4 month old trouble with A time

[Azurose]

My 4 month old daughter still has short awake times which I guess is creating short naps. She had been taking 30 minute naps every 1.5 hours but yesterday due to visits from family she was kept awake 2 full hours before finally falling to sleep. But because she was so overtired her Nap was even shorter than usual and after that she stayed awake an extra 2 hours  even with me trying to help he lr sleep and had an 18 minute nap... her night sleep suffered from how little she napped and it upset me that I didn't do more to help her nap.

 She is able to self settle if I give her the time to. But should I consider allowing her to stay awake 2 hours then assisting her sleep a longer stretchs by holding her and using a pacifier to try and help her learn to lengthen naps? But would the reintroduction to the crib later change everything I already helped her learn do far?

She just woke from a nap but went back to sleep after 10 minutes then woke again after 8 but isn't calling for me and she keeps yawning. Shes been sleeping for an hour prior to this should I leave her be or get her?

[Bella89]

Hi Azurose,
yes, it looks to me like she is having A times not long enough to make her tired and take a solid nap. Please, look at this post to campare it to averages:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

I would love to see your EASY routine, so a given day written like that: 7:00WU and feed, 7:20-9:00 A time, 9:00-9:30 nap...
Also, what is your going to bed routine? I.e. go into the nursery, change diaper, close curtains, lay in the crib, sing, put the pacifier in...
Do you use the paci or is she ok with nothing at all?

Your goal is to set up her routine so she would take longer naps 1.5-2h by herself. You can d that by SLOWLY increasing her A times, lets say by 15 min every 3-4 days. Jumping from 1.5h to 2 right away can make her over tired (OT) and you will have sleep issues all night. Set up your plan.

About holding her and pacifier to extend her naps. I would personally not do it. You don't want to introduce another props, because you do not want to go back only forward. You then have another issues to solve. I wouldn't go to her and take her out of the crib if she is not crying. Maybe she is ok with lying down and just some quiet time. Some parents count that time as half the time for nap time i.e. 30 min low key time would be 15 min nap.Does she cry when she wakes up?

Please, do not feel guilty of not helping her with extending naps. There is always so much we can do and no more. Ultimately, you will help your LO by giving her a great plan for the day!

I am here if you need anything. I hope it helps a little:)

[Azurose]

Im so sorry it took this long to respond, today was not a very good day. I always beat myself up over stuff concerning my daughter, especially if I feel I am somehow doing something wrong and it negatively effects her. I am a little ball of stress lol thank you so very much for your help!

That's what I thought was wrong though. It's so hard to tell when she's tired now and it threw me off. Especially since overstimulation looks very similar to what her tired signs once were. She used to become disinterested in stuff and yawn when tired but now she doesn't yawn at all outside of the crib.

With the A times does her time it take to go to sleep count towards the recommended amount as in i should lay her down 15 minutes prior to the recommended time? Not at the time itself?

Sorry it's a bit scattered and I already erased the feeds to make room but I kinda got her on a 4 hour between feeds and fed 6-7 ounces. Though with her short naps sometimes I have to feed less, early.

My nap routine is where I put her in a sleepsack turn off the lights and hold her against my shoulder and rub her back for a minute or two. Is that too short? I also try not to do too much with her 10-15 minutes before I let her Nap. For bed I give her a bottle 30 mins before I start the routine. I bathe her and put her in Jammies then I brush her hair and rock and sing to her then put her to bed awake continuing singing to let her know I'm there while she gets herself drowsy.

The pacifier I pretty well stopped using. I only use it for if she gets overstimulated or overtired. I think she is a touchy baby, a lot seems accurate including needing to suck a lot. She is able to go to sleep without it though if I get her in bed in time.

She's been chewing on her fist and fingers a lot lately I'm not sure iF it's for comfort from being overstimulated or if she is teething or getting sick even.

When she wakes unless she had a short nap due to ot she doesn't really cry often. She only cries when overstimulated, hungry or over the top ot. She's grumpy a lot of the time though, im guessing it's from being constantly ot.



Sorry if its confusing, this is how I watch her awake times trying to time it right. I lay her down once at 1 hour and 22 mins then she went to sleep after 13 mins does that mean her A time is only 1 hour and 35 minutes?

(12/17/15)
Am wake feed 620.    nap 740 wake 940.     nap 1115 wake. 1145      nap 135 wake 202     nap 400 wake 428.     sleep 605 wake 635pm wake to eat 300

(12/16/15)
Am wake feed 630.   nap 800wake 900 renap 930 wake 1020.       nap 1152 wake 1227.       nap 140 wake.    250 nap 423 wake 500.     night sleep 735 wake 810 wake 1200 wake 400

(12/15/15)
Am wake feed 620.   nap 738 wake.   800 nap 936 wake.  1000 nap 1147 wake.   1212 nap 252 wake.   324 nap 410 wake.500.    routine 630 bath, jammies, brush hair, rock, sing, sleep 720 wake 300

[Bella89]

With the A times does her time it take to go to sleep count towards the recommended amount as in i should lay her down 15 minutes prior to the recommended time? Not at the time itself?

