am let's spilt the difference give a 3hr A and set first nap at 9.30am for now. What do you think?  Your aim would be something like this:
WU 6/7
A 3hr
S 9.30 - 11
A 3hr
S 2 - 3.30
A 2.5 (I'd leave last A shorter to make sure he is not OT for BT, often UT LOs will still accept early BT, but he'll sure let you know if he isn't ready!)
BT 6pm
NF any time after 10pm
second NF 3-4hrs from first

Begin W2S on nap 1, if you have the energy do both naps but I suggest you don't switch from nap 1 one day to nap 2 another, LOs make habits so it is more successful to work on the same nap each day.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Look at naps option 1.  I agree with Trimbler some LOs are bothered by shush/pat but it seemed not so long ago your LO was ok with shush/pat or a kind of adapted version you were using the the crib.  It's ok to gently rock, place a firm hand, stroke, rub back, whatever, the idea is to keep him asleep and help him transition before he fully wakes (and it avoids nursing back to sleep).

Now you can either grit your teeth and plough through on those times regardless of short naps or you can alter the day to accommodate the short naps - either is fine and totally up to you.
If you adapt your day it may look more like this:
WU 6/7
A 3hr
S 9.30 - 10.15
A 3hr
S 1.15 - 2.00
A 2hr 45
S 4.45 - 5.30
A 2hr
BT 7.30
This is not set in stone it's just an example.   This shows first couple of A times good and long to see if he will be more willing to sleep and to be helped to transition during nap 1 and 2.  The A times then decrease to take into account very short naps and to try to avoid too much OT by BT.

WRT NW, I would accept 2 feeds.  I know you must be exhausted but taking him to your bed may add some additional difficulties. I only took mine into my bed during the absolute worst teething and illness and even then he didn't stay the night, I just settled him down and took him back to his own bed. When we went through a very very difficult transition I got in bed with him rather than take him to mine.  Are you able to set up a mattress on his bedroom floor for you to camp out a few nights?  I know it's not an attractive thought but it does mean he learns he has to stay in his own room.

If you are determined to drop the feed to sleep prop you can also grit your teeth and refuse to feed outside of the routine times, he will eventually drop the prop, I'm not saying it will be comfortable though. I have never been a fan of cold turkey anything to be honest but having read your experience of the gentle wean I am not convinced this is the right way forward for you.
How about keep the prop for a few days just to see what happens on the naps with the longer A and W2S as the prop might suddenly disappear anyway?  then reassess and decide exactly what you want to do before you get going on it?

Hope this helps some. Sorry if I have contradicted Trimbler and confused you with different ideas, we all have a different take on things, sometimes that's helpful and sometimes not so. Also sorry if I've given you too many things to think about, with short naps and many NWs, plus props there's quite a lot to cover.  Take your time to have a think.
Remember this is your baby and you decide how to proceed x

[Antie66]

Hi Creations - thank you for your thorough reply! Certainly some food for thought and somethings to try, which is very helpful. I have a few questions, but first let me update. Sunday decided things definately had to change, so as of Sunday night I decided no more nursing when he wakes and no more in my bed. As you could see in my previous post, Sunday night there were 5 NW plus a DF (which I woke him for, so that he wouldn't get 'rewarded' for waking. Yesterday (Monday) as follows:

WU 6.05 (but awake-ish in cot since 5.30?)
E 6.39
E 8 (solids)
S 8.30-9.45 (didn't wake after 45min!) (A 2hrs30)
E 10
E 11.30 (solids and milk after)
S 12.30-1 (A 2hrs45 -OT?)
1 hour of calming him trying to get him back asleep (!)
S 2-2.35
E 2.45-3
S 5.15-6 (in pram) (A 2hrs15)
E 6.30
BT (plus BF top-up) 7.35 (A 1hr35)

NW 10.35-10.50
DF 11.35-00.00
NW 01.35-01.45
NW 02.00-02.05
NW 02.55-03.15
NW + E 04.35-5.00
WU 6.45

Today (Tuesday):
WU 6.45
E 6.45-7
S 9.05-9.50 (A 2hrs20)
Settled him back to sleep in about 20min, but he then woke from some noise after 10 min
Up at 10.15
E 11
S 11.35-12.05
E 2 (solids and milk)
S 2.55- 3.25 (A2hrs55) (OT?)
...

