4 month old trouble with A time

[Azurose]

My 4 month old daughter still has short awake times which I guess is creating short naps. She had been taking 30 minute naps every 1.5 hours but yesterday due to visits from family she was kept awake 2 full hours before finally falling to sleep. But because she was so overtired her Nap was even shorter than usual and after that she stayed awake an extra 2 hours  even with me trying to help he lr sleep and had an 18 minute nap... her night sleep suffered from how little she napped and it upset me that I didn't do more to help her nap.

 She is able to self settle if I give her the time to. But should I consider allowing her to stay awake 2 hours then assisting her sleep a longer stretchs by holding her and using a pacifier to try and help her learn to lengthen naps? But would the reintroduction to the crib later change everything I already helped her learn do far?

She just woke from a nap but went back to sleep after 10 minutes then woke again after 8 but isn't calling for me and she keeps yawning. Shes been sleeping for an hour prior to this should I leave her be or get her?

[Bella89]

Hi Azurose,
yes, it looks to me like she is having A times not long enough to make her tired and take a solid nap. Please, look at this post to campare it to averages:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

I would love to see your EASY routine, so a given day written like that: 7:00WU and feed, 7:20-9:00 A time, 9:00-9:30 nap...
Also, what is your going to bed routine? I.e. go into the nursery, change diaper, close curtains, lay in the crib, sing, put the pacifier in...
Do you use the paci or is she ok with nothing at all?

Your goal is to set up her routine so she would take longer naps 1.5-2h by herself. You can d that by SLOWLY increasing her A times, lets say by 15 min every 3-4 days. Jumping from 1.5h to 2 right away can make her over tired (OT) and you will have sleep issues all night. Set up your plan.

About holding her and pacifier to extend her naps. I would personally not do it. You don't want to introduce another props, because you do not want to go back only forward. You then have another issues to solve. I wouldn't go to her and take her out of the crib if she is not crying. Maybe she is ok with lying down and just some quiet time. Some parents count that time as half the time for nap time i.e. 30 min low key time would be 15 min nap.Does she cry when she wakes up?

Please, do not feel guilty of not helping her with extending naps. There is always so much we can do and no more. Ultimately, you will help your LO by giving her a great plan for the day!

I am here if you need anything. I hope it helps a little:)

[Azurose]

Im so sorry it took this long to respond, today was not a very good day. I always beat myself up over stuff concerning my daughter, especially if I feel I am somehow doing something wrong and it negatively effects her. I am a little ball of stress lol thank you so very much for your help!

That's what I thought was wrong though. It's so hard to tell when she's tired now and it threw me off. Especially since overstimulation looks very similar to what her tired signs once were. She used to become disinterested in stuff and yawn when tired but now she doesn't yawn at all outside of the crib.

With the A times does her time it take to go to sleep count towards the recommended amount as in i should lay her down 15 minutes prior to the recommended time? Not at the time itself?

Sorry it's a bit scattered and I already erased the feeds to make room but I kinda got her on a 4 hour between feeds and fed 6-7 ounces. Though with her short naps sometimes I have to feed less, early.

My nap routine is where I put her in a sleepsack turn off the lights and hold her against my shoulder and rub her back for a minute or two. Is that too short? I also try not to do too much with her 10-15 minutes before I let her Nap. For bed I give her a bottle 30 mins before I start the routine. I bathe her and put her in Jammies then I brush her hair and rock and sing to her then put her to bed awake continuing singing to let her know I'm there while she gets herself drowsy.

The pacifier I pretty well stopped using. I only use it for if she gets overstimulated or overtired. I think she is a touchy baby, a lot seems accurate including needing to suck a lot. She is able to go to sleep without it though if I get her in bed in time.

She's been chewing on her fist and fingers a lot lately I'm not sure iF it's for comfort from being overstimulated or if she is teething or getting sick even.

When she wakes unless she had a short nap due to ot she doesn't really cry often. She only cries when overstimulated, hungry or over the top ot. She's grumpy a lot of the time though, im guessing it's from being constantly ot.



Sorry if its confusing, this is how I watch her awake times trying to time it right. I lay her down once at 1 hour and 22 mins then she went to sleep after 13 mins does that mean her A time is only 1 hour and 35 minutes?

(12/17/15)
Am wake feed 620.    nap 740 wake 940.     nap 1115 wake. 1145      nap 135 wake 202     nap 400 wake 428.     sleep 605 wake 635pm wake to eat 300

(12/16/15)
Am wake feed 630.   nap 800wake 900 renap 930 wake 1020.       nap 1152 wake 1227.       nap 140 wake.    250 nap 423 wake 500.     night sleep 735 wake 810 wake 1200 wake 400

(12/15/15)
Am wake feed 620.   nap 738 wake.   800 nap 936 wake.  1000 nap 1147 wake.   1212 nap 252 wake.   324 nap 410 wake.500.    routine 630 bath, jammies, brush hair, rock, sing, sleep 720 wake 300

[Bella89]

With the A times does her time it take to go to sleep count towards the recommended amount as in i should lay her down 15 minutes prior to the recommended time? Not at the time itself?

A time, although goes after E in EASY, i always counted from when DS opens his eyes to when he closes them. We don't count the time it takes to fall asleep to the nap time, so try to put her down for naps 10-15 early if you know this is how much time she needs.

Sorry if its confusing, this is how I watch her awake times trying to time it right. I lay her down once at 1 hour and 22 mins then she went to sleep after 13 mins does that mean her A time is only 1 hour and 35 minutes?

YES, your A times are too short for her age. If you will be able to extend it a little, you will get to less, but longer naps plus longer NS.

One more question,she is FF right? If so, 6-7 oz is perfect for hed feed, if you feel like she is hungry, after short nap, but she ate only 3-4oz she wasn't really hungry. We have to be careful not to make her a snacker. She would then insist on many small portions, but it obviously is a drag for a parent. Please, read the following suggestions about increasing time between feeds:
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
Does it sound familiar or doable?

