Author Topic: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old  (Read 4287 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2016, 18:48:11 pm »
So the later BT did not really result in a later WU time, but there was no 3-4am feed ...
It can take several days for Wu to move but also this particular later BT was down to the increased A time between naps to get better naps rather than from putting in place a plan to move the day on - moving the day on would be moving everything 15 mins later every day for several days until everything happens later than it is currently happening.  So there are two different reasons for the later Bt if that makes sense.


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2016, 09:46:27 am »
But we don't really have any fixed times for anything (ie eating), so not sure how rhat's done. And the later BT was down to a) later getting up time through cheating (sleeping some more in my bed) and b) increasing activity time, which led to two longer naps. Like I said we don't have set times for eating, but this has obviously been later due to longer A times and longer naps. The only standard thing is that I feed him when he wakes in the morning - should Impostpone this until say 7pm (solidas is not until after 8pm anyway). What would be the latest BT you recommend? We are currently holding on to 7.45pm, but again this morning it made no difference:

Yesterday

Awake at 5.45
Get up 6.30
A 3hrs 45min
S 10.15 - 10.50 (OT, had mis calculated)
Nursed back to sleep
S 11 - 12.25 (OMG!)
A 3hrs 30min
S 4 - 5
BT 7.45pm

NW 10.30 (standard) NF
NW 11.20 (just settled him)
EW 5.30

S 9.30 (today)


Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: 6 mo old - NW, EW, 45min naps, you name it - can't fall asleep by himself
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2016, 10:39:51 am »
With moving the day on imagine if the clocks change (don't know if they do or don't where you live, they do here in the UK), a 5.45am WU suddenly becomes a 4.45am WU and lets face it most people are not going to be happy with that.  Even though there are no 'set' times for eating and sleeping everything gets moved on 15 mins day 1 another 15 mins day 2 etc until the hour change is reached.  The 15 mins thing is what most people go for, long enough to get time to move, short enough not to cause too much OT.
If you usually call morning 6.30am (even though he woke earlier) then you begin by doing morning at 6.45am, count everything from there.
I'm not saying you have to do this, it is totally your choice.  It's an option to try when a LO is (in general) well rested and getting a reasonable amount of sleep but in the 'wrong place'.
It's not for everyone though and some LOs appear to have body clocks which are super strong and hard to 'break'. Whilst I managed to move my DS on for the clock change when he was a baby it was impossible for me to move his day on to create a later BT and WU and when he got a touch older I discovered he wouldn't move his WU time at clock change either...I had to move his times rapidly and way over the hour before his body clock accepted that something was different to force a later WU. I know what it's like having the early morning, I was grateful when our WU was 5.30am (which felt massively different to 4.30 or 5am) and in heaven when we finally got 6.30am!

Your DS's nights do seem a bit short. Under 10 hrs is not ideal.  If he's now in the habit of waking at 5.30 ish it's a really hard time to fall back to sleep, especially to self settle.  It could well be that one or two days where naps are good and BT is significantly later could get him over that habit and begin to wake later again.  With the day you detail above you might for instance give a long second nap and much later BT (nap as long as possible then the usual A before bed, sorry I forgot if that's 3hr before bed or 3hr 30, I can't see that page right now), not for ever but as a method to shift WU.  Then slowly ease back on the BT.  So with a 10hr night you could look at 8.30pm BT - but this has to be within reasonable A times, I think you know that, it wouldn't just be suddenly giving a 5hr A time before BT yk?  Getting into (or back into) the habit of sleeping to 6.30 can get him past the tricky 5.30 ish NW time and you could then slowly bring BT earlier to see if the night extended to beyond 10hrs.
The other option would be to offer a much earlier BT and see if that helps, so something like 6.30pm offering an 11hr night before he reaches the 5.30am time and see if he will do it and is overall better rested after having a shorter day.


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2016, 10:10:58 am »
It is me again unfortunately ... In the past weeks we have tried to move the EW by shifting the day with some success, but I think I might just have to accept that DS does not seem to sleep for more than 10 hours a night (??). I have put him to bed between 8-9pm (once even later) and he did sleep until later in the morning, but never longer than 10 hours a night. Shifting bed time back towards 7.30pm has resulted in earlier wake ups again. This however is not the issue at the moment ... We have seen teeth and we have been pretty ill and bad habits have crept in with lots of accidental patenting .. The result: baby only sleeps when I'm there, preferably in my bed, with boob near. I can get him to sleep without nursing fairly easily, but he will wake up after 10, 20, or 30 minutes and this is not because of OT I think. I can go in and settle him fairly easily, but he won't stay asleep. It's like he wakes up to check I'm still here .. (I am stting next to his cot atm during his first nap). I cannot get him to fall asleep on his own (which he did do for naps for one magical week!), I have to be in the room, singing his bed time song, or shushing, and usually touching his face (he needs the touch to pretend there is a breast).. In contrast to a few months back, I don't think it's specifically the boob anymore, it seems to be 'just' my presence now (separation anxiety during the night only??). I once had him in bed with me for a nap and I sawhim wake up, look up to the ceiling and ready to let out this massive cry, but then he turned his head and saw me (and I just saud shussh) and he closed his eyes and fell straight back to sleep. Because of the sleep problems, routine is a bit messed up but we are on 2 naps (first one is now always too short). He actually seems tired much earlier than after the 3hrs15 - 3.5 hrs I stuck to during his magic week if self settling. Is this normal / possible, that A decrease at a certain time?


