6 months short napper - extend A time?

[mulvia]

Hello again! I've been reading other posts on fixing the short naps issue by extending A time - it did seem to be too short for my DS (he's 6 months and stays awake only about 1,5 hr before first nap, a little longer through the day). Sometimes he wakes up after 20 minutes and seems happy enough so maybe he just doesn't need much, but if ALL his naps are that short it's definitely not enough sleep, correct? Our EASY so far looked a bit like this:

WU anywhere between 5.45 and 7
E 7 (unless EW, then feed early and try to get back on schedule during the day)
A until 8.30ish
S - sometimes this nap has lasted 1,5 hr, but it's still the exception rather than the rule
E 11ish
A until 12.30ish
S generally only 20 or 45 min
E 15
A until 17ish
S - this nap rarely happens, and usually only 20 min
bedtime routine starts at 18.30ish, E at 19 and bed

I'll bullet point questions for easier reference:
- if first nap is too short, then he's up before 10 and by the time it gets to feed time at 11 (he's started recently on solids at this time) he's tired and cranky and may not manage to eat since it takes more effort than BF. So at times I have been putting him down again for another nap before feeding (again only 20 minutes or so). Is it still ok to make up for short naps this way at his age? I'll add that when he wakes he has a bit of a play on his own (I leave him alone to see if he goes off again) but after 10-15 mins starts calling and is wide awake. Most time it's no use trying to resettle him.
- I am trying to stretch A time as I've seen suggested before, but it seems to shorten even his first nap (which is usually the most successful). Should I ignore his tired signs (usually happening at 1,5 hrs after waking on the dot, or even earlier!) and just keep him up?
- He's never really taken to the late afternoon CN, however again due to short naps earlier in the day this may mean that he's only slept 40 to 90 minutes in total and he's awake since 2 pm til bedtime routine, so I keep trying to put him down around 5 and sometimes he does have a little sleep (20-45min). Should I instead try to suppress it altogether?

Thanks in advance for suggestions!

[creations]

Hello again

Your LOs A time is very short for his age which is likely not helping him sleep.  Some LOs like to have a shorter first A time, it's an individual thing, if your first nap of the day generally goes quite well how about leaving that one as it is and then working to extend then second A time and helping him learn to take a longer second nap?

Just looking at your EASY, it may be misguiding me about the times. Looks like he might be awake from 10 until 12.30pm so a 2hr 30 A time, is that right?
Can you tell me how he goes off to sleep, do you help him or does he self settle?  If he is an independent sleeper what method did you use to teach him to go to sleep alone?

Whilst we are supporting you can you record your EAS times through the day please by recording the times when things actually happen so that we have no confusion over what time he sleeps and wakes and how long his A times are.  So it will be what really happens rather than what you hope/plan for.  Add little notes just as you have done above, they help too.

I know you didn't ask about feeding but as you've mentioned the difficulty with the solids feed I'll just mention, at this age you would continue with your regular BF times (usually about 4hr intervals so 7, 11, 3, 7) and offer a solids meal roughly 1hr after one of the BF, generally we suggest after WU (so breakfast at or after mid morning milk (so lunch at 12).  What you should find is that he is not too hungry (if he has not BF he will be too hungry for solids and will need/want his milk which he can get in him quickly) but willing to try a few bites or licks of solids.  It's just tastes at this stage, no need to try to get a full meal in.  If he is too tired by 12 you could offer at say 11.45 giving him 15-30 mins tasting time then wind down for nap.  Tracy suggested offering another BF at the end of the solids meal, some LOs like this you need to offer this or a cup of water or both in case LO is thirsty.
Throughout the solids introduction and weaning you will continue with the milk feeds and won't want his milk intake to drop at all.  The solids will be calories in addition to milk rather than instead of.  At around 10 or 11 months you might switch 1 of the milk feeds to a solids snack - you are quite a way off this yet - it's often the 11 or 3 milks which switch leaving the WU and BT milks in place until or beyond 12 months.  Some BF mums choose to keep more milk feeds, that's fine too.
Hope this makes sense, you don't want him too hungry or too tired to eat and keeping his milk feeds in place with help him be full and ready for his nap time

[mulvia]

Thanks creations, I will log things for a few days and get back to you about that.

Just looking at your EASY, it may be misguiding me about the times. Looks like he might be awake from 10 until 12.30pm so a 2hr 30 A time, is that right?
Can you tell me how he goes off to sleep, do you help him or does he self settle?  If he is an independent sleeper what method did you use to teach him to go to sleep alone?