If she is not crying when waking up from nap, I would leave her be and not come into the room until she really calls you. That was always my technique, and caused my DS to learn when he needs me and when he is fine by himself.

I don't have much time now, because of Christmas and stuff, so when I do have more I will write more about your settling method.
In the meantime, try increasing her A times by 15 min every 3-4 days and keep me posted.I will try this for 2 days:
630 WU and feed
800-930 or 10 NAP1
1000 feed and A
11:30 nap till 1230 ? It all depends here NAP2
100 feed and A
230-400  NAP3
4:30 feed and A
6:00 start your routine to bed (here it also depends if bath is soothing or waking her, if the other start it sooner)

As you can see you have 3 naps now. What will happen is, the naps will be longer and after 3-4 days she will go to sleep easier. She will probably start WU at 7ish when your BT will shift to 7pm.
Does that sound like you can do that?

Then after 3-4 days, not sooner. Most likely the day will start closer to 7.
630 WU and feed
815-945 or 10 NAP1
1015 feed and A
11:45 nap till 1245 It all depends here NAP2
115 feed and A
245-415  NAP3
4:45 feed and A
6:15 start your routine to bed (here it also depends if bath is soothing or waking her, if the other start it sooner)

Let me know what you think:)

[Bella89]

Im so sorry it took this long to respond, today was not a very good day. I always beat myself up over stuff concerning my daughter, especially if I feel I am somehow doing something wrong and it negatively effects her. I am a little ball of stress lol thank you so very much for your help!

I forgot to comment on that, and it was the most important!! 
Believe it or not, but it is what makes us very similar. Even in my live I was always overambitious, and now it got worse. It scares me that I can fail as a parent, because it is someones life I am shaping, but you know what... I made a deal with myself:
I will give my baby food so he can survive, I will change his diapers so he looks and smells similar to what a human looks like and I will give him time and place to sleep. Anything that exceeds his survival basal needs makes me a supermama!!
This is how you should think about it. We can't think and do everything, and I know other mamas can bring you down sometimes (it was like that with me), by making you think they do other things better or more than you do. But it is simply not true.
You do everything the best you can and that makes you the best mama for your little one
Remember a happy mama is a happy baby

[Azurose]

That is exactly how I feel, over ambitious and hefting a lot of responsibility by shaping a little person's life. you put it into words very accurately. By the way, thank you very much for taking the time to help me out.

She did well today, her first nap was 2 hours long. I think she may be waking earlier than I suspected though and just playing quietly. That may be why she gets tired so quickly in the morning. Her second nap was only 30 minutes still but she was awake a little longer, may take a bit to adjust. Tomorrow is shots and I think she is teething again too so that I hope doesn't make problems, thank you for the custom EASY schedule I will definiely continue this! ^_^ thank you again!

[Bella89]

Not a problem:)
I am sure things will only get better!
Teething is no fun. It always messes everything up - eating, sleep. She does teeth early. Our first tooth was at 8 months. She is definitely not wasting time for growing up
Keep me posted.

[Azurose]

Okay here's what we got so far. A bit better I would say She has 4 little white bumps on her gums on the bottom jaw. Rather unusual, she chews hard and lunges for a teething toy or your finger when you go to give it to her and she seems fussy and drooly so I guess that's what it is. I don't think she's supposed to get an actual tooth for a long while though right?

For mornings is it ok for her to stay awake for such a short time? Does it mean I should let her sleep longer than 7 or that I should work on extending her first wake time? 

(12/24/15)
Wake 707 lay at 740 due to fussing nap 812  wake 940 should not have got up? Lay at 1100 nap 1116 wake 1200 renap 1206 that's all so far

(12/23/15)
wake 715.   fussy yawning lay at 745 light crying then chewed on fingers wondering it fussy from pain and not tired as I assumed napped at 820 wake. 1005     lay at 1133 fussy then quiet nap 1152 didn't need a paci this time woke at 146.  Lay at 330 nap 345? wake 420? Was visiting family no monitor and no crying. sleep 732 wake 335 then put self back to sleep
 
(12/22/15)
Wake ? nap 905wake 1002 woke crying comforted renap 1015 wake. 1100      lay down at 1237 nap 1248 wake 126 give paci renap 140 wake 245    Lay at 425 nap 437 wake 510 630 routine   sleep 710. Wake 420 may be habit that's when u used to feed her but I dreamfeed at 10pm now

[Bella89]

Hi, so sorry I didn't write to you sooner. Got caught up with Christmas stuff
First, find out what day works for your family the best 7-7 schedule or maybe (like for us) 8-8. Also, it depends on your chores if you need to always get up at 7 and wake the baby or leave her be. I personally don't wake up DS NEVER in the morning Like today, I enjoyed his 8:30 WU and got my 30 min more than usual.

Your goal here, is to work on longer A time in the morning. like 12/23 she woke up 715 and lays down 745, right? That is too short. It encourages nap fighting, waking (when you have to resettle her) and short naps. I got a sense that maybe she doesn't get a clear sign that it's time to start a day, like "Hey, It's a beautiful day, let's wash up and get dressed!!". Do you think I might be right? If she knows that she can rest all the time whenever  she wants there is no line between sleep and play time. She might be confused about it too.
Sometimes when my DS yawns in the morning I ignore it as he is still sleepy from the night and can't get his morning coffee like I do I would wait until she clearly is tired, but I am sure you know best:)

Yeah, we had these white bumps for 4 months, so there might not be a sign for quick teething, but also, noone knows when teething starts to be painful, maybe it's now:/

So 12/22 did she eat at all in the morning, like 7? 1,5-2h naps are fine. If it goes like 45-1 I would consider it not timed right, because she clearly naps well when she wants:)
Resettling is fine, if you feel like she is still sleepy and wants some more sleep. Do not fight with her being playful

Yes, 12/22 seems way better!! congrats on that!!
Work on it being more like that:
7:10 WU
9-11 naps (she naps well here, so 2h should work if she will not get hungry)
11 eat
1-2:30 nap2 she did good here as well
4:30-5:30 nap3 (and here bad news come in, I know my DS so, I would have to wake him up 5:30 because he would fight BT, other kids may be ok will sleep till 6, you will know better what works for you:) I hated waking DS up:/

Let me know if I can help some more.
I think I got everything
Merry Christmas!!