I re-read secrions of Tracy's book again and am wondering whether indeed I need to stay next to him, while he is in the cot, to teach him to stay asleep. Which is why I'm sitting here now .. I don't want him sleeping in my bed, but that's where we ended up every night and for naps (pm naps are always in the pram / car). Perhaps not even because he'd be impossible to settle, but because I simply did not have the strength and energy to make it happen in the middle of the night .. But with work and nursery starting in a couple of weeks, I really want to. So I am mentally andvphysically ready and am asking for your support and how you think I can best tackle this?

PS didn't know whether to start a new post, feel free to move / start this as a new post
PS 2 Do you think a Ewan the Dream Sheep might work to replace me (I know another prop, but it could just stay on all night??) it just seems that my breathing (coughing, sniffing and turning around in bed) seems to keep him asleep ...

Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2016, 10:28:24 am »
Reading some other posts and a link on SA posted, I am thinking it may have been a combination of teething (we currently have the top ones coming through) and separation anxiety. But is the latter possible only at night with mummy? LO has absolutely no problem with strangers, he smiles at everyone all the time and I can literally dump him with anyone and leave - as long as he's not on his own seems to be the motto, because he does not like to be left alone in a room (but even as long as the dog is there or the tv is on he is totally fine!!). Also, I have been sitting next to his cot this whole time and he stirred after 30 and 45 min into his nap and I only had to shush and he stayed asleep. I also put him to bed after only 2hrs45 of A, much shorter than I normally would, because although we woke up at 6.45am eventually, he was initially awake at 5.30am and again just after 6am (we were in my bed and I nursed him and we dosed off again), after a fretful night of waking every 2 hrs ...

So he is sleeping well, in his own bed, as long as I'm sitting next to him to help him transition through the difficult bits .... which I obviously don't want to have to keep doing. What do I do?

Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2016, 12:51:32 pm »
In the past weeks we have tried to move the EW by shifting the day with some success, but I think I might just have to accept that DS does not seem to sleep for more than 10 hours a night (??).
If he only does a 10 hr night then this may be just what you accept for now. Mine did 10.5hr nights and I realised this was just his max night sleep.  He did longer short a short time around nap drop then it would shorten again, and eventually when he dropped to no naps at all he ended up with a 12hr night.  some LOs just don't seem to do a longer night no matter what you do.

It's a bit confusing to work out where you are up to tbh.
So, you are with him throughout naps and nights?
Where are you both sleeping?
Have you stopped feeding to sleep now?
Are you holding to sleep?
I feel I'll have to warn you that this may not be resolved to the point of a fully settled routine with him self settling in the space of just 2 weeks before you go back to work.

Do you use white noise? It sounds as though this could be just the thing for your LO if he likes the sound of you shushing or just breathing to feel comforted.

Whilst LOs do need extra support when teething or ill and do need responding to more frequently when there is SA, the level of prop use can be more difficult or less difficult to remove depending what you've chosen to do to get through the tricky time.

What is it you are really aiming for now honey?
He sleeps naps and nights in his own bed in his own room?
He self settles (no feed to sleep or hand on him throughout the sleep)?
Do you feel you are ready to commit day and night to sleep training?

also how old is he now?


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2016, 16:07:53 pm »
Ok let me try to answer your questions ... Up until yesterday he would fall asleep in his cot and stay there until I would go to bed. In those 2-3 hours he would gave already wojen several times, during which I would go in to settle him, usually without feeding and very little picking up. When he wakes once I'm in bed, I tend to take him into bed with me. He sometimes sleeps very well with only 1 waking after that (during which I feed) and a couple of stirring, but he might wake every 1-2 hours and I then usually have to nurse him to sleep if simple shushing is not enough. At BT he feeds right before sleep and will usually fall asleep on the boob, but wakes when I put him down in his cot. I can then settle him in his cot (hand to face).