We actually have a bed in the nursery, so it would be easy for me to slep there, but it wasn't necessary at all. The past 2 nights / days, I have not nursed him before any of the naps and not even BT (he does get top-up, but then does not fall asleep and we do shush-pat over shoulder until he's asleep) and he's not been in my bed. So I guess that's progress, although it doesn't result in better naps or nights yet :-(

My questions about your plan are:
- i take your point, but is 3hrs activity not too much for 6 mo old (he only turns 6 months this week)? He seems to struggle with 2.5 in the am already and is very hard to keep him awake - major rubbing his eyes, his face, grumpy etc. (or is this from is bad nights and is it a catch 22??)
- Even if he has a good sleep and manages a transition, at the moment this means he still only sleeps for 1 hour and 15 (sometimes 20) minutes at a time, not 1.5 hrs (let alone longer), therewith adding another 30 minutes of A at the end of the day. How to deal with this? Would I try to extend beyond the 1 hr 15 min (atm if he sleeps for this duration he does wake up happy) with w2s too, (would I expect him to sleep longer than this with 3hr A times?) or leave it?
- no CN?
- waking LO up for DF hasn't decreased number of NW. Would I be better just to feed him during one of his NW, but say as a 'rule' that I wait with the first NW until after 11pm (for example) and then with the 2nd feed 4hrs after that? What about reading Tracy wrote not to feed after 11pm and not to feed in early morning as it would become habitual waking?

I'm totally ready to grit my teeth - feel this is what I've been doing for the last 3 months if not longer ... Two feeds during the night sounds like an absolute dream to me!!

[trimbler]

Hey there, so sorry to have left you hanging, and thanks creations for popping on, here's hoping you'll stay around even though I'm back as I'm sure you'll have lots of good ideas

Well done on weaning from feeding to sleep for naps and BT Yes it must be so frustrating that you haven't noticed a difference in nap length or NWs yet but hang on in there I did wonder what you're doing when you say you do shush pat over your shoulder until he's asleep - does that mean that you put him down asleep? If so you'll probably need to move on to doing shush pat in the cot ie lying him down awake so he gets used to falling asleep in his cot - which is where he'll be when he stirs/wakes in the night or in the middle of his nap, so that's where he needs to learn to settle/resettle himself ultimately.

I agree with creations that A times should probably be increased, although having said that neither of mine were doing 3h at 6mo, they both had/have shorter A times. But going by the nap length after 2.5h and how he wakes from it, I'd say you do really need to push that first A time to start with. I also liked to fix the time of the first nap, and also the time I got them up in the morning, provided they're happy enough to chat/play/fuss (without being too upset) in the cot beforehand, with or without soothing. So if 3h really seems too much for now, then how about 2h45 or even 2h40? So get him up at 6:30am, say, and aim for first nap at 9:10/9:15. You may need to work hard to keep him calm if he has a tendency to get upset when tired - with both of mine, we just made it a routine to go out just before the nap - happened naturally with DD as we had the school run! But maybe you can think of something that would work better for your DS to give him just enough stimulation not to fall asleep but keep him calm enough to still be sleepy.

I'd say the 1h15 nap sounds UT so no point trying to extend, but if you do get UT naps or otherwise short  I personally found the CN really useful for adding that extra A time into the day (I think that's what you mean by the extra 30mins?) and preventing lots of OT before BT. Both mine were late to drop the CN as they needed shorter than average A times. DD especially would have horrible nights when OT, perhaps DS did too but I think I've blotted that out from my memory

Can I ask what happens when you try the df? Does he wake completely? My DS had an amazing ability to hardly stir at all when I picked him up, but DD would wake up more and I think if she'd woken up much more than she did, I 'd have had to decide against the df. I would avoid it after 11pm, if you're trying to feed him in his sleep, without disturbing him too much. But if you decide to just feed him when he's hungry and wakes for it, then you could well do something like what you suggested. Just bear in mind there's a GS around 6mo...

Hope you can see a way forwards between both of our sets of ideas, as creations says he's your baby and you know him best

[Antie66]

It's not even 9pm and he has already woken once. The shush-pat over the shoulder works as a replacement for nursing but is becoming a prop in itself. He goes down pretty much asleep, or at least very near it, or he just screams. I recognise this being a problem, but as long as he's in his crib nothing that I do soothes him (his new thing is to kick his bum of the mattress). I tried stroking, singing, patting, holding, you name it. Nothing really calms him. The only thing that sometimes works is literally pinning his arms down. He then screams and turns his head and if I placed his lovey correctly the feel of it against his face calms him - but this scenario goes from raging screaming to complete silence / asleep and has nothing to do with self soothing. The lovey doesn't manage to help him fall asleep on his own.