[Azurose]

That is fine, I completely understand. merry Christmas to you too!

I am not am early bird, I was wondering if 8-8 would be the same so thank you for letting me know. That sounds much more appealing I hate waking her up too, now I know I don't have to in the morning, that is great.

Yes I lay her down way too early in the morning. She actually falls asleep almost 30 minutes later. As I hold her she gets fussy so I think she is tired and put her to bed where she sits quietly. I'm having trouble telling when shes tired anymore beyond full blown crying. Maybe I should try and distract her for longer?

I have no idea about the teething, not a clue lol she often has her hand or fingers in her mouth and chewing on them but could it be just a calming thing or something?

Yes every morning she eats at 7. Yes when she is still tired she will be trying to resettle herself by clasping her hands above her head and covering her eyes. That is usually a good indicator.

I often wake her at 5:00 and keep her bedtime 2 hours from there, the 6:30 was reminding me when to begin my bt routine lol

Oh, also i was wondering what you do for your wind down routine for naps and bed? What I do doesn't quite seem to get her relaxed enough.

[Bella89]

Of course, 8-8 is fine. 7-8 is fine. 8-9 is fine. Whatever works for her and your family as whole. My son needen only 11h of night sleep until he was on 1 nap/day. Now he needs 12. But on the other hand there are some sleepy heads that need even 13, so remember.Observe your baby and learn what she needs. 7-7 schedule that tracy suggested is just a guideline, and it's the most common among kids, but you can make it whatever works. It's not a strict schedule. It's more of a way of sayine that kids do better if they have time to play and get tired, get hungry. Then they will eat and sleep better:)

That being said, there is a chance that if you won't wake her up in the morning, when she will WU by herself she will be well rested and have longer A time in the morning

About putting her down for her first nap... your ultimate goal is to have to longest A time in the morning which totally makes sense because LO is well rested after the night. It's like you when you want your afternoon nap because you got tired a little, but would not take it in the morning as you still have power from the night sleep:) Try pushing that first A time and you will see after a week or two that it makes more sense. Unfortunately, it takes time to notice the difference:/ Distract her with a book, a toy, going around the house, show her how to do laundry or play some music.This is how I fought for extending A times.

Teething takes time. You will know with later teeth how long it takes.I thought my DS was teething at 3 months, but in the matter of fact he had his first teeth at 8 months. By that example- I am no expert. Drooling and hands in their mounth start early. It's also a matter of coordination:)

Our routine at that age was:
1. Go into the nursery
2. Change diaper
3. Say goodbye to chickens, cats, sun and cars (we have a good view of the farm)
4. Close curtains
5. Sit in a chair, put a paci in, sing and hold DS for 1 lullaby
6. Put him in a crib (but he was not asleep by then)
7. Rub his cheek 2-3 times
8. Say " I love you, good night baby. We'll play when you'll get up"
9. Leave the room

But I was very lucky. My DS was a textbook baby and I knew my presence in the room was distracting to him. I had to leave. Other kids need mommy until they drift off. Now, at 11 months it's the same, but I don't hold him anymore. So everything without point 5:)

Your routine can take 5-15 min. Some kids need more, some less.

I took that quiz, and it helped me understand what my baby wanted:
The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

I hope you don't mind me talking so much about how I did it, but It's easier for me to show you example:)
Keep me posted about your days:)

[Azurose]

It seems she may need only 11h too of night sleep considering she wakes more frequently at 6am. Maybe scooting her bed to 8 would make her wake later.

She loves walking around with me and we talk about stuff we see usually that stumps her being tired.

Yes I was reading about the wonder weeks and it said week 19 they get cranky and suck on their fists a lot among other things. It's not actually teething I guess. Her sleep has gone bad again recently, but today she did again have a good almost 2 hour nap. She just screamed forever at night when she usually sleeps pretty good. She wouldn't stop until I have her her paci, then later she spit it out and went back to sleep. She usually doesn't cry so hard and long, i worry that something iS wring but when i pick her up or give her her paci she is fine. I guess she just needs extra comfort now? It was odd though she went to bed after a few minutes of softer cries then she woke 30 mins later bawling.

No, thank you for giving me an example it helps a lot   I think she is a touchy baby, easily has breakdowns from sensory overloads. That one seems like the most accurate depiction.

[Bella89]

It seems she may need only 11h too of night sleep considering she wakes more frequently at 6am. Maybe scooting her bed to 8 would make her wake later.

Yes, but you have to be careful. It doesn't always work that way. Sometimes pushing BT to 8 can cause OT and she will wake at 5;] Watch her closely!

About the wonder weeks.. oh yes, we had so much fun with these special moments;] It is ok to give her comfort, your presence if she likes it. But you have to be careful and not to make her used to these comfort things i.e. maybe she will catch that you can hold her to sleep every night!:) That's a trap!!!!!!! hahah What I am trying to say is, be there for her, but keep in the back of your head that she will like certain things and get use to them.

How do you go about paci? DO you use it every time or when she cries? For sleep or calming her down?

[Azurose]

I haven't tried pushing her bedtime yet because she does fall asleep so easily at 7. But lately I guess because of the wonder week she goes to sleep at 7 but wakes 30 minutes later and has trouble falling back to sleep until an hour or more passes. I usually leave her be until she starts crying hard which I then rub her head and comforthe her by shushing to which she usually calms and goes to sleep or at least doesnt cry as hard. She has been waking frequently at night for a few nights now like at 3  5. And 6 it takes her a while to settle. I don't usually take her out of bed, I don't want to create a new bad habit as you said. Is it ok to let her fuss for a while and get bad sleep? Should I somehow better help her sleep?

The paci I don't use during just regular fusing or crying. I use it when she is screaming OT or to help her sleep when we are shopping. I put her in bed without it to let her fall asleep on her own then try to lengthen a nap if its short and give it to her but that hasn't been working lately so I probably won't do it any longer. Is it ok to use when shes OT or extremely upswt to sleep?