A time, although goes after E in EASY, i always counted from when DS opens his eyes to when he closes them. We don't count the time it takes to fall asleep to the nap time, so try to put her down for naps 10-15 early if you know this is how much time she needs.

Sorry if its confusing, this is how I watch her awake times trying to time it right. I lay her down once at 1 hour and 22 mins then she went to sleep after 13 mins does that mean her A time is only 1 hour and 35 minutes?

YES, your A times are too short for her age. If you will be able to extend it a little, you will get to less, but longer naps plus longer NS.

One more question,she is FF right? If so, 6-7 oz is perfect for hed feed, if you feel like she is hungry, after short nap, but she ate only 3-4oz she wasn't really hungry. We have to be careful not to make her a snacker. She would then insist on many small portions, but it obviously is a drag for a parent. Please, read the following suggestions about increasing time between feeds:
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
Does it sound familiar or doable?

If she is not crying when waking up from nap, I would leave her be and not come into the room until she really calls you. That was always my technique, and caused my DS to learn when he needs me and when he is fine by himself.

I don't have much time now, because of Christmas and stuff, so when I do have more I will write more about your settling method.
In the meantime, try increasing her A times by 15 min every 3-4 days and keep me posted.I will try this for 2 days:
630 WU and feed
800-930 or 10 NAP1
1000 feed and A
11:30 nap till 1230 ? It all depends here NAP2
100 feed and A
230-400  NAP3
4:30 feed and A
6:00 start your routine to bed (here it also depends if bath is soothing or waking her, if the other start it sooner)

As you can see you have 3 naps now. What will happen is, the naps will be longer and after 3-4 days she will go to sleep easier. She will probably start WU at 7ish when your BT will shift to 7pm.
Does that sound like you can do that?

Then after 3-4 days, not sooner. Most likely the day will start closer to 7.
630 WU and feed
815-945 or 10 NAP1
1015 feed and A
11:45 nap till 1245 It all depends here NAP2
115 feed and A
245-415  NAP3
4:45 feed and A
6:15 start your routine to bed (here it also depends if bath is soothing or waking her, if the other start it sooner)

Let me know what you think:)

[Bella89]

Im so sorry it took this long to respond, today was not a very good day. I always beat myself up over stuff concerning my daughter, especially if I feel I am somehow doing something wrong and it negatively effects her. I am a little ball of stress lol thank you so very much for your help!

I forgot to comment on that, and it was the most important!! 
Believe it or not, but it is what makes us very similar. Even in my live I was always overambitious, and now it got worse. It scares me that I can fail as a parent, because it is someones life I am shaping, but you know what... I made a deal with myself:
I will give my baby food so he can survive, I will change his diapers so he looks and smells similar to what a human looks like and I will give him time and place to sleep. Anything that exceeds his survival basal needs makes me a supermama!!
This is how you should think about it. We can't think and do everything, and I know other mamas can bring you down sometimes (it was like that with me), by making you think they do other things better or more than you do. But it is simply not true.
You do everything the best you can and that makes you the best mama for your little one
Remember a happy mama is a happy baby

[Azurose]

That is exactly how I feel, over ambitious and hefting a lot of responsibility by shaping a little person's life. you put it into words very accurately. By the way, thank you very much for taking the time to help me out.

She did well today, her first nap was 2 hours long. I think she may be waking earlier than I suspected though and just playing quietly. That may be why she gets tired so quickly in the morning. Her second nap was only 30 minutes still but she was awake a little longer, may take a bit to adjust. Tomorrow is shots and I think she is teething again too so that I hope doesn't make problems, thank you for the custom EASY schedule I will definiely continue this! ^_^ thank you again!

[Bella89]

Not a problem:)
I am sure things will only get better!
Teething is no fun. It always messes everything up - eating, sleep. She does teeth early. Our first tooth was at 8 months. She is definitely not wasting time for growing up
Keep me posted.

[Azurose]

Okay here's what we got so far. A bit better I would say She has 4 little white bumps on her gums on the bottom jaw. Rather unusual, she chews hard and lunges for a teething toy or your finger when you go to give it to her and she seems fussy and drooly so I guess that's what it is. I don't think she's supposed to get an actual tooth for a long while though right?

For mornings is it ok for her to stay awake for such a short time? Does it mean I should let her sleep longer than 7 or that I should work on extending her first wake time? 