DF - before I would just feed him when he woke up and he's eventually fall back asleep on the boob. The last two nights I picked him up when he was sleeping, but then he pretty much wakes up, feeds and it can take 10-20 min to get him to fall asleep on the boob (he sucks differently for drinking and comfort, so i can tell) - I try pantley's gentle removal plan and it isn't until i can take the nipple out without him waking up that I can put him back in his bed. Otherwise he'll wake fully instantly and start crying (i can then choose between nursing longer or picking him up to do shush-pat over shoukder, leaving him in cot the crying just escalates).

One more question - how do I know whether he can take 3hrs or 2hrs 40-45? He already seems tired after 2 hrs in the morning. What are OT signs in terms of (not) sleeping? The eye rubbing, yawning, loosing concentration, whining, rubbing face into me, etc already starts much, much earlier ...

He just seems a very light sleeper at the moment, which is why I'm a bit worried about w2s - i think just opening the door will already wake him. Ok, I'm going to try all your suggestions tomorrow and up A to at least 2hrs 45 and battle through. Will update regularly (this forum is keeping me sane!) Thanks for all your help!!

[creations]

Well done on dropping the feed to sleep prop!!! xxx

What about reading Tracy wrote not to feed after 11pm and not to feed in early morning as it would become habitual waking?

Without going to read the books again I would say from memory that Tracy's rule of not feeding after 11pm is for the DF, it doesn't mean you can't feed baby a NF.  It is also important to take into account more modern research on BF and NFs which Tracy was unable to take into account. We all generally believe here Tracy would have modified her books based on new research so we do not follow the books by the letter but do continue to follow the BW ethos.
Mine always woke for the DF from very young, no way he would take milk whilst sleeping.  I just continued with the NF at that time because it was a more suitable time for me, I got the longer sleep after the 'DF' rather than me being woken to feed him.  I never had a problem with this and just weaned it when I thought he was ready, very easy.

The shush-pat over the shoulder works as a replacement for nursing but is becoming a prop in itself. He goes down pretty much asleep, or at least very near it, or he just screams.

Easier said than done but the momentum of moving forward is for you to lead. Each step will annoy him but the idea is to keep moving forward whilst continuing to comfort him. So very sleepy over your shoulder then into cot and continue with shush/pat for as long as he needs, even pick up again if he is hugely upset, fully sooth in arms and put down again shush/patting. You can shush/pat all the way to sleep in the cot initially (and all the way to deep sleep 20 mins later), don't expect him to self sooth right away...one step at a time...but keep moving forward so that he doesn't get too used to any of the steps.

To answer an earlier question, on 3hr A times and good nap lengths there would be no time or need for a CN so it would drop.  If A times or naps are shorter there is still need for a CN.  You might have some days with a CN and other days without. You might even need to hold on to the CN for a while and allow BT to move later.  It's all very individual.  Mine had his CN as nap 2 to fit with our daily routine requirements, I'm just saying that to show you that every LO can have a different routine based on need and it's fine.

[Antie66]

Today (Tuesday):
WU 6.45
E 6.45-7
S 9.05-9.50 (A 2hrs20)
Settled him back to sleep in about 20min, but he then woke from some noise after 10 min
Up at 10.15
E 11
S 11.35-12.05
E 2 (solids and milk)
S 2.55- 3.25 (A2hrs55) (OT?)
...

BT 6.40
NW 8.30-8.40
NW 9.35-9.45 (settled in cot)
NW/ E 10.20-10.40
NW 01.40 (I went in at 2am and settled in cot within a couple of min, but he kept stirring in his sleep. I left the room at 2.35 and he stayed asleep, though seemed like disturbed sleep)
NW / E 3.50-4.10
NW 5.20 By now I was shattered and knowing I wanted a 3 hrs A time this morning needed him to sleep preferably until 7am, so took him into bed and on the boob  ...
WU 7 am (!)

So quite a rubbish night, BUT I managed to settle him in his cot a few times, so I feel great success, even though I hardly got any sleep (I didn't even write that DH woke me at 11.30 to help him evacuate our summer house of which the roof had blown off ...).

[Antie66]

Then today (I'm feeling excited and hopeful) ...

Wednesday
WU 7am
E 7 - 7.10
E 9 (prunes and milk top up)
S 10.10 - 11.40 ....  SOOOO HAPPY!!! (A 3 hrs 10)
E 12
E 2.15
S 2.43 - 3.40 (A 3 hrs) (get up and out at 4.05)
E 4.30
E 6.00
BT 7

Both naps he fell asleep in his cot (!! I held his one arm/hand, made sure his comfort blankie was touching his face and mouth and I did shush-pat on his shoulder, as he sleeps on his back). He fell asleep within 5 minutes (second nap he was definately more fussy and I did pick him up a couple of times, but still didn't take too long).