Yes that was one of our recent days however the times of our EASY are not that consistent mainly due to the variable naps duration - only thing we manage 'on schedule' are the meals. Depending on previous nap length I may try to have him down again before the following feed to make up a bit of sleep time as he often starts rubbing his eyes and burying his face in my chest and being generally not very happy. Should I avoid this and just push him so he's not doing split naps? I have read somewhere that OT signs may actually be from a UT baby?
He needs help to go off to sleep (he's the little flailing arms guy you recently gave me advice for - only takes 10-15 min these days, but does not generally go to sleep completely on his own. We used shush/pat to start with, now I kind of just whisper and keep my hand on him (and try to keep his arms still when needed). He uses a paci as well which I am thinking to remove as I think it may be disrupting his night sleep sometimes.

With solids (or rather, purees his 11am feed has not been milk since a couple of weeks. I started introducing solids as I'm back to work next month and my DH will be home so he can do that. The pediatrician guidelines suggested it would replace one BF and my LO has taken to it quite well, also dropping one night feed (may be just coincidental of course). He does eat the full meal without us forcing him and gets a little water with that. I guess I should not revert back to BF now? I still offer him BF after if he wants it, usually he's looking for it after a couple of hours, I suppose for cuddling rather than hunger, and we have kept all his other BF meals the same. The main issue is, since the early nap comes early, sometimes his tired signs are at meal time so I am never sure if I should put him down then and delay the meal or not.

I will keep a diary the next few days and let you know. Thanks so much!

[creations]

OK, as a rough guide just for now whilst you are recording your EAS times I'd suggest if he does a short first nap to put down at 2hr 30 second A time. If he does a decent first nap then increase the second A time to 2hr 45.  I suspect he needs an increase on the first A time too but I know you are hesitant to change that one at this point so lets starts with the second A time.
I would stick to at least this and try not to encourage very brief napping. If E time is going to clash with S time either feed early or let him go to sleep at the correct time and he will likely wait until he wakes to eat.

I started introducing solids as I'm back to work next month and my DH will be home so he can do that. The pediatrician guidelines suggested it would replace one BF and my LO has taken to it quite well, also dropping one night feed (may be just coincidental of course). He does eat the full meal without us forcing him and gets a little water with that. I guess I should not revert back to BF now?

OK. Different countries have different guides. We usually don't recommend switching a milk for a solids feed but to do both. As you are going to be at work this seems to be the way forward for you as a family. Would he perhaps take a cup of expressed milk or formula when you are at work before/with/after the solids feed?

[mulvia]

Thanks! During the past couple of days I was actually already trying to add on 15 minutes A time even before the first nap, and today we reached 2 hrs and the nap was 1.15 so not bad! 

Would he perhaps take a cup of expressed milk or formula when you are at work before/with/after the solids feed?

Yes I think he would - his food philosophy seems to be 'if it's in front of me i'll eat it' 
Updates to come!

[mulvia]

Sorry one more question: once he wakes from a nap he's very hard to resettle, unless we jump in immediately and sometimes it works. Otherwise we try to let him play about a little to see if he goes back off, however he never does and when we go in to resettle him he's wide awake. So we end up getting him out of bed. We'll keep him up a bit and try again before feed time. If he does go off I'll wake him at feed time or a little later, and if he doesn't I'll keep the feed time. Now, after the feed do I keep him up just enough to separate the E from the S, or should I strive to the next 'scheduled' nap time? The first usually gives us another short nap, the second an OT baby. Thoughts? Thank you!!

[creations]

Whilst you establish a suitable routine I would not try to put him down unless it is a full A time (or very close to) to discourage a series of very short naps with A time between.  So it's fine to help resettle even if this means jumping in before he fully wakes to make it happen, but once he is fully awake and you have stopped trying to settle him and you have decided the nap is over then take him out of the room and run a full A time.  There needs to be a feed in there timed as close to the regular E time as you can, maybe a bit earlier if he didn't have a full nap because being awake tends to bring on hunger earlier.
If there is an E time which is going to clash with S then decide to either feed a bit early or for the feed to come a bit late (he won't notice if he is asleep) which ever looks like the best/nearest option. If you need to feed just before a nap because the times are close or about to clash then have 1 min A time between E and S.  If he falls to sleep feeding and you can't wake him tell him loudly and clearly, "I'm putting you in your bed now so you can sleep properly, sleep well, call if you need me" or something similar so he knows he is going to bed.

Hope this helps

[mulvia]

Hello!
Coming back with the past few days' EASY (sorry this is long)

19/12
W 7
E 7.30
A 8
S 9
A 10.15
E 11.30
A 12
S 12.30
A 13 - not resettling, kept him up until 14 then tried again to put him down until 15, no luck. Happy as soon as he's out of the room
E 15.30
A 16
S 16.30
A 17.30
Bedtime routine starts at 18
E 19.20
S 20
NW 1.30, tried to resettle, BF at 2 and back to sleep at 2.30, up again 5.30 back to sleep with dummy