Sorry for all of the questions, thank you for helping anyways

[Bella89]

Yes, yes and yes
As you said. Even if it takes her a while, but she doesn't cry and can fall asleep after a while on her own - it's fine to let her fall back asleep on her own. I would even say yay :p
That's a good idea - if she doesn't need paci why use it, right? but if it helps her calm down when she fusses - I don't see why you would not help her with that. But it's up to you, to be honest. My DS is 11 months and I think we overuse the pacifier since he started replugging on his own at night. I would get rid of it with a heartbeat, but he just got used to it so much and he sleeps so well with it. I am questioning that lately myself actually. If it's ok to use it only for sleep at that age... I am leaning towards"ok" more I think.

I don't mind questions at all! I just hope I help you just a little

[Azurose]

I wish she could replug the paci now, I had to try and help her along with falling asleep on her own because she had trouble sleeping without it and I was unable to keep waking to do it for her. she does very well self soothing though now.

I have read a lot on pacifier use and I was ok with using it as long as she needed it but it became too much for me. IF it makes you guys happy I'd agree using it is ok. if all else fails you can explain later on to them why they would no longer need it.

Im not sure if she was waking frequently in the night for almost a week now because of the wonder week or because I also started her on Lactulose for constipation around that time too. She's broken out in her first rashes and has some bad reflux now I stopped the meds the day before yesterday and she actually slept over the first time she usually wakes so far. Fingers crossed, I hope she feels better soon.

Yes you have helped me a lot!

[Bella89]

Poor baby I hope everything will settle down soon!
This is how it is unfortunately. One problem down and million to go:(

I hope it will go that way. I could explain to him that he doesn't need it anymore or that he should give it away for his little sister I don't have the heart to listen to him cry when I know he will nap for 2h with it It doesn't make me love waking up 2-3 times/night for repluging though:/

[Azurose]

Well she has been sleeping better now at night anyways. I guess that was the problem. Her poor tummy was upset

Yes, it's not supposed to become an issue for a few years so it's ok by then he could understand I'm sure. Yeah, I couldn't wake at night so much. Now that he can replug it himself Mayne you can try peppering the bed with pacifiers or show him a corner where you place a few that he can find and do it himself?  I also found that tidbit while I was looking around for info

Today I only had 4 hours of sleep and was an angry gibberish spewing zombie lol I told my husband our daughter didn't have her usual 22 hour nap... in which I meant 2 hour first nap that I also usually nap on.

[Bella89]

Yes, I think I will add 1 more paci to his crib as the one just gets lost sometimes;]

I know what you mean. Sometimes, when you just need your sleep the most they just refuse to nap i.e. New Years day;]

[Azurose]

Lol so true

[Bella89]

How are you doing over there?

[Azurose]

Not too well for a while now, her first nap regardless of my attempts at tweaking her awake time or trying wake to sleep has been a consistent 30-35 minutes.  She won't sleep with her pacifier now either, she pulls it out and plays with it.

She is able to go to sleep herself and does every time, shouldn't she be able to get through the transition herself? Or is she somehow stuck? I leave her 15 minutes or more to see if she'll go back to sleep, she plays or fusses and if she does get to sleep she sleeps only a couple minutes.

[Bella89]

There are kids that just don't need much sleep and won't no metter what you do:/

Please, right down her EASY as for right now and maybe we can figure it out.

With the transition, we always have to help them. By putting them down at the right time or with extra routine built around going to bed. If she doesn't want pacifier - that's wonderful! Let's forget it right now before she is 1yo and will demand it

She seems UT to me, but again. I don't know what time that is.
I will try to look at it:)

[Azurose]

Well I tried laying her on her tummy with pacifier, I had to help her a bit and keep her from pulling it out still but she finally had an afternoon nap of 2 hours and 30 minutes.

I bet she's just stuck at the transition and has trouble by herself :/ I don't know how to help her figure it out. I would love to keep her from needing the pacifier, but isn't sleep more important for development? I'm torn

My mother is trying to push her losing the paci, she took ours away at 3 months. But she used a bottle in the crib to make us sleep up until a year old or so. Isn't it like using a pacifier essentially? Or is it easier to wean by just putting water and we gave it up apparently. However my sisters baby is still using a bottle in bed and he's 17 months old wanting it regardless of having milk or not.

A a few minutes after wakeup, she's a bit refluxy so has trouble playing on a full stomach
E she wakes between 600 and 630 but i have been so tired lately I haven't caught the exact time. She eats at 700, 6oz
S if I dont catch the time I lay her down at 800, shes napping at 817.
Y watching to see if she wakes or trying ways to help her sleep longer

The dr said to try feeding her less more frequently for the reflux so I've been feeding her 6 in the morning and night then feeding 5 for the middle feedings every 3 to 3.5 hours. She doesn't often seem excessively hungry because her food takes forever to digest. I know that's not great for getting through to longer naps but I don't know what else to do for the reflux besides getting her medication. I've been trying a little colic calm to help some.

My EASY has been haywire for a while as I try and fix her first nap. Usually if its 30 minutes she'll be ready for a nap 1 hr and 40 mins later or 2 hours but she seems awful cranky by then if its too late. I've been resorting to holding her with her paci for 1 nap if I must to let her have at least 3 hours a day of rest. 30 mins 4 times a day doesn't cut it for her and she has a rough time at bed even with an earlier bedtime.

I just tried laying her on her tummy without her paci for her morning nap. She's asleep but for how long who knows. She always sleeps on her back at night, she does well at night if not overtired, but I'm hoping it'll help her tummy. Supposedly on the belly is good for reflux?