Naps are worsening. He falls asleep in his cot without feeding (but I have to be there to settle him), but the last few days ge's been waking up so often during naps too (after 10, 20 or 30 minutes and tgen again after I settle him) that when he wakes for the 2nd or 3rd time I would either nurse him to sleep or again take him into bed and we nap together. Afternoon naps are usually in the pram during a long walk.

Today I have 'started' keeping him in his cot and no nursing. I stayed with him, while he was in his cot, so I would be there when he woke - hoping to extend his nap time without him waking up - with some success. This is how it looked today

Wu 6.45 (co-sleeping and awake at 5.30 and 6, nursed to dooze / sleep)
S 9.25-10.35 (shushed back to sleep after 25 and again after 45 min into nap)
A 10.35-2.05 (3.5 hrs)
S 2.05 -2.30 (stirred, open eyes, little cries and arching back: i shushed, stroked head etc but it was just getting worse, so picked him up for half a minute, rubbed his back and sang his song and put him back down once settled. Then held my hand against his face / mouth and sang his nighty night song)
S 2.35-3 (eyes open and wake, rubbing and little cries. I did pupd for 25 min, then got him up, opened curtains and got him dressed and nursed him)
BT 7.20
Tonight I nursed at the start of his routine instead of at the end, so he went into his cot without nursing. However, he was pretty much asleep already on the changing mat. Asleep in his cot with a few lullabies and head stroking. I sat next to him for another 10 minutes then left the room.

He is 8 months old next week

I'm aiming for 2 naps a day, whereby he falls asleep independently and stays asleep for at least 1 hour and 15 minutes. And for night time I am aiming for ideally only 1 night feed (after midnight)and if needs be an early morning feed, expecting a 10 hour night (with a BT of 7.30-ish). Mind you that an early morning feed with such EW often does not result in sleep after the 2nd feed.

He does not self settle (he did this for only about a week before illness and teeth)
I do not use white noise

I am ready to commit!!

Can use advise on how to do pupd at this age and how to deal with him when he wakes up from his naps (for 2nd or 3rd time) after an hour, as I am not getting him back to sleep (and when I do get him up he's a very happy smiley boy too). He is heavy, his mattress is down, so not ideal for pupd atm (though can put mattress back up because he's not rolling in his cot). Holding him calms him at first and he'll fall asleep if I keep holding him, but when i put him down then after a few times he just gets upset even when i pick up again, and no matter what I do after a while helps calm him again it seems??.

And I guess my immediate question is whether I should put a mattress next to the cot and sleep there (perhaps this would be more for my benefit?) or is that counter productive?

« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 19:27:17 pm by Antie66 »

Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2016, 16:14:42 pm »
I know I messedit up with all the props, but the only 'bright side' is that my baby seems pretty adaptable and 'Angel' (and a bit of spirited) and that he 'learns' quickly ... (She said after taking up 5 pages on this forum ;-)

Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2016, 19:51:21 pm »
he 'learns' quickly ... (She said after taking up 5 pages on this forum ;-)
ha ha, amusing Antie :)

Ok, so first a bit of reading on PUPD.
10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd
The dirty dozen:  12 reasons PU/PD won't work
And then I'll say PUPD is not really the route to go right off. I know at the beginning of the thread you said you had used PUPD for a few days and had then been able to settle using shush/pat, at this point shush/pat or stroking, a hand on him etc are what I would suggest (along with some gradual withdrawal as needed) and to use PUPD as a last resort.

I am ready to commit!!
This really is the key.  When you have a soothing method such as BF to calm and get him back to sleep it may be very tempting to do so when you are tired.  I just want to say before you set out on this that it is likely to be tiring, you are likely to miss some sleep, it is likely to be hard, frustrating, he is likely to cry...and it will all be for nothing if you resort to BF as a prop again or if you bring him back to your bed when you are tired.  It is unfair to both yourself and your LO to go through hours or even days of sleep training, loss of sleep, crying etc only to then return to the props - so only start if you feel sure.

Throughout the sleep training I suggest you respond to 'I need you' cries rapidly (only holding back if it is a mantra cry, a low level repetitive type sound) use touch, shushing, patting or a hand near his face to help reassure, pick up to calm him if he is getting very upset or crying hard and put down when fully calm, but not to resort to feeding or co-sleeping.

During naps you keep him in his room and try to resettle until the end of nap time (nap time is at least 1hr 30) this means if he wakes after 1hr you do your best to resettle for 30 mins.  Then you get him up and move on with A time.