20/12
W  7.15
E 7.30
A 8
S 9.15 - tried to let his self settle but went back in after 10 min, replaced paci and tucked him in, went right off
A 10, tried resettling until 10.30 then got him up. Went to grandparents for lunch (5 mins in car)
E 11.20
A 12
Tried to put him down at 12.30 for about 40 min, no luck so back to A (sitting with us at the table with chewy toy)
Top up BF at 13.50 then off to sleep with dummy (put down drowsy but awake)
A 14.10, wide awake
E 15.30 back home, falling asleep as he eats but wide awake as I put him in bed
S 17.30, 30 min to settle, lots of screaming
A 18, woke up crying, held him a little and started BT routine earlier
E 18.50
S 19.30, had to keep him still to make him settle
NW 23.30 (dummy), 1.30 (BF) 5.30 (tried to resettle but ended up giving a top up)

21/12
W 7
E 7.30
A 7.50
S 9
A 9.30 wide awake
E 11.30 + few minutes A (nappy change)
S 12 - resettled quickly 12.20, slept until 15!
E 15.20
A 15.40
17 looks very tired, did go down for CN but woke quite upset after 5 minutes and won't resettle so back to A
18.30 started T routine
S 19.20 - resettle after 10 min
NW 21.40 (dummy), 23, midnight, BF at 2

22/12
WU + E7.30
A 8
S 9.45
A 10.15
E 11.30
A 12
S 2.45
A 13.15 - went out, 15 min kip in the car and awake when we got home
Tried to put him down at 17, almost there but nothing
Start BT routine at 18.30
E 19
S 19.45
Slept until 2 then BF, usually takes one breast and back to sleep but took both and was fussying until 5

So the meal times are quite regular, WU and BT are usually around 7/7.30 (less EW these days!), but naps and NW are all over the shop. His second tooth popped out which hasn't helped. He is generally fighting the CN with all his strenght, but if he hasn't slept much earlier we try anyway. When settling or resettling we generally give up after about 30/45 min, and when we stop trying and get out of the room he's generally quite happy.

..waiting to hear your thoughts! 

[creations]

Looks like the first nap is always short?  I was under the impression you usually got a decent nap there which is why I mentioned some LOs prefer a shorter first A time.  As it seems that nap is generally short I'd suggest moving up in increments (not too slowly though) to a 3hr A time and using W2S to help with the transition for a few days.

He's fighting the CN so really you need to spread those naps out so that you don't end up with some very short A times and short naps with then some very long A times which are too long (looks like there is a 5hr+ A time there with the second short nap and a CN refusal)
so you would be aiming for something like this:
WU 7
A 3hr
S 10-11.30
A 3hr
S 2.30-4.00
A 3hr or a little less with EBT
BT 6.30/7.00

You can either move up in increments, 15 mins every 2 days or you can grit your teeth and just move to this routine, expect some difficulty if LO gets OT, help him, and get onto this more regular routine a bit faster.
A 2 nap routine will likely need a bit earlier a BT, it can seem early for a while until you all get used to it.

Here's the W2S info:
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
I think you were getting in to resettle before he fully woke anyway which is basically the same thing, this is just a planned W2S where you go in early with the readiness to help.  do it for 3 days, hold off day 4 to see if he transitions alone, if he does then fine you have success, if he doesn't then resettle if possible that day and continue W2S days 5,6,7 and hold off again to observe on day 8.

Hope this helps - and Merry Christmas x

[mulvia]

First of all thank you and Happy New Year! The first nap indeed used to be the best one (between 45 min and 1,5 hrs) - however the days i've recorded weren't good for that either. Since then we've had a few days of long morning naps without help (2 hrs!), but it's not consistent. It's like on some days he makes up for the sleep he doesn't have the rest of the time. When he wakes early from a nap (usually exactly 20 or 30 minutes) it's impossible to get him back to sleep. He's wide awake and ready to go, and can still manage a full A time (which we have extended to 2,5 - 3 hrs) - we haven't tried WTS yet but we will in the next few days. Since the second nap is still short most of the time, we are still trying to get him down for a CN in the late afternoon and he's done better with it lately.
We tried no nap and early BT, but that aways means EW in the morning so it throws everything off.
I'll let you know how we go with WTS...thanks again!

[creations]

Happy New Year to you too

Is your LO going to sleep independently after his wind down?  And usually he can transition on his own for the 2hr nap?
I would likely extend the A times to 3hrs rather than 2.5, it's not at all unusual at this age
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
The W2S can be really helpful to teach him to sleep longer but it is not likely to help if he is UT (under tired) for his nap.  When you first extend an A time there might be some OT signs but this is also normal whilst they settle into the new time, and W2S can be helpful to get through the adjustment days.

You might find that cutting the CN and giving a normal BT (say 2.5 to 3hr A time or a full 3hrs if you think he is ok with that) will give EWs for a few days but might overall improve the routine as he will work out the extra nap has gone and be more inclined to sleep well at the other 2 naps and at night.  It's not really something that always 'solves' overnight but takes several days to a week to see the changes.