Author Topic: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old  (Read 8124 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2015, 16:47:47 pm »
Today struggled again with w2s and with the 2nd nap:

WU 8
E 8.05
E 9.45-10.15 (solids and milk)
S 11.05 - 11.35 (he woke up when I entered the room for w2s, took really long time to resettle)
E 11.45
S 12 - 12.45
E 3
S 4.20 (in baby carrier)

LO had fallen asleep in the car at 3pm (max of 5-10 min) and when I tried to put him down (starting at 3.30) I just couldn't get him to sleep at all. Had to take him out in baby carrier to get him asleep, transferred to cot at 4.35.

I think Tomorrow I'll have the first A time 3hrs again and not going in for w2s (just waiting at the door with monitor that has video and sound) and have a shorter second A time of 2 hrs 30 or 45, as he is so difficult to settle for the second nap.

Happy Hogmanay everyone!!!

Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2016, 19:30:26 pm »
What is the best way dealing with these EW?
You can deal with them by feeding and taking him to your bed, but be prepared for this to rapidly become habit (if it is not already) and possibly effect other self settling (although LOs tend to create habits per sleep so there is a chance he learns this prop only here and not the other naps/BT/NW).
Or you can grit your teeth and teach him to self settle...
it was 5.50am. He just Became more fussy, crying became louder, so at 6am I took him into my bed, nursed and he was asleep by 6.15am until 8am.
Here you seem to be automatically feeding to sleep.  He had eaten at 4.55am so he wasn't in need of milk just 1 hour later when you feed him to get him back to sleep.  Do you feel you want to drop this fed prop or continue?


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2016, 20:22:08 pm »
I would really like to drop the prop :-) and teach him to self settle, not just for naps, but also in the early morning. Tell me how to do it please!! The reason I have been taking him into bed is because I don't know how to adjust the A time and routine in general when he wakes up at 5am and doesn't fall back asleep. And the morning nap is going so well, I didn't want to make that worse!!

Atm when I leave him after he wakes up in the morning, his cries go from mantra to seriously needing attention pretty quickly. When I go in, he is quite awake and wanting to play with my hands when I try patting him (ie he's far too awake for me to get him to sleep - he's playing me isn't he!!) and when I leave him in his room to just get on with it by himself, he gets upset pretty quick. Do I keep going in and out?

The night wasn't great again:
After his afternoon sleep
S 4.20-4.45
BT 7.30 (he fell asleep nursing)
NW 9.10-9.15
NW + E 10.30-10.45
NW 01.50-2.55 (E 2.40 couldn't settle him and by then it had been 4 hrs since last feed)
EW 5
Into my bed  :-[ and nursed to sleep from 5.45-6.15
WU 8

Today was much better
WU 8
S 11-12.30 (I didn't go in for w2s!) (A 3hrs)
S 3.15-3.45 (A 2 hrs 45 - nursed to sleep)
Nursed back to sleep
S 3.55-4.45
BT 7.25

Why was it better you may think ... When he went to bed this evening he seemed pretty awake to me (compared to his normal state at BT). He fed, butwas still very awake, he wasn't overly rubbing his eyes etc. I put him to bed just after 7pm with his lovey and watched on the monitor. There was a very short time of playing with his blankie, then he started crying, but sort of on and off and not very intense. Trying to fall asleep, but not managing, although there was a lot quiet in between. At 7.20 it became serious crying and I went in. I held his hand, he grabbed my arm, turned on his side towards me and fell asleep. Literally within a minute  :) Progress!

Can you please advice me on the afternoon nap, as we haven't managed that one at all yet. He seems OT, I've cut back A time (this isn't reflected in S time, because that's the time he actually fell asleep, but eg yesterday I started putting him down well before S time), but it hasn't worked yet. I was trying for 2hrs 30-45min, do I cut it back even more? And how do I make sure he is not OT at BT like today, if the pm nap isn't working? Routine partly gets delayed because of this getting up at 8am, but I guess those days will be over anyway nce I stop taking him into bed!   ;)


Offline trimbler

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 37
  • Posts: 3029
  • Location: London, UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2016, 20:41:01 pm »
Well done you certainly seem to have seen progress on the first nap with 3h A time :) He may well be a bit OT for his second nap, seeing how quickly he seems to have nursed back to sleep again. I know 3h is a big jump for him, so perhaps try holding at 2h45 for the second nap for a few days and see if he can get used to it? He may surprise you... I certainly wouldn't go less than 2h30, maybe somewhere in between if 2h45 really does seem like more than he can handle, even after a few days of trying.