A times after a short nap (anything under 1hr 30 is short), many people reduce the A time following a short nap. In your case I'm going to suggest you hold the A time pretty firmly because you want/need results as quickly as possible (before you return to work) and this is the most straight forward way to get onto a decent routine.  So time the A time from when the nap should have ended even if he was not asleep and give a full A time (if you really need to put him down sooner then make it no more than 15 mins).  When you record your EAS you will need to note down when he actually woke (as this is the 'real' A time) to when he actually went to sleep but this A time will be longer than those shown below.  This may well elad to OT but when you are dropping props, sleep training and putting LO on a regular routine some OT can turn out to be in your favour, eventually he *will* sleep.
I hope this makes sense.

So I think the place to start is where you last had an A time he would sleep from, I think that was 3hr 30.
here's a routine to work with:

WU 6.00 if he wakes before this and is quiet leave him to it, if he cries for attention respond with shush/pat until 6am
A 3hr 30
S 9.30 - 11.00/11.30
A 3hr 30 (the real A time might be longer than this if he napped short)
S 2.30 - 4/4.30
A 3hr 30
BT 7.30/8.00
NF when he wakes and there has been a 4hr+ interval between feeds
night expect 10 hrs, but FX with a decent length first A time and learning to sleep without props he will lengthen this at least a bit.

Other things:
If he only calms in arms and starts to nod off you need to get him in the cot, you have mentioned putting him down after he has fallen to sleep and that after a few times of this he then just cries and continues to cry even if you pick up again, it's because he is really tired, he is getting frustrated with you putting him down and likely giving you a firm talking to about it, be sympathetic and understanding of his frustration and hold him until he is calm but then put him down, keep your hands firmly on him, it might not be super comfortable for you but it may help to reassure him and as he gets increasingly tired he might give in to the sleep if your hands are on him and he is almost picked up, or picked up securely but only a few mm away from his mattress. I would avoid trying to 'sneak' him down after he is asleep as it's almost like cheating him and if he is going to learn to settle without your help then he needs to learn how to fall to sleep in the cot. If he happens to nod off in your arms either wake him put him down and settle him in the cot or tell him loudly "I'm putting you down now so you can sleep properly, everything is okay" and put him down.

Putting a mattress on his floor - sure if you can fit one in the room.  This can make the nights easier for you but don't give in to the temptation to bring him onto the mattress with you, he needs to sleep in his cot.  You might find a way to put a hand on him to reassure but remember to remove it once he is reassured.  You might find a key phrase helpful "go to sleep" to use instead or as well as shushing.

White noise - your LO might really like this if you want to try it. it replaces the shushing (can be used during wind down or you can sing or shush for wind down and then put the white noise on) and provides a background noise he can focus on, he no longer feels as alone as when the room is silent. You said he seems to do well with the sound of your breathing or with the TV on so white noise could be a useful tool here.  There are a variety of white noise machines on the market, or you can download and burn to CD various free white noise tracks or paid for tracks (google to find some, there are lots which are a very small payment) or there are CDs which can be bought and set to repeat play throughout the nap/night.  Some people set their ipod or phone to play the white noise.  There are also various other noises, pink noise, brown noise, blue noise which you can explore. Have a think.

The main thing here is to keep moving forward with the goal of him self settling, don't linger your hand on him if it is not needed, remove it, you can always replace it again if needed.  Don't be scared of him waking up, instead see it as another opportunity to practise settling and self settling.  Don't be scared to leave the room, you can always walk back in. Basically don't make yourself too comfortable and stay 'aware' of what you are doing.  it is quite easy to get carried away with patting, holding, staying in the room etc but don't, you always respond but always keep moving forward with that goal in mind.

Well, that's a lot to read through and think about.
xx


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2016, 22:20:33 pm »
Thank you so much creations, I am already feeling less alone and it is all very good advise. I went to see a friend tonight, but my DH phoned and by the time I got home he had been going *apepoo** (his words not mine) for about 45 minutes. Nothing DH did had helped, as he is normally not involved in putting him to bed (something to work on). LO stopped crying as soon as Inwalked in and it took less than 2 minutes to get him back in his cot asleep, without nursing (although he had pretty much immediately fallen asleep in my arms, so did go down asleep).

A of 3hrs30 was on the long side (I remember he slept well on 3hrs15 but after a few days he started waking again after 45 min for am nap, so I was going to increase morning A time) - I will check my diary. Anyway, today he only had 1hr sleep in the morning and again in the afternoon and was still smiling, so can try it. If I thought it was too long (atm he seems to struggle already after 2.5-3 hrs in the morning), would I adjust it to 3hrs15 from a 6am wake up and thus ending up with a slightly earlier BT? If he wakes up later (one can wish!) do I let him sleep and keep the same A times?