(12/24/15)
Wake 707 lay at 740 due to fussing nap 812  wake 940 should not have got up? Lay at 1100 nap 1116 wake 1200 renap 1206 that's all so far

(12/23/15)
wake 715.   fussy yawning lay at 745 light crying then chewed on fingers wondering it fussy from pain and not tired as I assumed napped at 820 wake. 1005     lay at 1133 fussy then quiet nap 1152 didn't need a paci this time woke at 146.  Lay at 330 nap 345? wake 420? Was visiting family no monitor and no crying. sleep 732 wake 335 then put self back to sleep
 
(12/22/15)
Wake ? nap 905wake 1002 woke crying comforted renap 1015 wake. 1100      lay down at 1237 nap 1248 wake 126 give paci renap 140 wake 245    Lay at 425 nap 437 wake 510 630 routine   sleep 710. Wake 420 may be habit that's when u used to feed her but I dreamfeed at 10pm now

[Bella89]

Hi, so sorry I didn't write to you sooner. Got caught up with Christmas stuff
First, find out what day works for your family the best 7-7 schedule or maybe (like for us) 8-8. Also, it depends on your chores if you need to always get up at 7 and wake the baby or leave her be. I personally don't wake up DS NEVER in the morning Like today, I enjoyed his 8:30 WU and got my 30 min more than usual.

Your goal here, is to work on longer A time in the morning. like 12/23 she woke up 715 and lays down 745, right? That is too short. It encourages nap fighting, waking (when you have to resettle her) and short naps. I got a sense that maybe she doesn't get a clear sign that it's time to start a day, like "Hey, It's a beautiful day, let's wash up and get dressed!!". Do you think I might be right? If she knows that she can rest all the time whenever  she wants there is no line between sleep and play time. She might be confused about it too.
Sometimes when my DS yawns in the morning I ignore it as he is still sleepy from the night and can't get his morning coffee like I do I would wait until she clearly is tired, but I am sure you know best:)

Yeah, we had these white bumps for 4 months, so there might not be a sign for quick teething, but also, noone knows when teething starts to be painful, maybe it's now:/

So 12/22 did she eat at all in the morning, like 7? 1,5-2h naps are fine. If it goes like 45-1 I would consider it not timed right, because she clearly naps well when she wants:)
Resettling is fine, if you feel like she is still sleepy and wants some more sleep. Do not fight with her being playful

Yes, 12/22 seems way better!! congrats on that!!
Work on it being more like that:
7:10 WU
9-11 naps (she naps well here, so 2h should work if she will not get hungry)
11 eat
1-2:30 nap2 she did good here as well
4:30-5:30 nap3 (and here bad news come in, I know my DS so, I would have to wake him up 5:30 because he would fight BT, other kids may be ok will sleep till 6, you will know better what works for you:) I hated waking DS up:/

Let me know if I can help some more.
I think I got everything
Merry Christmas!!

[Azurose]

That is fine, I completely understand. merry Christmas to you too!

I am not am early bird, I was wondering if 8-8 would be the same so thank you for letting me know. That sounds much more appealing I hate waking her up too, now I know I don't have to in the morning, that is great.

Yes I lay her down way too early in the morning. She actually falls asleep almost 30 minutes later. As I hold her she gets fussy so I think she is tired and put her to bed where she sits quietly. I'm having trouble telling when shes tired anymore beyond full blown crying. Maybe I should try and distract her for longer?

I have no idea about the teething, not a clue lol she often has her hand or fingers in her mouth and chewing on them but could it be just a calming thing or something?

Yes every morning she eats at 7. Yes when she is still tired she will be trying to resettle herself by clasping her hands above her head and covering her eyes. That is usually a good indicator.

I often wake her at 5:00 and keep her bedtime 2 hours from there, the 6:30 was reminding me when to begin my bt routine lol

Oh, also i was wondering what you do for your wind down routine for naps and bed? What I do doesn't quite seem to get her relaxed enough.

[Bella89]

Of course, 8-8 is fine. 7-8 is fine. 8-9 is fine. Whatever works for her and your family as whole. My son needen only 11h of night sleep until he was on 1 nap/day. Now he needs 12. But on the other hand there are some sleepy heads that need even 13, so remember.Observe your baby and learn what she needs. 7-7 schedule that tracy suggested is just a guideline, and it's the most common among kids, but you can make it whatever works. It's not a strict schedule. It's more of a way of sayine that kids do better if they have time to play and get tired, get hungry. Then they will eat and sleep better:)

That being said, there is a chance that if you won't wake her up in the morning, when she will WU by herself she will be well rested and have longer A time in the morning

About putting her down for her first nap... your ultimate goal is to have to longest A time in the morning which totally makes sense because LO is well rested after the night. It's like you when you want your afternoon nap because you got tired a little, but would not take it in the morning as you still have power from the night sleep:) Try pushing that first A time and you will see after a week or two that it makes more sense. Unfortunately, it takes time to notice the difference:/ Distract her with a book, a toy, going around the house, show her how to do laundry or play some music.This is how I fought for extending A times.