With the prop thing... It may well end up in lots more OT once you do decide to wean, and you'll need to be consistent for a good few days as he'll likely be upset. I suspect that he is going down a bit OT at BT, as you say, which results in some of those NWs but could also be a cause of the EW. Mine can seem very alert with an OT EW, but from the way he can fall asleep for so long afterwards when you nurse, he certainly seems to need that extra sleep. If he's playing with your hands, you could try just using your voice if he's really upset. He likely will be upset if you don't nurse, since that's what he expects. Whatever you decide to do other than nursing, it may be a while before he gets the hang of it, and you may end up with lots of OT in the process :-\ But at least you're getting a better idea now of what he needs and what to aim for with his routine, which IMO is a better position to be in for prop weaning than when he wasn't taking good naps in the first place. I'm sorry I'm not sure if I'm being much help, probably rambling too much :-[



Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2016, 10:31:10 am »
WU 8
S 11-12.30 (I didn't go in for w2s!) (A 3hrs)
S 3.15-3.45 (A 2 hrs 45 - nursed to sleep)
Nursed back to sleep
S 3.55-4.45
BT 7.25

It is now Saturday am and this was the rest of the night after LO went at 7.25 pm for BT

NW + E 11-11.20
NW + E 3 - 3.30
NW 4.30 - 5.00 (only picked up once, I settled him in his cot without nursing YAY!!   :) )
NW 6.00 - 7.00 (couldn't get him back to sleep)
Getting up at 7am

I had left the room just before 7am, then went back in bright and shiny, turned lights on, GOODMORNING LO, time to get up now - big smile!! (I read that somewhere on the forum)

So again, I'm pretty chuffed with how it went. Especially that there were no NW before 11pm and between 11pm and 3am! I was fully expecting him to wake up around 5am, just happy I managed to get him back asleep for at least part of it.

This morning we managed to keep him up until 10am, so that A time was still 3 hrs - even though he effectively had been awake for 4 hrs. I put him to bed, without nursing, and he pretty much fell asleep as soon as he touched the mattress. I started patting his shoulder, but he was already in dreamland, so I just left 😀. He did wake at 11.05, so only a 1hr10min nap, but not too bad.

So I feel we were lucky this morning, but my question still stands - what if I hadn't managed to get him back to sleep - how is the routine adjusted? Or do we still try to keep him up until 10am or do I put him down earlier for the first nap? Or what if he would finally fall asleep around 6 or 6.30am, would I just let him sleep as long as, or do I wake him at 7am? And is it fine that he falls asleep on the boob after the night feeds and transfer him to his cot asleep? This is different from prop?

I feel that a lot of the success was due to a good second nap yesterday, but I nursed LO to sleep for that nap, and then back to sleep when he woke up 30min in. Will I try that nap after an A time of 2 hrs 30 today instead of 2 hrs 45?

Feel like we are finally starting to get somewhere ... (Which probably means things will change pretty soon!!)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 11:46:56 am by Antie66 »

Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2016, 10:58:52 am »
I would really like to drop the prop :-) and teach him to self settle, not just for naps, but also in the early morning. Tell me how to do it please!!
The big thing that changes is how you respond to him. And honestly for this you must be *ready* because as Trimbler says it is not going to be easy and he is going to be very frustrated and cry, he needs constant support through that and if at any point you choose to take him to your bed and nurser him to sleep again then all this teaches him is to cry longer and louder until you do as he wants (his habit, go to mummy's bed, feed to sleep).  It puts all of you through a horrible time for now result or reason.

The thing is that you need to separate hunger from the prop yourself.  The bit I pointed out in your earlier post where he had fed only 1hr earlier you were feeding with the idea of putting him to sleep with it and this is where you would need to change your approach.  Let me be clear though, no one here is going to frown on you if you decide to continue with this EW prop of feeding and co-sleeping, only that you need to be clear in your mind what you want.

I would say if it has been 3-4 hrs since last night feed then feed and put down in his own cot to sleep. When he protests you stay with him and try to settle him, pick up if needed but don't take him out of his room, settle in the cot if possible, if he is playing with your hands use voice.  Expect the first day for him not to go back to sleep at all (always better to keep expectations low and anything else is a result).  For now I would have a window of 'morning' so here are a few examples:
- if you have been in there trying to settle him from 4 or 5 am and it gets to 6am then lights on and it is morning
- if you have been resettling and he eventually falls to sleep at say 6am or even 6.50am you wake him up at 7am and start the day, regardless of how tired he is (first nap you could reduce the A by say 15 mins but not massively)
- if he settles and sleeps until anything past 6am you get him up as morning. So lets say he sleeps from 5.45 until 6.15 and you were able to leave the room, when he wakes again it is now morning, great him with a cheery good morning because he has slept on his own for part of that difficult period.