Couple of questions:
- when he wakes after 6am (or before but i tried to get him back to sleep until 6am) and indo do my big hoolahoop proud mummy your such a fantastic sleeper dance, can i then take him into my bed (with lights on) for morning feed and snuggle? Do I actually have to get up ... (I think i know the answer but thought i ask anyway) Do I give morning breast feed right after 6am, or wait until eg 7am? (Often he's not feeding in the morning because he will have been awake early morning between say 4-5am and got fed then)?
- LO is very easily distracted during feeds and i basically need to sit in nursery,with door closed and turn off the lights. Do I do this (a while) after he wakes up, or what would be the best timing? It has happened in the past that he would fall asleep on the boob after I got him up from his nap and this was even with lights on and fully dressed... (Do I then wake him up?)
- we are going away for the weekend and are staying the night with friends. I was going to sleep with him in the double bed ... Postpone sleep training until after, or separate travel cot in the room and just get on with it (don't see why not - note to self, bring ear plugs for friends ;-)
- when i do feed him during the night (if it has been more than 4 hours since last feed), is it ok for him to feed until he is asleep (can i put him back into his cot asleep, or do i actually need to wake him)?
- when i feed him during the night when it's been more than 4 hours, but i notice he doesn't really drink much and it's really more for comfort (he might fall asleep straight away or after only one breast), what would be my plan for the next night?
- if he wakes up early morning, but before 6am, but it has been 4 hrs (eg if he wakes and feeds at 1am and then wakes at 5am or 5.30am), do I feed him (does this not create habitual waking in the early morning?) hoping he'll fall back asleep (but not on the boob?) until passed 6am even, or do I not feed him and try getting him back to sleep until 6am?
- what does FX stand for?
- say he sleeps for an hour and it then takes me 25 min to get him back to sleep. Do I then wake him from / cap his nap, or let him sleep? Same for the morning?

Re mattrass - i just removed my own (single) bed out the nursery a couple of weeks back as I hadn't used it for a long time. Might put it back!
Re white noise - our fancy baby monitor plays white noise, so very easy to come by. I might give this a try. How would I get him used to it, ie make this a positive sleep association? We have another tune during wind down (but this requires pulling a giraffe's tail and does not last very long, so I only do this [over and over] during wind down), then a special nighty night song that I usually sing until he's asleep - I should probably stop that before he falls asleep?

Wise words about not getting too scared. He has been sleeping so lightly that we end up tip toeing, which is good for no one. x

Update of night 1:

BT 7.20
NW 8.30-9.15
NW 10.20-10.25
NW / NF 11.30-11.45 (started a bit reluctant, butbsteadily emptied both breasts)
Fell asleep on the boob, in cot asleep
NW 11.55 (screaming, where did that boob go?!) - 11.58
NW 00.45-00-50
NW / NF 4.25-5.55 (this was hard, feeding only lasted 15-20 min of this time)
WU 7.45

How to adjust the day ... I think A time of 3 hrs15 might be enough today, given he's likely not to take super duper naps on this second day (yesterday 2 hrs 10 in total!)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 08:52:18 am by Antie66 »

Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2016, 10:19:17 am »
If you feel starting at 3hr 15 is better then go for it, remember I am only here reading words and times, you are with him and you are Mummy :)
I imagine that his A would be a bit longer now as he is a bit older, I'm judging by what you've said about the week he slept well on 3hr 15 - 3hr 30 which was a little while back.

I'll try to answer your questions best I can:
would I adjust it to 3hrs15 from a 6am wake up and thus ending up with a slightly earlier BT? If he wakes up later (one can wish!) do I let him sleep and keep the same A times?
Yes and yes. In fact although he had NWs last night it looks like he did 12+hrs in bed so it's possible his nights are not limited to 10hrs after all.

- when he wakes after 6am (or before but i tried to get him back to sleep until 6am) and indo do my big hoolahoop proud mummy your such a fantastic sleeper dance, can i then take him into my bed (with lights on) for morning feed and snuggle? Do I actually have to get up ... (I think i know the answer but thought i ask anyway)
I'd get right up. I know the snuggles are nice but for the training period he needs to know this is *day* and not dozing time.

Do I give morning breast feed right after 6am, or wait until eg 7am? (Often he's not feeding in the morning because he will have been awake early morning between say 4-5am and got fed then)?
It's up to you. Mine didn't like to eat the moment he woke up anyway and didn't have a 4am feed so his E time was always about 30 mins after WU.
You could feed at say 6.30, a top up which gets you back on track for the E times to fit with the rest of the day's routine.