During the first nap, I went in after 30 min to do w2s, but he never so much as stirred (only slightly the moment I came in), so I just sat there and did nothing for 20min. Yay!!!  Second nap less success. I went in after 30min and after exactly 45 min he woke with a jolt, immediately rubbing him eyes, squirming and crying. I was there to shush and pat and lo and behold, as quickly as he had woken, he fell back asleep. Yay! I continued patting and after a couple of minutes there was another jolt that I 'caught'. I left the room at 3.40, but then at 3.45 he woke crying again. I tried getting him back to sleep, first in the cot, then over shoulder, then nursing, but no success, so got him up and out the room at 4.05.

So ... I guess I left too soon. Should I sit and wait (only shush-pat if/when needed), or continue the shush-pat for a good 15-20 min (see also first question below)?

BT - I started routine at 6pm and tried to put him down in his cot (awake) probably at 6.30, after his bath and feed. He was quite fussy (more so than during either nap) and I dare say he was perhaps ever so slightly UT - he wasn't fussy in a rubbing his eyes and upset way, he was just fussy in an awake, looking around and not quite wanting sleep rather than not quite being able to get to sleep - way. After patting and shushing and picking him up and getting nowhere for about 15 minutes, I just left him with his lovey and kept an eye on the baby monitor (with video!). He was just playing a bit, self-soothing, and when he finally started to cry, I went in, did the shush-pat in his cot while holding his hand and he was asleep in 1 minute!!! Yay!!!  I am now very curious how the night will go. Will modify to update this post tomorrow morning ...

Just three questions:
- with this w2s method (nap option 1), do you start shush-pat when you see LO stir / wake up (this is what I did today and so ended up not touching him at all in the morning as he never stirred), or is the idea you would start shush-pat while he is still in deep sleep and continue through the transition (which would seem to me risking waking him up in the first place by the intervention)?
- nap duration on a good nap has been 1 hr 20, which should really increase to 1 hr 30 (at least). If this doesn't happen automatically with the increaesed A times (although it did this morning!), could I use w2s as well to extend that bit longer? What time would I go in?
- where do the E times fit in with this routine, as I find it a bit awkward fitting it all in there. He gets offered solids for breakfast and lunch (during first and second A times) and although he gets water afterwards, he also needs a BF top-up after as he doesn't take much water (to avoid constipation). I have been nursing before naps (about 30min before sleep,mso not nursing to sleep), as I don't want to risk him waking up from hunger, but also want tomavoid snacking. If we take a 7am wake up time, how would the day look ideally including E?

[creations]

So ... I guess I left too soon. Should I sit and wait (only shush-pat if/when needed), or continue the shush-pat for a good 15-20 min (see also first question below)?

I think it could well have been more succcessful if you had stayed, yes. Tracy's method is to shush/pat for 20 mins into deep sleep. IME with my own DS I did not always need to do 20 mins and this would likely have disturbed him had I not adapted to his need. Really it is something you get to know through experience of doing it and seeing how LO responds and what works...and then keep changing to try to keep up with their ever changing needs!

He was just playing a bit, self-soothing, and when he finally started to cry, I went in, did the shush-pat in his cot while holding his hand and he was asleep in 1 minute!!! Yay!!!

Yay!!

- with this w2s method (nap option 1), do you start shush-pat when you see LO stir / wake up (this is what I did today and so ended up not touching him at all in the morning as he never stirred), or is the idea you would start shush-pat while he is still in deep sleep and continue through the transition (which would seem to me risking waking him up in the first place by the intervention)?

The idea is that you just start the shush/pat anyway.  But if you don't need to then honestly, just don't, I know you are somewhat fearful of disturbing him with W2S which is understandable, I would continue what you are doing, being there ready rather than listening only on the monitor because by the time he cries out for you it is so much harder to resettle. you did a great job of W2S and catching a jolt.

- nap duration on a good nap has been 1 hr 20, which should really increase to 1 hr 30 (at least). If this doesn't happen automatically with the increaesed A times (although it did this morning!), could I use w2s as well to extend that bit longer? What time would I go in?