Hope this helps to describe the 'window' of morning, it means morning can begin between 6 and 7am depending on how that section of the night goes.  If possible you'd want to leave the room during a non-crying few mins so that you can return at his call with a morning greeting rather than a whispered night time soothing.

There are different approaches to the first A and nap times when doing something like this. Many count the first A from when LO woke up (so 5am - 8am) and whilst this helps to avoid OT it can also perpetuate the EW.  Tracy described in her book example of getting a LO into routine by keep the A and nap times set (or pretty much) for a few days regardless of LO getting OT.  In this case you would give nap pretty close to 10am (WU should be 7am so nap is at 10)...or you can kind of split the difference.  So you might give first nap at a 'set' time of 9am following a WU of 4,5,6am  anything after 6am you give the nap closer to 10am.
I'm not giving you a straight answer because I believe it is quite a personal decision on how you want to approach it.

Another thing you might consider doing, if you suspect LO will be OT (from a long NW due to weaning the F2S and co-sleeping) then when you put down for the first nap you leave the room as usual and when he falls asleep you go back in quietly to ready yourself to resettle and OT jolts, these can be at 10min, 20 mins, 30 mins...and you may well get a full nap without helping him or you might need to help. This is fine to help, it all teaching his to sleep at the right time and in his bed.

hope this helps!


Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2016, 11:00:09 am »
Only had a very quick glance at your latest post btw as you posted while I was typing. I hope my post answers some of your questions, will check back later tonight x


Offline trimbler

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 37
  • Posts: 3029
  • Location: London, UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2016, 13:40:48 pm »
I don't think I have much more to add to what creations said, just another way to consider the morning A time would be to count time spent trying to resettle in the cot as worth half of an 'up' A time. So if he wakes at 6 but you don't want him up until 7, you can try to resettle when he cries but count that period as just 30mins A time if he doesn't resettle to sleep. Then if you're aiming for 3h A time then his first nap would be at 9:30am. Just another option, as creations says it's up to you how you decide to proceed :-*



Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2016, 14:10:54 pm »
Thanks very much ladies, you have been so much help! He's asleep again now, for his second nap, after 3hrs A time (it so happened that I didn't get to shorten it) and he went tonsleep again, pretty much immediately. First time though for the am nap without nursing to sleep (today I did nurse him, but not to sleep - he was still awake and I then put him in his sleeping bag after nursing). Fingers crossed he'll have a long nap. I'm a bit wary of doing w2s after him waking up when I entered the room (after 30min) the other day, so will just see how it goes. Will update this post in a day or 2-3 (if I can wait so long  ;)) to update you on (hopefully) progress we made. Let you focus on helping some other mummies!!! Xx

Offline trimbler

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 37
  • Posts: 3029
  • Location: London, UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2016, 14:41:06 pm »
Glad to hear you so positive, great to see so much progress :) look forward to hearing more in a day or 2-3... ;) :-*



Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2016, 18:38:37 pm »
Sounds like you've had lots of success and can see the progress :)

Good luck over the coming days xx


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2016, 10:10:25 am »
Yes it is going well. Test showed that LO is a (spirited) Angel type baby and he takes well to changes and routine. Our initial success with EASY was unbelievable and we are definately on the right tack.

Sat 2-1:
WU 7 (but really 6am, I tried getting hm back to sleep until 7am)
A 7-9.55 (2hrs 55)
S 9.55-11.05 (1hr 10)
A 11.05-1.55 (2hrs 50)
S 1.55-3.10 (1hr 15)
A 3.10-6.25 (3hrs 15)
BT 6.25

NW 9.10 (settled as soon as I shushed <2min)
NW + E 00.15 - 00.30
NW + E 4.55 - 6.15 (finished feeding 5.20 - poo + nappy change after)
WU 7

Sun 3-1
WU 7
A 7 - 10
S 10 - 11.30
A 11.30 - 2.30
S 2.30 - 3 (went in immediately and he settled <2 min)
S 3 - 3.30
BT 6.25 (tried for 6pm, but OT and fussy)

NW 9 - 9.55 (E 9.45, nursed to sleep)
NW + E 4.30 - 5.10 (finished feeding at 4.50, left room, back in at 5pm, took 10min to settle)
WU 6.15 (left in cot until 6.40)

As you can see it's going pretty well and major improvements during night time. Naps are not consistently 1.5 hrs (usually shorter  :() and he's mostly OT by BT, but there isn't much time for CN (and that would definately have to involve APOP).