- LO is very easily distracted during feeds and i basically need to sit in nursery,with door closed and turn off the lights. Do I do this (a while) after he wakes up, or what would be the best timing? It has happened in the past that he would fall asleep on the boob after I got him up from his nap and this was even with lights on and fully dressed... (Do I then wake him up?)
Some LOs do need a quiet room to feed without distraction, that's fine. I would keep him awake and if he nods off wake him up.  The BW EASY routine is based on LO staying awake for feeds, it is difficult to drop a prop and work out the right A time if he is dozing or left to sleep whilst nursing.

- we are going away for the weekend and are staying the night with friends. I was going to sleep with him in the double bed ... Postpone sleep training until after, or separate travel cot in the room and just get on with it (don't see why not - note to self, bring ear plugs for friends ;-)
Personally I wouldn't put my friends through the sleep training days and wouldn't expect LO to sleep independently in a different environment which he is not used to... perhaps now is not the time to begin training.

- when i do feed him during the night (if it has been more than 4 hours since last feed), is it ok for him to feed until he is asleep (can i put him back into his cot asleep, or do i actually need to wake him)?
I would not aim for him to be asleep after a NF but many LOs can fall to sleep on a NF and still be independent sleepers. If he is asleep I would tell him you are putting him back in his bed so he can sleep properly.

- when i feed him during the night when it's been more than 4 hours, but i notice he doesn't really drink much and it's really more for comfort (he might fall asleep straight away or after only one breast), what would be my plan for the next night?
Does this often happen?  If it is frequent it may be habitual in which case you might consider dropping a night feed.  if it is one night then I wouldn't take it into account at all.

- if he wakes up early morning, but before 6am, but it has been 4 hrs (eg if he wakes and feeds at 1am and then wakes at 5am or 5.30am), do I feed him (does this not create habitual waking in the early morning?) hoping he'll fall back asleep (but not on the boob?) until passed 6am even, or do I not feed him and try getting him back to sleep until 6am?
If you feel he needs 2 night feeds then I'd feed him at the 5am.  Some BF LOs do seem to need 2 night feeds a bit longer although I need to say I am not experienced in BF as I couldn't continue past 4wks so mine was FF and dropped his DF at about 6 months.

- what does FX stand for?
Fingers crossed :) A hope.

- say he sleeps for an hour and it then takes me 25 min to get him back to sleep. Do I then wake him from / cap his nap, or let him sleep? Same for the morning?
Wake him from his nap when it reaches 2hrs from the initial sleep time so if nap is 9.30 and he sleeps until 10.30, then you spend 25 mins getting him to sleep it will be 10.55 when he falls to sleep. Let him sleep until the 2hr mark, so 11.30 then wake him and follow this with a full A time.
For morning WU if it takes him past 6am I would wake him at 7am and begin the day, again with a full A time (so first nap comes 10.15/10.30)

Re white noise - our fancy baby monitor plays white noise, so very easy to come by. I might give this a try. How would I get him used to it, ie make this a positive sleep association? We have another tune during wind down (but this requires pulling a giraffe's tail and does not last very long, so I only do this [over and over] during wind down), then a special nighty night song that I usually sing until he's asleep - I should probably stop that before he falls asleep?
I would use the giraffe and song as your wind down then put him in bed. Once in bed turn the white noise on.  Even with white noise you can continue to sooth him either until he is nodding (then stop) or until he is asleep (only if needed).  at each stage of training you need to keep in mind your goal which is to put him down awake say something like "have a nice sleep, call if you need me" and leave the room.  If at any stage you 'linger' on a particular soothing technique you are teaching him this is the way to sleep, so you continue to reduce, always responding when needed but always with a mind to reducing.  Otherwise you will find yourself trapped in the room singing throughout the nap with a hand on him throughout the nap and the white noise playing too.  The white noise is not considered a prop because it can continue without your input throughout sleep time.

Wise words about not getting too scared. He has been sleeping so lightly that we end up tip toeing, which is good for no one. x
White noise should help cover the sounds of life in the house so you can relax a bit more.

hope this helps. Good luck :)


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #71 on: February 29, 2016, 17:02:27 pm »
It's perhaps a bit soon for an update, but would like some advise on the naps because as it's going is not really working for me. I start winding him down, so he's ready to go into his cot at the suggested times. As soon as i put him down he starts screaming. As soon as i leave the room he screams (do i leave the room when he screams - do i go right back in when he screams?) but when I eventually get him to sleep by staying with him (which takes a while) he wakes many times, even in the first 30 minutes. When he does make the full 30 minutes, it's pretty impossible to get him back to sleep after this and I don't have a crying, but a screaming baby on my hands. There is no such thing as settling him in his cot, the only way is to pick him up, but as soon as I put him down (as soon as he stops crying) he starts screaming again, and again and again. Feels like cio just with me there (making it no better if not worse!) On the 2 occasions he did sleep an hour (which already required a lot of settling to get that far), it's pure screaming the remaining 'nap' time. When we then get up, he's happy as can be ...