Sorry for the long winded reply lol

[Bella89]

I am so sorry It's not going the easy way for you Hugs

I think I start to understand what you mean. She is pulling the paci out, but cannot fall asleep without it... Loosing the paci at young age is wonderful (I wish I was able to do it with DS - he is 1y and still falls asleep with it), but It's not always possible if we're not persistent enough (like me). The longer you use it, the stronger the attachment to it is in my opinion. But some moms hope they can explain it to their LOs later.
This is just my personal opinion, but I think PACIFIER is way BETTER than bottle to sleep. You will appreciate it more when your DD will have teeth and you will need to worry about bottle cavities:/ Also, you can teach DD to have control over paci while she is not in control of her milk yet:) That is my reasoning.

I would strongly advise against bottle. Rather, try using something else as a dummy. Some kids like it - diaper cloth against her cheek, a blanky. Maybe she would like it better than pacifier.

With belly sleeping position you have to be careful, because especially with reflux babies there is a choking hazard. Ask your doctor's opinion about it. But I understand, that if she likes it, you are less hesitant about it. Can she roll over to her back yet? Have you tried upward positions? Raising a matress a little? Srry, too many questions:)

Yes, her medication is importnant. Doctor's opinion is the most important here.

Please post you whole day routine if you have time along with night feeds. I know you are tired I feel for you...

With her first nap, I would still try to push it, but slowly. Maybe in 10 min increments. I know it seems hard, but it will bring results.

I hope it helped a little.
Hang in there!

[Kellyjs]

Just popping in for some extra support. Bella has given you fantastic advice so far 

Would be great to find out how the last day or two went in real time, so if you could post an easy for us, we can take it from there. Is she on meds for reflux?

One thing i will say is I'm absolutely against having a bottle to go to sleep at night. Milk is far worse for their teeth than a dummy ever will be. If you want to work on getting rid of the dummy, there are ways of doing it, but replacing it with something else, i think would be counterproductive. It's totally up to you though. Have you introduced a lovey at all? Now would be a good time. Even if it's just a muslin square? xx

[Azurose]

I agree that a pacifier is better than a bottle for all those reasons. I had read about such issues and said to her it's like a bottle without milk and she's still is against it. But that's OK because how we raise our DD is up to my husband and I.

I gave her a thin muslin swaddle blanket and her stuffed elephant just now for her Nap with a bit of fussing she went to sleep for 30 minutes of course but without a pacifier. She's awake but calmly playing with the little blanket.

I have a video monitor and watch her closely as she naps just in case it covers her face or when i had put her on her tummy to warch for spit up or her nose being covered. I do not put anything in bed at night time with her.

Today she isn't too keen on tummy sleep lol ever changing. No she cannot roll over yet but not from lack of trying, she almost got herself from front to back but her arm gets in the way. We practice everyday and I think she is really close now.

I'm afraid she will roll down if I put the mattress up some, she moves a lot even on her back lol

Thank you for all of your help Bella

Kelly thank you for your input as well! As soon as this day ends I'll write the EASY on here. No she is not on meds, just trying some of his suggested alternatives for a bit.

She has a stuffed elephant that she naps with. I'm going to look for or make a muslin cloth.

if she doesn't get enough hours during the day she gets extremely overtired and won't sleep at night. so I have started holding her for at least one nap a day. It allows me to keep my sanity as I am prone to have problems with lack of sleep.

This was yesterday
E wakeup at 6:30 eat at 7:00
A
S 8:20 wake at 9:20 or so with interventions trying to extend it
Y

E 10:30
A
S 11:48 wake 12:22
Y

E 1:30
A
S 2:58 wake 4:38 I know it's supposed to be a catnap but I was playing catch up to squeeze in a bit more sleep by holding her
Y

E 5:00
A
S lay down at 7:03 sleep by 7:15 she doesn't use a paci at bedtime so sleeps well if she gets enough nap time. I dream feed her at 10:00 before I go to bed.
Y


This is today
E wake at 7:05 will eat around every 3.5 hours
A
S 9:04 wake at 9:35 or 9:45 I'm not sure I accidentally fell asleep.
Y

E
A
S 11:30 wake periodically until I got her up at 1:00, trying to gently help her nap without paci by taking it out when shes drowsy
Y

E
A
S 3:26 wake 4:10 slept without paci and no wake ups at 30 mins!
Y

E
A
S 6:50
Y

[Kellyjs]

As Bella said, elevating the mattress can help some LO's with reflux... just something to consider?

So she's actually 5mo now isn't she? I wonder if we should just start right at the beginning and try and extend that first nap of the day, wdyt?

You're currently working off 2hrs A. Let's see if adding 15mins onto that first A makes a difference? She may get cranky at the 2hrs mark, but if you can do some low-key A, it'll really help. Even a change of scenery can work wonders too. Dyt you could try that for me and let me know how it goes?

The reason for my thinking is that you managed to get a good sleep later on in the day after 2.5hrs A and that was after a short nap both times, so I think she'll be more than capable of 2hrs 15mins first one xx

[Bella89]

Sending you lots of support!

I really think Kelly is righ. I know it might seem impossible right now, but it is doable and it will work on your benefit. After a week or two (most likely) everything will settle. I know I've been exactly where you are right now. Look at the bigger picture here. Change takes time. Improvement takes time.

I elevated my DS matress first 2 months (but he wasn't moving by then:/) and it helped a lot with reflux.

[Azurose]

Yes I will definitely try elevating her mattress during the day to see how she fares during naps She is 5 months now yes.

Currently she can barely make it to a 2 hour A time in the morning, she appears tired way before then but it does mess up the other naps if she isn't close to 2 hours.

One place I read that sometimes the morning nap is the shortest A time, an hour to fifteen minutes less than usual. Baby sleepsite I think? Could that be part of the case? Is she actually overtired? But as Bella said before it would maker more sense to have a longer wake time in the morning after a long sleep.

Thank you for your support!

She is capable of sleep by herself with little fussing, she is not very intense. Even when she wakes up from a nap sometimes I don't know she is actually awake lol I saw that around 5.5 to 6 months most babies start putting together naps more easily. Since she is still unable to make it to the next sleep cycle without her paci even when I hold her I'll put her in her crib for all her naps. Though I do enjoy her snuggles all in good time!