I find it very interesting (and challenging) to see how quickly the way he needs / likes soothing changes. I started this thread with needing help, as he seemed to have grown an aversion to the shush-pat in his cot on his side (which had worked well for about 2 weeks). I then did this adjusted thing over the shoulder, then that stopped working and we were back in his cot patting his shoulder and holding his hand or even pretty much pinning him down (especially when OT). Now everything just seems to annoy him and he's getting more and more wild and agitated before falling asleep. I'm now just singing his bedtime song to him, without touching at all and this has worked a couple of times (eventually, when the other things clearly weren't helpful). It's difficult, because he's not quite there yet with being able to sooth himself, but then I'm not able to help much anymore it seems, so he struggles and getting him to sleep takes that bit longer at BT and at naps. I look forward to being able to put him in his cot and that he's able to fall asleep by himself - that would just be amazing!!

I hope nap time increases to 1.5 hrs and that I can work out how to get the second nap right. Will keep you posted.

Offline trimbler

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 37
  • Posts: 3029
  • Location: London, UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2016, 18:30:41 pm »
Hey that looks like great improvement :D Shame about those night time poos, eh? My DD did the same, so frustrating ::) Well I'd definitely stick with 3h A before that first nap, the second is interesting as the 2h50 looked a bit UT and 3h a bit OT?? But give her a few days with 3h first A and hopefully consistently longer first nap, and see how she settles with that, you may find the second nap begins to stabilise... Ah DH back from,bath time, my turn now, see you later!



Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2016, 18:38:24 pm »
I just wanted to ask your advice regarding me helping him to settle. As I described above, he his throwing tantrums in his cot before sleep, even when I think I timed it right. He is constantly kicking his legs, arching his back, trying to flip off the mattress and flinging his arms. Does this sound familiar, is this what happens when you can't help them anymore (everything Intry just seems to make him more agitated) and they are just frustrated because they still struggle to fall asleep by themselves? He's been like this for both naps today, as well as when he woke early (also for both naps  :() and now the same at BT. Is it a routine issue - would he be doing this because OT or UT (I didn't think so as he even did it for his morning nap, which is his best nap)? I just left his room with him acting like this and after a few more screams he seems to have actually fallen asleep (about 5 min)  ... Does he just not need me anymore?

Today looked like this

WU 6.40
A 6.40 - 9.35 (2 hrs 55)
S 9.35 - 10.15
S 10.30 - 11.15
A 11.15 - 1.55 (2 hrs 40)
S 1.55 - 2.35 (tried to settle him until 4pm then gave up
BT 6.30

With a wee 10 min snooze in the pram just before 5pm (he woke up as soon as we got home).

I'll try to hold the pm nap to see whether it improves.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 18:42:12 pm by Antie66 »

Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2016, 21:43:52 pm »
I just left his room with him acting like this and after a few more screams he seems to have actually fallen asleep
It is incredibly difficult to describe a mantra cry as each LO sounds different but I do wonder if you are describing a mantra. Now i wouldn't normally describe 'screams' but I have read and experienced with my own DS (who did not scream his mantra although had a phase of sounding ever so sad during it which I kept interrupting as I was so worried of him actually being sad) of one final cry out or scream literally just before the nod off, like one last attempt to stay awake or, oh I don't know, but it does seem to exist.
I wonder is there any rhythm to this cry/screams?

The thrashing you describe could be one really annoy LO (UT) or one in pain, or could actually be self settling. It is amazing just how physical LOs are when they self settle. Mine throws his arms around, rubs his muslin in his face, then flings it (but keeps hold at the same time) like he is thrashing or waving it around etc etc, it looks like the least relaxing thing one could do and yet this is self settling.

As I'm not sure even further description would help us work out if he is SS and mantra 'screaming' perhaps you need to take a leap of faith and say goodnight, sleep well, call if you need me and just leave the room?
When mine was in his sad mantra phase I kept a clock outside the door and literally stood watching the seconds tick, I think I had in mind (and perhaps from a thread here) to give him 2 mins or go in before that if the cry clearly escalated, and I don't remember it particularly clearly but I think he was always asleep before the 2 mins was up.  This is not timing letting him cry but rather holding back as Tracy described so that you don't jump in too soon.  In my mind it could take me more than 2 mins to get to my DS had I been, for instance, in the shower or on the toilet (which we do all have to do time to time, even Mummies) even if I responded immediately to get there as fast as I could, so standing , holding back, right outside his door for 2 mins was difficult for me but I could just about manage. Of course the confidence builds when you realise they are fine and just going to sleep (in a very noisy way).