Some days

WU 7.45
Put him down at 10.30
S 10.45 - 11.45
Put him down at 3.15
S 3.35 - 4.05
BT 7.30

NF 00.30 - 00.50
NW  03.30 - 4.35
NF 5.30 - 5.50
WU 6.50

We did go away for the weekend and timed his naps with the car ride. And he fell asleep in the baby carrier the other naps. The night there we co-slept, but I only fed him the two times (he did not actually wake much more than that anyway). So I was expecting a set back anyway.

Yesterday
WU 6.40
S 10.10 - 11.30 (baby carrier then trasferred to bed, went in to shush a couple of times)
S 5.40 - 5.15 (in car)
BT 8.15
NW 10.50-11.15
NF 11.50-00.10
NW 1.30-1.55
NF 4-4.45
WU 6.30

Today
WU 6.30
Put down at 10
S 10.20-10.30 (woke up everytime Inleft room x3)
S 10.30-10.55 and 11.05-11.30
S 3.30-4
Screamed until 4.40 then i gave up and got lights on ...

You said he will sleep .. I wonder when ... :-((( with these 'naps' I have no down time at all and I am finding it very hard.

You said not to go down the road of pupd yet. Why not? I'm wondering whether that at least is not a 'clearer' method? I know I'm not at it for very long, but doesn't all this shushing and stroking and singing just make him more dependent on me there? I just feel like i have no idea what i'm doing (tears) ...

It's not helping my sister is visiting and she keeps saying to just give him to her and after 3 nights (of crying) she'll have him sorted. I really do NOT wantbto use cio, but I feel so desperate (more tears) and having just finished another 1.5 hr crying sessiom, I am not sure what I'm doing is so much different or better.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 17:17:49 pm by Antie66 »

Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #72 on: February 29, 2016, 19:45:00 pm »
Hugs honey, I know this is hard for you.

You are right, there isn't much to update on when you have been away so things have not been set up for the best success just yet but it's  ok to update and seek extra support when you feel you need it.

Sleep training is not easy.  let me try to respond to some of what you've said:
You said he will sleep .. I wonder when ... :-((( with these 'naps' I have no down time at all and I am finding it very hard.
Sorry honey but you can't expect Y time during sleep training unless you call in the back up and get them to take LO during A time so you can rest/nap. Some times people share the work with DH, sometimes Mum does all the sleep training but has someone to take LO in A time, then mum picks up the responsibility at nap time again (ie the hard part).
I do acknowledge is it hard. it is not going to be like this for ever. I would advise to see it through now you're in it otherwise all this that you and LO have gone through already will be for nothing...and next time you try it could take longer because LO could think it's just a matter of crying longer to get you to change back to what he wants, the props.

As soon as i leave the room he screams (do i leave the room when he screams - do i go right back in when he screams?
Don't leave the room if he's screaming (unless you feel you absolutely must walk away to take a breather, sorry some parents do get to the end of their tether, it is safer to walk away if you reach the end of your but otherwise you stay and stay.  If you do need to walk away try to say "I'm coming back" leave the room calm yourself, count to 10 if needed, then return when you have control of yourself, when you return say "I'm back" and give him a cuddle).
If he is calm and you leave the room and he screams, yes you go right back. With BW methods we do not agree with leaving LO to cry alone for any period of time (other than for safety reasons as said above).

There is no such thing as settling him in his cot, the only way is to pick him up, but as soon as I put him down (as soon as he stops crying) he starts screaming again, and again and again.
If you need to pick up then do so. When calm put down.  When he scrams pick up.  Use shush/pat in arms or in the cot when you can or a key phrase if the shushing bothers him (sorry I forgot what he prefers and haven't had time to read back).  At some point he will be so close to sleep that he will basically nod off the second you pick him up, at this point put down right away and keep your hands close so you can briefly pick up again if he screams again. When you put down you can keep your hands on him for reassurance.

Feels like cio just with me there (making it no better if not worse!)
Research on rhesus monkeys shows that cortisol (stress) levels are low or barely detectable when the parent in in view and he can hear her in contrast to extremely high (damaging) levels where young monkeys cannot see or hear their mother and receive no comfort. Monkeys who can see/hear/touch their mother might cry longer and louder than those who have no mother present but this is because those without the mother present 'give  up'.  I strongly believe that crying with you present is not at all the same as CIO or CC.  your LO might well cry louder and longer but his stress levels are low, it is not harmful to his brain development and he knows he is safe, so long as you are there he knows 'mum says this is ok so I must be safe' it isn't going to stop him shouting in frustration though. He has had props for, what, 8 months? so he has been taught this is how to sleep and now yo are changing the rules, of course he will shout and cry.  Try to be reassured that this is not CIO.