Teething takes time. You will know with later teeth how long it takes.I thought my DS was teething at 3 months, but in the matter of fact he had his first teeth at 8 months. By that example- I am no expert. Drooling and hands in their mounth start early. It's also a matter of coordination:)

Our routine at that age was:
1. Go into the nursery
2. Change diaper
3. Say goodbye to chickens, cats, sun and cars (we have a good view of the farm)
4. Close curtains
5. Sit in a chair, put a paci in, sing and hold DS for 1 lullaby
6. Put him in a crib (but he was not asleep by then)
7. Rub his cheek 2-3 times
8. Say " I love you, good night baby. We'll play when you'll get up"
9. Leave the room

But I was very lucky. My DS was a textbook baby and I knew my presence in the room was distracting to him. I had to leave. Other kids need mommy until they drift off. Now, at 11 months it's the same, but I don't hold him anymore. So everything without point 5:)

Your routine can take 5-15 min. Some kids need more, some less.

I took that quiz, and it helped me understand what my baby wanted:
The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

I hope you don't mind me talking so much about how I did it, but It's easier for me to show you example:)
Keep me posted about your days:)

[Azurose]

It seems she may need only 11h too of night sleep considering she wakes more frequently at 6am. Maybe scooting her bed to 8 would make her wake later.

She loves walking around with me and we talk about stuff we see usually that stumps her being tired.

Yes I was reading about the wonder weeks and it said week 19 they get cranky and suck on their fists a lot among other things. It's not actually teething I guess. Her sleep has gone bad again recently, but today she did again have a good almost 2 hour nap. She just screamed forever at night when she usually sleeps pretty good. She wouldn't stop until I have her her paci, then later she spit it out and went back to sleep. She usually doesn't cry so hard and long, i worry that something iS wring but when i pick her up or give her her paci she is fine. I guess she just needs extra comfort now? It was odd though she went to bed after a few minutes of softer cries then she woke 30 mins later bawling.

No, thank you for giving me an example it helps a lot   I think she is a touchy baby, easily has breakdowns from sensory overloads. That one seems like the most accurate depiction.

[Bella89]

It seems she may need only 11h too of night sleep considering she wakes more frequently at 6am. Maybe scooting her bed to 8 would make her wake later.

Yes, but you have to be careful. It doesn't always work that way. Sometimes pushing BT to 8 can cause OT and she will wake at 5;] Watch her closely!

About the wonder weeks.. oh yes, we had so much fun with these special moments;] It is ok to give her comfort, your presence if she likes it. But you have to be careful and not to make her used to these comfort things i.e. maybe she will catch that you can hold her to sleep every night!:) That's a trap!!!!!!! hahah What I am trying to say is, be there for her, but keep in the back of your head that she will like certain things and get use to them.

How do you go about paci? DO you use it every time or when she cries? For sleep or calming her down?

[Azurose]

I haven't tried pushing her bedtime yet because she does fall asleep so easily at 7. But lately I guess because of the wonder week she goes to sleep at 7 but wakes 30 minutes later and has trouble falling back to sleep until an hour or more passes. I usually leave her be until she starts crying hard which I then rub her head and comforthe her by shushing to which she usually calms and goes to sleep or at least doesnt cry as hard. She has been waking frequently at night for a few nights now like at 3  5. And 6 it takes her a while to settle. I don't usually take her out of bed, I don't want to create a new bad habit as you said. Is it ok to let her fuss for a while and get bad sleep? Should I somehow better help her sleep?

The paci I don't use during just regular fusing or crying. I use it when she is screaming OT or to help her sleep when we are shopping. I put her in bed without it to let her fall asleep on her own then try to lengthen a nap if its short and give it to her but that hasn't been working lately so I probably won't do it any longer. Is it ok to use when shes OT or extremely upswt to sleep?

Sorry for all of the questions, thank you for helping anyways

[Bella89]

Yes, yes and yes
As you said. Even if it takes her a while, but she doesn't cry and can fall asleep after a while on her own - it's fine to let her fall back asleep on her own. I would even say yay :p
That's a good idea - if she doesn't need paci why use it, right? but if it helps her calm down when she fusses - I don't see why you would not help her with that. But it's up to you, to be honest. My DS is 11 months and I think we overuse the pacifier since he started replugging on his own at night. I would get rid of it with a heartbeat, but he just got used to it so much and he sleeps so well with it. I am questioning that lately myself actually. If it's ok to use it only for sleep at that age... I am leaning towards"ok" more I think.

I don't mind questions at all! I just hope I help you just a little