Edit: Question, would extending awake time make things worse now that she is getting even less sleep because I'm not aiding her? She woke up twice in the night and stayed up for over an hour this last time because she only got 2 hours of day sleep today with 4 30 min naps. Isn't it bad for her development to sleep so much less than average should I wait out the whole deal or try ways to help her sleep such as trying anything but the pacifier like the swing or carrying her in a sling? I feel awful and am afraid she will continue in a loop of over tiredness, being stuck on 30 min forever. Another site says don't use a pacifier as a first resort, rather to use after attempts to resettle. That would still make her dependent on it to transition cycles though right? What should I do?

Ok this morning she seemed really tired of course, I lay her on her crib after only a single hour and she slept for 2 hours... I know that probably won't work again tomorrow if shes better well rested but it does mean if I get timing just right she can on fact make it through transitions with ease.

[Bella89]

First of all, take a step back and think about it. How can you be an awful mother when you have so many concerns and you are trying to make it the best for her? You simply can't be You are doing a great job!!!

Sometimes when we take from many resources and read through so much we get confused. 1 source says something while the other says opposite

About her falling asleep. From what you say she is capable of falling asleep by herself but it takes time. I would just give her that time, because we all need time to learn. This is her time to get to know the proccess. Use a clue- "Mommy if I'm not crying, I'm fine:)" If she cries for help - settle her. If she just lays down - leave her be. It's your job to let her get the timing right, because she can't go to bed herself, but it seems to me that she doesn't need much help with settling. It will take less and less time for her to fall asleep now. You will see.

That's true, it's a vicious cycle. She had gaps in night sleep, so she tried to catch up by extra early nap. Unfortunately, sometimes the only way to break that cycle is to OT them a little to make it better in a long term. Believe me, I've been there. You story sounds exactly like my DS, but I noticed the fact that I have to extend that first A time when he started WU at 4 and made me extremely OT:)

Let me know when she WU tomorrow. If she had 4x30 min naps and is aleep by 7pm today she is tired. She might wake at night, but if she WU tomorrow at 6:30 try not putting her down before 8:30 and aim for 8:45 (asleep, so you can start the routine 15 min earlier). WDYT?

[Azurose]

Thank you Bella, saying that really makes me feel better. I love her and my husband more than anything in this world, I can't stand to see her so unhappy and tired. Right now I feel like crap she's been so sad and crying much more than she used to. It's hard to stick with it, I feel so helpless. Should I hold her and use the paci for 1 nap just to get her out of her ot? Or should I just keep trying?

I agree, much of the info I come across is contradictory. It's difficult knowing what to actually do.

I have noticed an exceptionally early bed makes her wake extra early before. So I do try to stretch it out over the day to make it close to a 700 bed. Later would be great too though. Will OT still be such a big issue as time goes on? Will she be able to handle it better later and be able to sleep longer than 30 mins?

I'm so scared that I'm actually making everything worse for her by not helping her rest at all... she can hardly get by 2 hours now before getting tired. But I keep her up to make it close to the next which being ot makes her Nap short of course.

(1/29/16)
Night waking: 3:00 and 6:00 resleep 6:30
WU :700

Sleep 8:52 (can she stay awake this long after a 30 min stretch like she did?)

WU 9:38 renap 10:04 wake 10:20 (started doing a thing where if she naps 30 mins leave her 30 mins to have her an hour in bed she seems to still be tired of course and naps after a but but supposedly it's supposed to help her not wake after 1 cycle.)

Sleep 11:46 (very fussy prior to this time, if she renapped for a short period would you count the wake time after that nap or the one before? )

Wu 12:26

Sleep 3:35

WU 4:00 around 530 and up she is screaming on and off

Sleep 704

Sorry for all the questions

Edit: I apologize if I seem up and down, I have ppd and it really shows through if I can't sleep. I've been rather hazy lately and I don't know why I didn't extend her first nap further... I totally forgot. Sorry Kelly if it appears I ignored you I will work on a consistent 2 hr 15 min or more first nap. And try for longer during the day. Unless stretching it later in the day is a bad idea to pursue now that she's extremely ot?

[Bella89]

Please, do not appologize. I am here for you because I want to:)You stop worry about us, you worry about you and your baby. Lots of hugs for you. You seem so tired and broken. Believe me it will get better in time, but for now... DO you think there is someone that can help you out? Mother, sister, friend or DH taking a day off to let you catch up on sleep?

Now let me answer some of your questions:

Should I hold her and use the paci for 1 nap just to get her out of her ot? Or should I just keep trying?

If you feel like she is OT and pacifier helps her. If you do not care about paci right now, if she has it or not. By all means use it! When LOs are OT they need some extra help to rest. Let's get her well rested and worry about paci later (but only if you want to do that.

Will OT still be such a big issue as time goes on? Will she be able to handle it better later and be able to sleep longer than 30 mins?

It will last until you get her on the right track. From my experience, it might take max 1 week:/ (it might be 2 days). If you ask in a long run, when LOs are older they take OT better. My 1 yo DS gives me clear signs when needs to lay down so it's easier.

I'm so scared that I'm actually making everything worse for her by not helping her rest at all...

Believe me, you are not. What she needs right now is a predictable day, routine that she will hold on to. That also means that if she has too many opportunities to nap she will just do quick naps.

(1/29/16)
Night waking: 3:00 and 6:00 resleep 6:30
WU :700

Here I have a question for you. Would you be able to start your day at 6 for 3-4 days? It doesn't mean that we want her to WU at 6, it's to let her body know, that if she wakes it's when the day starts (i.e. when my DS WU at 5, I started the day that time and he quickly got the idea). I mean, are you not too tired? Also, I feel like she didn't need that 30min, because when LO renap like that when they need it thay are asleep for 1h-1,5h.

Sleep 8:52 (can she stay awake this long after a 30 min stretch like she did?)

Yes, I am sure that she can, because later in the day she did 3h A time and by this moment she has almost 12h of night sleep:)

Sleep 11:46 (very fussy prior to this time, if she renapped for a short period would you count the wake time after that nap or the one before? )

I personaly count A time from the moment I pick DS from the crib and dress him to when he closes his eyes again. So any awake time between naps I ignore.