You said he will sleep .. I wonder when ...
Every nap in the cot with the same WD and the same rules, he will get it in 3 days.  I'm afraid if you keep changing the rules he will not get it so soon, trips away, car naps, carrier naps etc are not going to teach him how things are going to be.  It is the consistency plus parental support which will help him learn to sleep independently.

You said not to go down the road of pupd yet. Why not?
PUPD is a last resort method.  We always use shush/pat (or adapted, key phrase with firm hand say) before PUPD because it is gentler and because after initial sleep training you will need something to return to time and again to help you LO during normal struggles (illness developmental leaps, teething, nightmares etc), you want LO to associate something with comfort a stroke or pat a key phrase if not shush, rather than always waiting until he is screaming and starting PUPD.
In addition PUPD cannot be used where there are props in place. In your case the temptation to mix with props is, I think too strong.  You haven't yet had a clear run of sleep training to try PUPD anyway with the car naps, carrier naps etc.
When do I use PU/PD?
10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd

but doesn't all this shushing and stroking and singing just make him more dependent on me there?
Not more dependent on you, more trusting of you. the more you are there (but without the props) the more he learns to trust that you will *always* come when he needs you. That is the point at which he feels safe and confident to fall asleep alone because he *knows* you will always always respond to a need, he can trust you so much that he doesn't need you.

It's not helping my sister is visiting and she keeps saying to just give him to her and after 3 nights (of crying) she'll have him sorted.
I'm sorry that your sister is not supportive. Personally I'd tell her to mind her own if she isn't going to offer the sort of support you could use/need/accept. She could offer to take LO during A time so you can rest and you will do the sleep training.
CIO breaks the bond of trust it is damaging for LOs, I wouldn't fall out with your sister over this but neither would I listen to her.
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!

Again I want to reassure you that supporting your child whilst sleep training, being there responding to him, picking him up, using a key phrase or shush/pat is not the same as CIO.
You wanted to commit to this before returning to work. commit from now, cot naps and nights with your support, and you will see results, and not results that are harmful but results that maintain your LOs trust in you.

hugs, I know you are tired. Try to remember your aim, try not to listen to unhelpful people.
xx


Offline Antie66

  • New, But Posting Steadily!
  • **
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Posts: 76
  • Location:
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2016, 10:37:05 am »
Hi Creations, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! I want you to know that you are really pulling me through here and that I am ever grateful. I's sent you flowers if I knew who you were and where you live.

Some credit to my sister is due, even if she would (and has) personally do things differently, she respects my ways and is very helpful in looking after him during A times and better yet, cooking for us just now. She even offered to take him during the night, or parts of the evening so I could get some shut eye and would follow 'my way'. And she cleaned my whole house ... You wonder how I dare complain in the first place, but it is SO draining to listen to your baby cry for such long periods of time. I just felt like a complete emotional wrack yesterday.

Your explanations and links regarding cio versus what I'm doing are SUPER helpful, validating the time and effort I'm putting in. You won't believe this, but I'm actually a research fellow in primatology :-) It is all the reading I've done throught the years, listening to people like Jane Goodall speak and the time I have spent in the field observing baboons, that tells me in my gut that I'm doing the right thing. Now that I actually have a baby, I have NO time or energy to research the different sleep training methods, so I am grateful for your summary and links with scientific paper references!!

I definately think LO has been overstimulated and OT going down for naps. He is an Angel, but also very spirited and I remember they need a good wind down period. I skipped the bath completely yesterday (as this is mostly play for him and he comes out very tired!) and just played and cuddled in dark room with lullabies. He was nearly asleep again on the changing mat, putting on pyamas...

Still a lot of NW, but at least no prolonged stretches of being awake (those kill me)

BT 7.40
NW 8.30 (very briefly - hand on chest and back asleep)
NF (and nappy change needed) 11.30-00.00
NW 2.20-2.30
NF 3.20-3.40
NW 5-5.10
WU 6.15

He went down for his nap at 9.30 (A 3hrs 15) after a slightly lnger winding down period again,mand I am typing you this with him having been asleep for 1 hour and 10 minutes already (and counting!!). Yay!

Hope we are on the right track. Will update in a couple days. x

Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old
« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2016, 18:44:35 pm »
Sounds like your sister is really helping out, that's wonderful.

And sounds like things are heading in the right direction too.  Settling is getting easier it seems.

I'm actually a research fellow in primatology
amazing ! :)

Keep going then, rest when you can, take whatever help you can and don't be disheartened if there are still some tricky times to come.  You can do this.