Yes. Use it as much as you like but don't let it become a prop which binds you to the bedroom all day every day. 3 days on and 1 off.  For the 1hr 20 WU I would likely go in at 1hr 10.  FWIW my greatest achievement with W2S was during our drop from 2 naps to 1, I went in every 19 mins and left at 21 min.  My DS was OT waking every 20 min throughout his nap and if I crawled in at 19 min, put a hand over him ready to lay on him at 20, I could leave the room at 21!!  I then had 18 mins of Y time (oh yeah count those mintues) before running up up the stairs, dropping to my knees and crawling in at 19 mins again!! ha!  He got his 2hr sleep

where do the E times fit in with this routine, as I find it a bit awkward fitting it all in there. He gets offered solids for breakfast and lunch (during first and second A times) and although he gets water afterwards, he also needs a BF top-up after as he doesn't take much water (to avoid constipation). I have been nursing before naps (about 30min before sleep,mso not nursing to sleep), as I don't want to risk him waking up from hunger, but also want tomavoid snacking. If we take a 7am wake up time, how would the day look ideally including E?

Can't show an exact day because it depends on nap length, looks like you are on 4-5hr milk E so somethign like...
WU 7
E 7 milk
E 8 breakfast
A 3hr
S 10 - 11.30
E 11.30/12 milk
E 1 lunch
A 3hr (let's just say it's 3hr but it might be shorter)
S 2.30 - 4.00
E 4 milk
E 4.30/5 dinner
A 3hr
E 6.30
BT 7
This is a very rough guide, there is no need to give solids 3 times per day if your LO is not ready for them and obviously if you want to top up with BF at the end of solids meals that's fine too.
It really IS hard to fit everything in at this age. Don't worry about snacking, snacking is really something to look at for younger LOs who might not be taking a full feed and getting hind milk or causing problems with digestion etc. At this age it really isn't an issue - I had a thread at this age about snacking as my DS ate so often between milk, solids and milk top up.

[trimbler]

Yippee great news on that nap and success with extending A times and w2s (but hugs for that horrible night before )

As I understand it, w2s is more about helping them not to wake up during the transition, so starting the process before they actually stir. However, you can do as you did and shh pat back to sleep if he stirs, I'm just not sure if that would be called w2s? With my DD, she needed help all the way into deep sleep at first, and then even once she needed less help at the beginning of the nap, she still needed me to shh pat her all the way back into deep sleep (~20mins) if she woke in the middle of a nap, for a few more weeks, before she got better at resettling herself mid-nap. So you may need to do more to lengthen a nap, compared with what you do at the beginning of the nap, you'll only know that by trying a few things out... But I think the main issue here is probably getting the routine/A times right so that he's really ready for a nice long nap - you can shh pat/w2s all you like to try and extend but if he doesn't need to sleep longer then he'll struggle. I think you have a good idea of where you're heading now, will look forward to your update re the night

So as for EASY with solids, rather than posting an example here, hope you don't mind if I point you to a whole load of sample routines - you may find yourself referring to them later on, so here they are: chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

Oh I see creations beat me to it well I'll just post anyway rather than delete all that typing hope it's not too contradictory...

[Antie66]

Thanks you guys! I feel pretty chuffed about today, even if the second nap wasn't as long as it should have been. Will try again tomorrow and stay in longer. I just really hope it starts paying off at night time, as LO waking up 6 times is just madness.

Re the milk feeds - my only fear about snacking had to do with LO needing feeds during the night because he'd perhaps not taken good full feeds during the day, or being used to feed little bits frequently. But I guess since he sure has plenty of opportunity during the day, I will stick to feeding twice a night with minimum of 4 hrs between feeds and he'll just have to cope! Ok. Going to bed soon, as No guarantee tonight is going to be better. xx

[Antie66]

So the night ...

NW 9.50-10.10
NW + E 11-11.25
NW + E 4.55 - awake until 6.15
WU 8

Big improvement! But when he woke at 4.55am, he was quite awake. Rather than leaving him, I went straight in to nurse him, hoping he would fall back asleep on a full tummy. I left him chatting to himself for about 15 min after nursing, when I heard him trying to  poo (which took him quite a while), then he cried. So I went in, changed him and left him again in his cot - by this time it was 5.50am. He just Became more fussy, crying became louder, so at 6am I took him into my bed, nursed and he was asleep by 6.15am until 8am.

What is the best way dealing with these EW? Obviously I rather he had slept that hour from 5-6 and woken up at 7am! And I don't want to create a habit by taking him into bed, but at the same time, I want him rested in the morning as he has to stay up for 3 hours A time!!! But all in all delighted by the progress! x