Let me sum up. She had 4 naps yesterday that summed up in 2h and 7 min. She has around 11,5h of ONS. Totak 13,5 of day sleep. How much time do you think she needs to be ok, 15 or 16 h? Let's make that happen:)

This is the plan if you want to try 6am:
6:00 WU (maybe she will wake later, who knows) You get up and start your day
8:20 nap1 Let's assume 40min
9-11:20 A
11:20-12:00 nap2 let's assume 40 min again
12-2:20 A
3:00 - 3:40 nap3 she has good A time here, so let's use it in her advantage:)
3:40-6 A time
6:00 you start putting her to bed, bath bottle... Maybe it's early, but it won't last. You'll see how it will shift.

Let me know what you think about it?
You can obviously move everything by 1h if WU at 7.

What do you think about it?
Let me know about how today went.

You can do this Azurose. This is just a part when you have to fight harder. Not for anybody, but for her, for you and your family.
Trust me. There is no 5yo that screems for naps. They just go to bed and say "bye bye mamma, see you tomorrow"

[Azurose]

I'm sorry, it's just I am so glad for the help I don't want it to seem otherwise. Thank you, hugs to you too. I know it'll get better, it has since the newborn stage. My sister offers to watch her for the night but she believes a baby sleeps when they want to. I'm sure if I ask her she could work sone thing out though. My husband works nights but he did try and help me nap during the day but for some reason it Is extremely difficult for me. I have a busy and sensitive mind I guess, even tonight I woke up at 4:00 just because the shower was dripping... lol

I have decided if the paci stays it's ok, I'll keep letting her self sooth for most naps but it'll put my mind at ease.
 
I'm glad it'll get easier I can, but can't wait for then.

Yes I understand fully, I've been trying to get her on schedule but the unpredictability is proving difficult.

Start the day at 6 or whenever she wakes up? Yes I'm very tired by that time, I used to nap when she did which used to be a long while but now I can't. It's getting a bit easier though as time goes on to wake so early. Not necessarily stay awake, but to wake up lol

Ok I'll keep that in mind, that 30 mins of sleep is fine even with a longer A time.

Thank you again for the EASY, it is very helpful

Yes it won't last forever, and I dont think she'll die from lack of sleep so in due time it'll work out. Thank you so much.

(1/31/16)
Wake 622 lay at 830 nap 836 wake 910 nap 1150 wake 1228 renap 1237 wake 1254 nap 324 wake 350 lay at 628 sleep 646 wake 540 wake

1/31/16
6:22 WU
8:36 nap1
9:10-11:20 A
11:50-12:54 nap2 broken in between and used aid
12-2:20 A
3:24 - 3:50 nap3
3:40-6 A time
I lay her down at 6:28 and she slept at 6:44 and she woke up this morning at 5:40. Why would she wake earlier? Maybe I should stick to it and see if she'll sleep 12 hours or is she biologically set to 11 hours? Will keep trying make her wake earlier?

[Bella89]

Yay, great job on these A times yesterday!! 2h 10 min- 3h. How did she take it?
You are doing really good And hey, 6.22 is always better than 6

Why would she wake earlier? Maybe I should stick to it and see if she'll sleep 12 hours or is she biologically set to 11 hours? Will keep trying make her wake earlier?

And here it all starts - the pain of the transition. Unfortunately, it's a very common and normal part of the transition. It was for me and my DS.
What is going on is: She is used to short A times so now she gets tired (I don't think we can call it OT yet) when we try to make them longer. Then she is OT and has an EW. What should happen this week (you should notice it by the end, friday maybe if you keep going) is that she will get use to A times, her naps will be longer (I think she will go up to 50 min, and then we can work on moving from 1 cleep cycle to another), be better rested and sleep better at night.
So, goodbye EW Let's hope it will go our way!
Also, when you will extend A times (around wed or thur you should add another 10 min, whenever you are comfortable with) and the naps will be longer, you will notice that the BT will move closer to 7 or 8 (depending on your family plan). So it will be easier as well.

Does that make sense at all? What do you think?

Yes, lack of sleep is horrible. It gets to us so badly. If you could ask someone to come in, even for the afternoon, so you could take a 1h-2h nap this could help a lot! Also, it's easier for someone else to stick to A time you know? Like, my DH, if I tell him that my DS needs 2h of play time she is up to it! (We would probably rush to the crib with the first yawn:)

I know what you mean with the light sleep. Even when my DH is settling my DS I still don't sleep angry that I would do it better and faster (which is not true ofcourse:)

Keep me posted!

[Azurose]

Thank you, I tried for 2h 20 mins but started her for sleep around 10 to 15 min earlier but she is so tired she falls asleep close to 6 minutes. She doesn't scream like she used to, she just gets really fussy and hyper but I now walk on the eliptical with her in my arms for like 15 20 mins to keep her calm and relax her. Dual purpose though

With the EW should I feed her back to sleep or start the day? Won't it shift everything earlier? If she wakes at 540 should I put her to sleep around 800 or 820 still?

I can't wait until things iron out. If they do lol so much is happening so fast I don't blame her for being wakeful! Lol she rolled from front to back the other day and she's learning to sit up.

I'll try again tomorrow for closer to 2h 20m now that I know it'll take less time to sleep. Do you mean to add a 10 min onto the 2h 20m or add it onto my 2h 10 min now?

That does make sense, I can't wait to see the linger naps lol even if it's only 50m. She's so much happier when shes better rested.

Yes my DH does watch her for me in the mornings to try and let me sleep. And yes I do the same, thinking I could do the routine better or faster! Lol

[Bella89]

I am glad to hear you see some results! Good job there!
If she wakes at 5:40 try to resettle her back to sleep for as long as you think you normaly would. But don't take extra measures like swinging or rocking. If she won't fall back to sleep or you feel like she is ready to play, start the day. But I wouldn't feed her right away. Rather dress her, wash her up and give her some time (if she is not crying out of hunger of course). Around 6:30 I would feed her (Then 6:40 2 days after that, so shift everything in time).

If she wakes 5:40, I would put her down for her nap at 8:00, but if you feel like she is ok - try 8:10. If she is tired, it's better not to push it too much. That time will shift by itself when we add another 10-15 min.

I am not sure if I get you right, but if she has 2h 10 min of play and then you go and it takes 10 min for her to close her eyes, I would add 10 min to her play time. Some LOs do better in 15 min increments. You'll see what you're dealing with.

Let's hope for the best!

[Azurose]

Ok, I will try that next time it happens.

On the EASY schedule it has only 2 hours after wake at 7, how come we are trying to extend that too? To get to 9:00 eventually? What if we make it to where 9 is a nap should I still try for 2 h 20 m even if it's over? Or always get her ready at 9 even if her A time is under 2h?

This is what we had today, I don't think she is quite ready for morning nap being 2h 20m yet she almost fell asleep when I was carrying her but got overtired right as I lay her down and she had trouble getting to sleep.

(2/2/16)
Wake 640 lay at 850 ot nap 910 wake 935 renap 1008 wake 1016 lay at 1240 nap 1243 wake 200 lay at 443 nap 458? wake 519? Lay at 634 sleep 652

Night waking 4:30
6:40 WU
Lay down at 8:50 nap 9:10 OT
9:35 WU
12:43 nap no pacifier, lay in my lap and never woke after 30m
2:00 wu
4:58 nap
5:19 wu
Lay down at 6:34 slept at 6:52
If a day went this way, almost on schedule I thibk should I lay her down a bit later since it takes 20m or so to go to sleep?

 This seems to be helping thank you!

[Bella89]

On the EASY schedule it has only 2 hours after wake at 7, how come we are trying to extend that too? To get to 9:00 eventually? What if we make it to where 9 is a nap should I still try for 2 h 20 m even if it's over? Or always get her ready at 9 even if her A time is under 2h?

Well, the schedule in a book is to give us a guideline. But even if there would be a perfect 4mo baby that would follow it to the letter, a 5mo would be too old for that:) So yes, If she would wake at 7, ultimately you want to extend her morning A time to go over that 9:00, maybe to be 9:30? It depends what your DD is ready for. If you feel like 2h20min is still to much - don't go against your feelings. But remember that not extending it might get you to EW again:/

Wow that was a great nap!! Wonderful. Let's see what happens next. I just hope that great nap was not from OT in the morning. Hmm.

Yes, if you see that she wakes up a little earlier put her down sooner. If she wakes closer to 7 start BT routine later. We don't want her to be OT from a day being too long:/

I'm glad it starts working:) How are you?

[Azurose]

I see, we're more aiming for this right?

A: 7am-10am
S: 10:00-11:30
A: 11:30-2:30
S: 2:30-4pm
A: 4pm-7pm

Yes i will work on 2h 10-15 m for a couple day then try 2h 20 m or more. I see a goal here and we are working towards it!

It couldve been an ot nap, since it was faster and earlier than usual. But I'm glad she got some rest

I am doing better, thank you. still tired but got some sleepiness knocked off.

[Bella89]

That sounds like a good plan:) Great job!

The plan you posted is likely work for an older baby, but yes. It will change in time. Looks great, doesn't it When you start solids, the process will add meals to a plan and she will more likely get to another milk feed too (read: tummy full->better sleep:)

Have a look at average A times:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

Keep me posted!

[Azurose]

Yes that is in the 3-2 nap transition area. Says between 5-8 months is when that should happen. It seems a ways off for her yet

She is definitely interested in solids now, Friday we are going to get the stuff to start her on it. I am so excited!

I hope she gets used to the awake time soon, I will definitely keep you notified on when that happens. thank you!

[Azurose]

It seemed her naps have been lengthening with her longer A time. She finally would have an hour and a half in the afternoon. Her morning nap is a little longer but not quite an hour yet, needs to extend the time even more i am guessing.

Then she got sick and began teething! My poor baby feels miserable. Should I allow her to nap sooner as she is tired from the two or should I try and stick to the schedule? What's best for such situations? Also, how long does it average to cut their first tooth?

Edit: another concern I am having is she started rolling onto her tummy to sleep and I often see her face down or positioned where it looks like she can't breathe...

it's making me wake up periodically through the night worried sick about her. Sometimes I watch and it seems she'll stay there several minutes clearly not getting oxygen until she either moves finally or I get too worried and help her lol

Does she just need to learn how to sleep properly as she had been a back sleeper? It's been a week now but I still worry.

[Bella89]

Hi there!
Glad to hear some good news!!

So it really depends what you wanna do, but when my DS is teething or sick I let him sleep whenever he wants. It's just like us wanting to stay in bed when sick. DS gets to 4h naps a day sometimes then !! And sleeps through the night. Teeth can cause sleepiness and runny nose, so I wonder if it's the illness or just teething. When DS has runny nose his tooth cuts through 1-1.5 weeks later.

There is really no timings when it comes to teeth. They can grow and stop and grow again. I feel like teeth cut through 3 days whick are the worst, but they feel pain way sooner than that. When you see a white bump on a gum means it's almost there.When you see w grey line on that white it's 3 days:) That's how I know, but it's not a rule.Last time I was putting numbing gel on my DS's upper 2 and a lower one cut through, so as you can see I'm not an expert

About rolling over. I think they all go over that 1-2 weeks when they learn how to roll over and get frustrated by it too. Not knowing how to sleep on their tummies. You have to be careful. If you see that she is not handling it well, you have to watch her. My DS was crying histerically wanting for me to roll him back again:/ But maybe she will figure it out sooner than you know! For now, you have to look after her

[Azurose]

I see, I have been letting her sleep when she feels like it now thank you. my husband and I were sick briefly so I wasn't sure if she got it too but it could just be teething as well she doesn't seem sick like we were. She has two little bumps on her upper gum and is very irritable with a runny nose and is having trouble sleeping now. I think she's in some pretty bad pain.

She is avery to roll from both ways so she flips if she wants thank goodness. She also seems to be doing much better with tummy sleep now too.